Friend's Mum UKARA Membership

[mosesman831]

Dear Airsoft Community,

 

As I do not have a UKARA membership, but would like to buy a RIF, will it be possible to use my friend's mum's UKARA membership to buy the gun for me without two tone, and still be legal to use?

 

Thank you.

[Tackle]

No, definitely not. 

But if your friends mum wanted to buy it & then gift it to you, that would be fine, just so long as no money changes hands. 

 

Although, How you show your gratitude to your mates mum is between you two 😏. 

 

😜

[gavinkempsell]

13 minutes ago, Tackle said:

How you show your gratitude to your mates mum is between you two

Still illegal... payment in kind.

[mosesman831]

So I can still play with it legally?

 

14 minutes ago, Tackle said:

No, definitely not. 

But if your friends mum wanted to buy it & then gift it to you, that would be fine, just so long as no money changes hands. 

 

Although, How you show your gratitude to your mates mum is between you two 😏. 

 

😜

 

[Neptune]

1 hour ago, mosesman831 said:

Dear Airsoft Community,

 

As I do not have a UKARA membership, but would like to buy a RIF, will it be possible to use my friend's mum's UKARA membership to buy the gun for me without two tone, and still be legal to use?

 

Thank you.

So this friend's Mum buys it, and then you buy it from them? If so and the RIF is to be used for an actual insured airsoft site, then yes, that's fine, she will have a defence.

 

But if you mean play in the back garden, then no.

[Tackle]

1 hour ago, gavinkempsell said:

Still illegal... payment in kind.

But it happens all the time with no legal complications........ 

 

 

On Pornhub🤣

[Tactical Pith Helmet]

UKARA is hardly difficult to register with.  Play a few hire games, see if you like the hobby properly and then apply yourself.  If you are using the rifs legitimately, UKARA is no problem at all. 

[Tackle]

15 minutes ago, Neptune said:

So this friend's Mum buys it, and then you buy it from them? If so and the RIF is to be used for an actual insured airsoft site, then yes, that's fine, she will have a defence.

Dude, if your gonna give advice on a public forum, make sure you know what your talking about. 

The op cannot purchase a rif, he has no defence of any sort, he's never played before, & the tone of his posts indicates to me that he's probably under 18.

The absolute only way he can get a rif without infringing on the vcra is if it's gifted to him, with no payment of any sort, my earlier comments were purely banter. 

Personally I'm not a believer in the vcra as a way to legitimately curtail gun crime, & if people with 100% honourable intentions want to sensibly fiddle with the grey areas in order to use rifs on an insured skirmish field, good luck to them as long as they use common sense at all times. 

 

OBVIOUSLY I WOULD NEVER EVER RECOMMEND THAT COURSE OF ACTION ON A PUBLIC FORUM. 😏

[Cannonfodder]

1 minute ago, Tactical Pith Helmet said:

UKARA is hardly difficult to register with.  Play a few hire games, see if you like the hobby properly and then apply yourself.  If you are using the rifs legitimately, UKARA is no problem at all. 

The OP is 14 according to his previous posts so wouldn't be able to get on the ukara database, hence why he's looking for loopholes

1 hour ago, gavinkempsell said:

Still illegal... payment in kind.

Along with being a bit Jimmy Savile 

5 minutes ago, Tackle said:

the tone of his posts indicates to me that he's probably under 18.

He's 14 so even selling him a 2 tone is a no no

[Rogerborg]

The legal position:

 

You're 14. It's an offence for you to buy any imitation firearm, realistic or otherwise, or for anyone to sell one to you.  The only way you can get one without an offence being committed is to be gifted it.  At the point of transfer to you, it doesn't matter if it's realistic or not (because of your age), only that nothing changes hands from you to the person gifting it.

 

 

The practical position:

 

Once a realistic imitation firearm has been sold by a retailer, the State won't take any interest in where it's transferred later, as long as it's used sensibly.  If it never gets taken outside to show off to your mates, no problem. If it's taken in a bag, in a private vehicle, to and from an airsoft site, nobody will ever care, and nobody at the site will ask how you got it.

 

 

The dad position:

 

Talk to your parents about owning and using an airsoft gun, and getting to and from sites. Whether you can get a gun, and whether you should get one, is really down to them.  I'd repeat the advice to go and play airsoft as a rental at least once before thinking about buying anything.  It's a great hobby, but it's not cheap, and YouTube videos can give a false impression of the reality.  The classifieds are full of guns that were bought on a whim and then never actually used to play. Don't be that person.

[Tackle]

@Cannonfodder, cheers mate, talk about kill the mood, now everytime I think about his mates mum, I picture a woman that looks like Jimmy Saville 🤢🤮

 

 

🤣

[Neptune]

18 minutes ago, Tackle said:

Dude, if your gonna give advice on a public forum, make sure you know what your talking about. 

The op cannot purchase a rif, he has no defence of any sort, he's never played before, & the tone of his posts indicates to me that he's probably under 18.

The absolute only way he can get a rif without infringing on the vcra is if it's gifted to him, with no payment of any sort, my earlier comments were purely banter. 

Personally I'm not a believer in the vcra as a way to legitimately curtail gun crime, & if people with 100% honourable intentions want to sensibly fiddle with the grey areas in order to use rifs on an insured skirmish field, good luck to them as long as they use common sense at all times. 

 

OBVIOUSLY I WOULD NEVER EVER RECOMMEND THAT COURSE OF ACTION ON A PUBLIC FORUM. 😏

I do know what I'm talking about, the law is there for anyone to read, posted at the bottom. He stated to 'use' which is the key part, because what is done with the RIF is the difference. Airsoft is covered, but plinking in the back garden isn't. The offence is committed by the seller, but they have a defence if the RIF is to be used for airsoft/re-enactment etc. UKARA is not a legal requirement. Having played before is also not a legal requirement.

 

If he's under 18 then that's that, thread over, but I only can only reply based on what he said.

 

The law:

Quote

A person is guilty of an offence if—

(c)he sells a realistic imitation firearm; or

 

...

 

3.—(1) It shall be a defence in proceedings for an offence under section 36 of the 2006 Act or under paragraph 4 of Schedule 2 to that Act for the person charged with the offence to show that his conduct was for the purpose only of making the imitation firearm in question available for one or more of the purposes specified in paragraph (2).

(2) Those purposes are—

(a)the organisation and holding of permitted activities for which public liability insurance is held in relation to liabilities to third parties arising from or in connection with the organisation and holding of those activities;

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/38/part/2/crossheading/imitation-firearms

Edited December 1, 2023 by Neptune

[Cannonfodder]

5 minutes ago, Tackle said:

a woman that looks like Jimmy Saville 🤢🤮

 

[mosesman831]

11 minutes ago, Rogerborg said:

The legal position:

 

You're 14. It's an offence for you to buy any imitation firearm, realistic or otherwise, or for anyone to sell one to you.  The only way you can get one without an offence being committed is to be gifted it.  At the point of transfer to you, it doesn't matter if it's realistic or not (because of your age), only that nothing changes hands from you to the person gifting it.

 

 

The practical position:

 

Once a realistic imitation firearm has been sold by a retailer, the State won't take any interest in where it's transferred later, as long as it's used sensibly.  If it never gets taken outside to show off to your mates, no problem. If it's taken in a bag, in a private vehicle, to and from an airsoft site, nobody will ever care, and nobody at the site will ask how you got it.

 

 

The dad position:

 

Talk to your parents about owning and using an airsoft gun, and getting to and from sites. Whether you can get a gun, and whether you should get one, is really down to them.  I'd repeat the advice to go and play airsoft as a rental at least once before thinking about buying anything.  It's a great hobby, but it's not cheap, and YouTube videos can give a false impression of the reality.  The classifieds are full of guns that were bought on a whim and then never actually used to play. Don't be that person.

Thank you for the simple answer.

 

8 minutes ago, Tackle said:

@Cannonfodder, cheers mate, talk about kill the mood, now everytime I think about his mates mum, I picture a woman that looks like Jimmy Saville 🤢🤮

 

 

🤣

No, not that bad...

[Tackle]

1 hour ago, Neptune said:

I do know what I'm talking about, the law is there for anyone to read, posted at the bottom. He stated to 'use' which is the key part, because what is done with the RIF is the difference. Airsoft is covered, but plinking in the back garden isn't. The offence is committed by the seller, but they have a defence if the RIF is to be used for airsoft/re-enactment etc. UKARA is not a legal requirement. Having played before is also not a legal requirement.

 

If he's under 18 then that's that, thread over, but I only can only reply based on what he said.

 

The law:

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/38/part/2/crossheading/imitation-firearms

You read all the same text as me, but I was able to deduce that it was highly likely he was a kid (no offence op), there's the first no-no. 

Regarding the legal text as to "use" & being satisfied of said use, the seller cannot knowingly guarantee the op has the best intentions, he doesn't reside within the same household & a court would likely argue that the word of a developing teenager wouldn't be enough to guarantee a rif would be kept appropriately. 

 

Let's be honest about it, even the gifting clause was never meant for anything more than a parent to buy their offspring the equipment to enable them to play together, who's ever gonna spend £150+ on a rif & freely give it to someone else's kid, that sounds more like grooming to me. 

 

The law on airsoft rifs isn't perfect, & can be difficult to navigate, especially when every month or two forums such as this get enquiries about how to circumnavigate the law, sometimes new players who  genuinely want to get in to playing, & sometimes blatantly just want a rif, often with no wish to follow a lawful route to ownership & who I frankly wouldn't trust to not wave it around in public at the first opportunity. 

I personally feel that the genuine players amongst us have a moral obligation, just meeting the vcra requirement verbatim isn't necessarily enough, all too easy to sell to a legal but clearly irresponsible buyer, who's actions down the road might affect all of us & our ability to play (to that end, on the rare occasions I've sold a rif, even pre vcra, I look at post content etc, might sound a bit 1984 but that's my choice). 

The flip side is I've known plenty of mature teens who I would trust to behave properly. 

[Rogerborg]

1 hour ago, Neptune said:

If he's under 18 then that's that, thread over, but I only can only reply based on what he said.

 

Well, you could have checked his activity and found out that he's 14. 

 

Nothing wrong with that, we've all been 14. The trigger doesn't care, and anyone who calls their hits is welcome.  Just be circumspect about how the RIF/IF gets to site, and be very aware that having any imitation firearm (realistic or otherwise) in a public place is an offence that needs a reasonable excuse, the proof whereof lies with you.  Going to or from an airsoft site is reasonable, showing it off to your mates isn't.

 

It's not so much how you get it as what you do with it that matters.

 

[Cannonfodder]

To me the moment anyone starts  actively looking for loopholes to get their hands on a rif/if when they legally shouldn't be able to is a massive red flag. 

[EDcase]

Duno if mosesman831 is still around but the short version is; A UKARA member CAN buy a 'Realistic Imitation Firearm' (RIF) and GIFT it to you as a present.

Only the UKARA member can purchase a RIF.

BUT if it is seen in public or even reported by neighbours when using it at home then the Police will get involved and the person who gave it to you could get in trouble.

If you accidentally shoot someone in the eye or a pet etc then jail time could be involved for the person who gave it to you.

 

So if you do get one you'll have to be very responsible and treat it like a real firearm, including gun safety and avoiding any public person seeing it.  If you want to use it in the garden then best to let the neighbours know its not real. (Legally a BB is not allowed to leave your property)

 

If you want to actually play airsoft you will be allowed to use it at a game site with no questions where you got it.  As long as you have good eye and face protection.  You'll  probably need a full face mask as you're 14.

 

 

Edited December 2, 2023 by EDcase

[Pseudotectonic]

Yes you can still play with it without UKARA

 

The question is only related to how you got it in the first place

 

The only legal route would be she give it to you as a gift

 

But after you got it, you can go to a field and play with it no problem

[Neptune]

9 hours ago, Tackle said:

...

I don't know what his intentions are, he mentions 'use' and 'play' (airsoft?), which is why I specified the two legal legal outcomes depending on what it is.

 

 

5 hours ago, EDcase said:

Only the UKARA member can purchase a RIF.

 

No, UKARA is just a scheme for retailers that makes it easier for them to sell to, presumably, the right people. It's handy to have but you can purchase without it.

[Tackle]

9 hours ago, EDcase said:

Duno if mosesman831 is still around but the short version is; A UKARA member CAN buy a 'Realistic Imitation Firearm' (RIF) and GIFT it to you as a present.

Only the UKARA member can purchase a RIF.

BUT if it is seen in public or even reported by neighbours when using it at home then the Police will get involved and the person who gave it to you could get in trouble.

If you accidentally shoot someone in the eye or a pet etc then jail time could be involved for the person who gave it to you.

 

So if you do get one you'll have to be very responsible and treat it like a real firearm, including gun safety and avoiding any public person seeing it.  If you want to use it in the garden then best to let the neighbours know its not real. (Legally a BB is not allowed to leave your property)

 

If you want to actually play airsoft you will be allowed to use it at a game site with no questions where you got it.  As long as you have good eye and face protection.  You'll  probably need a full face mask as you're 14.

 

 

Completely agree, 100%, you give a kid a rifle & they fuck up, gotta take part of the blame for not driving home the responsibility of gun ownership. 

My son was around 9 when he first attended a skirmish, presented himself well, obeyed the rules & didn't let me down. 

BUT, he has an annoying habit of saying "I know" when your telling him something important that needs to sink in (I blame his mother lol), so when I bought him his first rif & gave him "the talk", & he said "I know", I made the conscious decision to allow him to keep his guns in his room, secured in gun bags, but with no bb's, batteries, or gas, that way I wouldn't have to replace any flat screen tvs, or explain to his mates parents why their lad lost an eye. 

Fast forward, the rules still apply, he's 26 & still lives at home, & has quite a few rifs. 

Some might say I've been too controlling on this, but to explain a parable situation, he's been with his longtime gf bout 6 years, pair of total nerds who would always both admit to having no maternal instincts, never wanting kids, so I'd always warn him "belt & braces son, take nothing for granted", & of course his default response would as always was "I know", & I'd roll my eyes lol. 

BUT I now have a 3yo granddaughter, love her to bits but who was right, me ffs😤. 

 

I think when it comes to involving anybody else in ANY shooting/projectile pastimes, whether that person is young or old, I take the same attitude as when I'm driving/riding, assume everyone else around you is an idiot lol. 

[EDcase]

5 hours ago, Neptune said:

INo, UKARA is just a scheme for retailers that makes it easier for them to sell to, presumably, the right people. It's handy to have but you can purchase without it.

Yeah, technically true but how many people actually  use the other defences 🤨

[Tackle]

4 minutes ago, EDcase said:

Yeah, technically true but how many people actually  use the other defences 🤨

LOL, I made my own defence, seems to satisfy people. 😁

[Pseudotectonic]

[Rogerborg]

On 02/12/2023 at 00:23, Cannonfodder said:

To me the moment anyone starts  actively looking for loopholes to get their hands on a rif/if when they legally shouldn't be able to is a massive red flag. 

 

I'd argue that asking if they can is a better sign than not asking at all.