Disability

[Shamal]

Just thought I would put this out there.

 

There has been a recent thread touching on disabled players. I didn't want to hijack or sidetrack it so have started a new topic.

 

My sisters son,my nephew,is 34 now and he knows I play guns and he has seen my collection and gear and has shown an interest.

 

A while ago he asked me,through his mum, if he would be able to come along to a game day. I say 'through his mum' because he has been profoundly deaf since birth and can only communicate by sign language. I have a limited sign vocabulary,mostly swear words,so I find it hard to talk to him if my sis is not with him.

My sister is not happy about him doing it but I said I would ask my site what they thought about him attending a game.

 

They say that their main concern is that he wouldn't be able to hear the safety briefing or site rules or be aware of what's happening around him.They say it may be possible if someone could sign the briefing for him but that they couldn't be completely sure that he was being given the correct interpretation.

They also say that insurance cover may be an issue.

 

I haven't told him yet what they have said but it doesn't look very promising. I do understand where they are coming from and the difficulties involved. He would have to keep watching me for instructions and I would have to keep looking at him and trying to understand what he is signing and not understanding him 🤔

It's a hard one cause I think he really wants to do it.☹️

 

Anyway what's the collective thoughts on above please 👍

 

Regards 

 

 

 

[GenuineGerman]

That’s quite an upsetting situation for you and him to be in sadly.  I do understand why a site would be reticent to allow him to play however I also believe that he should be given to opportunity to go.

 

Perhaps you could speak the site and they might be willing to arrange a limited skirmish with people that will work at his pace or understanding? 
 

Just an idea really but I do think everyone should be able to enjoy the game but also safely for everyone else. 

[JinxDuh]

My main concern would be the kind of thing where for example a player has lost his eye pro out in the field and everybody is shouting blind man, and he’s still moving around looking to shoot at people because he’s not aware.

Also hit calling, sometimes you don’t feel the hit but hear it. Airsofters tend to get annoyed at hits not being called, even if accidentally. If he had for example a plate carrier on and he got hit and didn’t see the bb bounce off of him I would assume he would carry on like nothing had happened.

 

And marshals not being able to communicate with him if an issue was to arise. 
 

Obviously it’s a really sad situation, and like above I think everybody should be able to partake in the hobby regardless - It might be worth (as again stated above) doing a smaller private game with him so it’s easier on the staff to keep an eye and with people that are understanding of the situation as to not soil his experience. 
 

[Tackle]

@JinxDuh made a great point, get together some friends for a private game, maybe a smaller site or only part of your usual site, & whoever can sign the best shadow him 100% for the day.

Gives him a good taster & you can judge how he'd cope on a larger scale  ?

[JinxDuh]

5 minutes ago, Tackle said:

@JinxDuh made a great point, get together some friends for a private game, maybe a smaller site or only part of your usual site, & whoever can sign the best shadow him 100% for the day.

Gives him a good taster & you can judge how he'd cope on a larger scale  ?

It would also help the site owner/staff I feel too, if they see it is possible and can run smoothly then it’ll be more likely open the door for other people with similar situations.

[Leo Greer]

It's a tough situation to be sure, but I think the best answer is to give him a 100% shadow as Tackle suggests. When the shadow is hit, he has to be out as well, and if he's hit, the shadow is out. I can only imagine how quickly it could go wrong without the ability to communicate. A number of folks at my local site bring along their kids between the ages of 6 and 10, and this is probably a similar situation due to the communication difficulties. Basically, I think you'd need someone to take responsibility for him at all times.

 

The additional difficulty is, of course, your own limited sign language vocabulary, which would likely need to be rectified with written site rules and explanations.

 

It's hard, but I wish you good luck! I think almost everyone should be able to enjoy airsoft safely, and this is a barrier that can be overcome.

[hitmanNo2]

Just have him read the safety brief off some paper/device...Hardly a deal breaker.

 

I don't see it being a problem really.  Just brush up on your infantry field hand signals and go through them with him.

 

Make up some extra airsoft specific ones for ceasefire, fire (burning) etc.  Easy.

[Rogerborg]

CQB would be a mare but woodland might be do-able.

 

Kid-wrangling rules would apply: you'd need to be with him all the time, and if he's out, you're out (although not necessarily the other way around).

 

If they don't have a written safety brief, this would be an opportunity for them to remedy that.  Heck, you could write down what they've been telling you and give it to them.

 

Overshooting might be an issue, he'd need to be made very aware of the need to look out for bands, hands and postures.

 

Cease-fire / man-down shouts would be my big concern.  You'd want to agree some unambiguous signs for the safety critical stuff.

 

Individual game briefs, get a small whiteboard and write down a precis.  Heck, it'll be useful to remind the marshals what's going on.

 

A little preparation can go a long way.

 

 

[hitmanNo2]

32 minutes ago, Rogerborg said:

Individual game briefs, get a small whiteboard and write down a precis.  Heck, it'll be useful to remind the marshals what's going on.

Beneficial to everyone I think.  The number of times you step into the game zone and someone turns to you and asks, "what are we doing?" or "where are we going?" Which was literally just explained to everyone 60 seconds ago.

[Tactical Pith Helmet]

Written brief etc and someone with him I'd say.  You can worry to much too.  He's survived to 34 without being able to hear warning shouts etc.

 

Appropriate dress to feel hits, a companion and very importantly, 'we have a deaf player today. He has as much right to enjoy the day as the rest of us, so help him by waving your hand clearly as well as calling hit.  If you don't, don't cry to us if you're overshot,' during briefing.  You could compile a notebook of obvious phrases, or pics to use and hand them to the marshals.  Get everyone to draw a thumb across the throat for 'you're dead' use military hand signals between the two of you.  

 

On a similar note; a lass who worked in a local pub was a sign interpreter.  She used to teach us to order ale in sign.  It taught us quite a vocabulary (think daft real ale names).  It was pretty easy too when used for something that you understood and needed to do.  It was fun too, pissed blokes miming 'three pints of Old Cripple Cock, please love.'  I used to be able to sign most of the alphabet for words that I didn't know.  I've forgotten all of it over the last 20 years, but we all could know a bit I think.  I expect that there's a few online courses about.  

 

Just a few ideas, I expect that some will be well wide of the individual mark, not knowing the chap.  Players will forget and get it wrong around him, but they do already with the hearing, and that doesn't stop us.  

 

Hope you and his mates can sort something out and enjoy the day together. 

[Tackle]

Or you could do what I threatened my son with, if he starts running off all Sgt Elias, or you just need to get his attention,  quick buzz on a shock collar would do the trick, they can be set just to vibrate, or if he still doesn't respond, turn up the voltage & take him down like Frank The Tank 😜

(Too much too soon😏)

[Sewdhull]

His deafness isn't an issue is it? Reasonable accommodations can be made, visual signs rather than audible etc. It's no big deal in something like Airsoft.

If he can read, he can understand a briefing, or perhaps lip read. Most Comms issues I've seen with the deaf are the non deaf persons issue.

Worried about him not calling his hits?

A proper briefing seems like a good idea.

Some of the stuff above is patronising rubbish.

 

[Tackle]

1 minute ago, Sewdhull said:

 

Some of the stuff above is patronising rubbish.

 

You gotta see it from Shamals point of view, his sis doesn't want her son to go, & God forbid a hair on his head is harmed, Shamal won't hear the last of it, & the guys are just trying to cover all the bases , after all, don't think any of us have ever come across a profoundly deaf player, it's a pretty unique situation.

[Sewdhull]

If his only issue is that he can't hear, then it's down to the 34 year old man what he does. Not his sister.

If there's more than the deafness things might be different, but there's nothing to suggest that.

I mean his mum, your sister....

 

Edited April 10 by Sewdhull

[mrfoxhound]

3 hours ago, Shamal said:

Just thought I would put this out there.

 

There has been a recent thread touching on disabled players. I didn't want to hijack or sidetrack it so have started a new topic.

 

My sisters son,my nephew,is 34 now and he knows I play guns and he has seen my collection and gear and has shown an interest.

 

A while ago he asked me,through his mum, if he would be able to come along to a game day. I say 'through his mum' because he has been profoundly deaf since birth and can only communicate by sign language. I have a limited sign vocabulary,mostly swear words,so I find it hard to talk to him if my sis is not with him.

My sister is not happy about him doing it but I said I would ask my site what they thought about him attending a game.

 

They say that their main concern is that he wouldn't be able to hear the safety briefing or site rules or be aware of what's happening around him.They say it may be possible if someone could sign the briefing for him but that they couldn't be completely sure that he was being given the correct interpretation.

They also say that insurance cover may be an issue.

 

I haven't told him yet what they have said but it doesn't look very promising. I do understand where they are coming from and the difficulties involved. He would have to keep watching me for instructions and I would have to keep looking at him and trying to understand what he is signing and not understanding him 🤔

It's a hard one cause I think he really wants to do it.☹️

 

Anyway what's the collective thoughts on above please 👍

 

Regards 

 

 

 

the site should have a written brief for the safety brief , always print it out for him to read , apart from that they shouldn't have a problem. 

[Jez_Armstrong]

Most airsofters are fucking deaf anyway as if they listen to the saftey brief or listen out for hits 😂

 

But I wonder if it's worth looking up a laser tag site near you, I hear the the gear they use now has a shock/ vibration vest that are better than the crap from the old days so when you get "hit" so he can feel it,

 

That way he can experience the same sort of thing we do and he will be a bit more safe and still run around and shoot guns with you and you can use it as a stepping stone/practice to get him to airsoft 

Edited April 11 by Jez_Armstrong
My spelling is terrible

[Pseudotectonic]

(most already pointed out above)

 

"Reasonable adjustments" is a legal duty, so the site will pretty much have to do it, even tho understandably it may be a hassle.

 

Printing out safety briefing is very easily done and not at all unreasonable.

 

Make it known to the other players so they can understand the situation and adjust their expectations with hit calling.

 

Marshals can keep an eye out in-game and pay a bit more attention and watch out for hit calling / issues with other players, again not difficult to do and something they should already be doing anyway.

 

On the deaf person side, wear non-padded clothing for hit detection, so preferably a minimal loadout like a belt rig perhaps.

 

Put up his arm for hit calling, not necessary through shouting "hit". Same for his targets, just watch for hands raising.

 

A shadow is a good idea, just so he can receive grenades and announcements and so on, and have a "translator" just in case.

 

I think there are probably situations where playing as a duo is actually an advantage.

 

His biggest enemy may actually be a fogging eye pro. May be a chance for him to fully embrace the speedsoft look and get a dye mask (which I heard is good with fogging).

[DanBow]

10 hours ago, Rogerborg said:

A little preparation can go a long way.

 

 

That episode did, and still does, give me the absolute screaming heebiejeebies!!!!!!!

Edited April 11 by DanBow

[Rogerborg]

10 hours ago, Sewdhull said:

Some of the stuff above is patronising rubbish.

 

There are legitimate concerns with not being able to hear or convey safety-critical information. These can be overcome, but it's hardly patronising to consider and enumerate what adjustment need to be made, and the reasonableness of them (and I think they are reasonable, and it is doable).

 

Perhaps it might be an idea to ask the chap what information he needs, and how he'd prefer to receive it.  As you say, he's been dealing with this all his life.

[Tackle]

5 hours ago, Rogerborg said:

Perhaps it might be an idea to ask the chap what information he needs, and how he'd prefer to receive it.  As you say, he's been dealing with this all his life.

Another very good point, OP's initial post reads like a young man who's vulnerable, & a mum who's understandably protective, hence most of our replies, but if he's managed to get to 34 without being hit by a bus or other heinous accidents, he's doing something right.

The point @Pseudotectonic about eyepro fogging etc is also very relevant,  most of us struggle if it happens, partially losing a sense, imagine it happening with no hearing too, maybe a good dye mask or one of those fencing style mesh masks are an option.

Yeah I know some don't like the mesh kit, but I've been using it for years without an issue, my eyes are fine, everything else is fooked but my eyes are ok 🤒

[Shamal]

15 hours ago, Sewdhull said:

If his only issue is that he can't hear, then it's down to the 34 year old man what he does. Not his sister.

If there's more than the deafness things might be different, but there's nothing to suggest that.

I mean his mum, your sister....

 

 

15 hours ago, Sewdhull said:

His deafness isn't an issue is it? Reasonable accommodations can be made, visual signs rather than audible etc. It's no big deal in something like Airsoft.

If he can read, he can understand a briefing, or perhaps lip read. Most Comms issues I've seen with the deaf are the non deaf persons issue.

Worried about him not calling his hits?

A proper briefing seems like a good idea.

Some of the stuff above is patronising rubbish.

 

Hi and thanks for your input 🙂

Well yeah I guess his deafness is the issue really. If he was hearing there would be no issue.

Yes he is a grown man and able to make his own decisions but you have to understand that from a kid he has had to grow and learn in a different world,a silent world, relying on certain people to teach him a special language. He lives and works in a deaf community so pretty much everyone talks the same language and he is in his comfort zone, obviously he does have contact with hearing people who do not sign but it's difficult for him as it is for me to communicate with him. 

 

I don't think any of the posts have been patronising and I don't think he would either. There have been some great replies with things I hadn't thought of which was the purpose of the thread.

 

I shall take every one's advice and ideas on board and will speak to my site again and put some of your suggestions forward🙂

 

Thanks guys 👍

 

Regards 

15 hours ago, mrfoxhound said:

the site should have a written brief for the safety brief , always print it out for him to read , apart from that they shouldn't have a problem. 

Good idea. Thanks

5 hours ago, Rogerborg said:

 

There are legitimate concerns with not being able to hear or convey safety-critical information. These can be overcome, but it's hardly patronising to consider and enumerate what adjustment need to be made, and the reasonableness of them (and I think they are reasonable, and it is doable).

 

Perhaps it might be an idea to ask the chap what information he needs, and how he'd prefer to receive it.  As you say, he's been dealing with this all his life.

You are spot on.... Ask him what he needs......see I'm too busy thinking about myself and how I will handle it. Yeah good call.

[Sewdhull]

I'm not deaf, so i can't say how it affects someone. 

 

Here we are( sorry) ranking the problems we perceive that a deaf a person would have in our game and how it affects us and them. Only the deaf person can say really.

 

One of the main issues I have seen is social isolation, get him out playing a game, if he cant hear his hits (that tickled me) shoot him again for example. Speech to text is widely available so he can read the chat going on around him at lunch or whatever. I'm sure he can figure stuff out, its clunky compared to just speaking but perfectly serviceable.

 

Nothing wrong being out of a comfort zone... unless you don't want to be.

 

 

[Pseudotectonic]

Actually, why not invite him in here for a chat

[Shamal]

13 minutes ago, Pseudotectonic said:

Actually, why not invite him in here for a chat

That's not too shabby an idea bud 👍

Now I'm armed with a few pointers, I will talk to my site again and if they are ok I shall get him to join up.🙂

[Sewdhull]

4 hours ago, Pseudotectonic said:

Actually, why not invite him in here for a chat

Yes this.