TRMR Stolen.

[Cannonfodder]

2 hours ago, Rogerborg said:

 

Under threat of what action?

 

Under those circumstances I'd be happy to be searched - I might even volunteer for it to set an example - but I'm leaving when I'm leaving. My liberty is worth more than your property.

No idea, I didn't ask. However wanting to leave then would probably raise suspicions, whether or not that would be enough to detain someone I don't know.

 

A few of us did volunteer. For me it was simply a case of getting it out of the way to get games started again quicker

 

How would you feel if it was your property stolen?

Edited August 29, 2023 by Cannonfodder

[rj1986]

On 27/08/2023 at 17:58, Rogerborg said:

 

Alternatively, someone trying to be helpful had moved it to where they thought it would be easy to find.

 

As another example of decent site running, the Depot 1.0 exhorted people not to do this, because folk will look for them on the ground where they threw them, not at eye level somewhere else.

Yeah i site i used to play at that closed specially mentioned never to touch them - 1 for safety (could be a delayed timer or hang fire) and 2 if i've thrown it into a room, i go into said room looking for where i threw it.

[Shamal]

9 hours ago, Cannonfodder said:

 

 

Goodwin's law

 

Agreed. To many people nowadays think they can treat others like shit and then get all upset when they get the same treatment back. I'm willing to bet that those complaining or refusing wouldn't have the same attitude if it was their property that was nicked

 

This reminds me of an incident many years ago at electrowerkz. Part way through the evening a player realised his wallet had gone walkies. Staff were informed and as it happened a few of the regulars were serving police officers. An announcement was made about what had happened, that nobody would be leaving and unless the wallet turned up they would start searches of kit and people. Fortunately said wallet did turn up and games started up again.

Yep same thing happened once at the prison in old Pompey.£20 went missing.

Boss man made the announcement that if it was returned all's well. It was returned. I vocalised that if the person that took it was known,then he/she should not be welcomed back.I recall that that opinion was met with mixed murmers.

 

We invest a lot of money in gear and then just go off and leave it.

 

Airsoft is built on trust and honesty and I for one would like it to stay that way.🙂

 

Regards 

[Colin Allen]

45 minutes ago, Shamal said:

Yep same thing happened once at the prison in old Pompey.£20 went missing.

Boss man made the announcement that if it was returned all's well. It was returned. I vocalised that if the person that took it was known,then he/she should not be welcomed back.I recall that that opinion was met with mixed murmers.

 

We invest a lot of money in gear and then just go off and leave it.

 

Airsoft is built on trust and honesty and I for one would like it to stay that way.🙂

 

Regards 

Damn right; anyone who has stolen from other players should not be welcome at any site.

I don't know if it still exists, but there used to be a FB group where site owners/managers shared details of the more problematic players, who tended to find themselves unwelcome wherever they tried to go.

[Rogerborg]

10 hours ago, Cannonfodder said:

How would you feel if it was your property stolen?

 

Saaaad. 😢

 

If you're reaching for "... so wouldn't you want everyone lined up and strip searched?" then no. I'm prepared to accept a certain amount of risk on the understanding that humans are awful, and airsofters are a subset of humans.

[EDcase]

I agree with searches when things go missing.  Its an unfortunate necessity to deal with assholes who usually get away with it.  

The good thing is that if a site had the reputation of searches when things go missing, I bet that site would have fewer incidents.

[Rogerborg]

On 29/08/2023 at 19:14, Colin Allen said:

Damn right; anyone who has stolen from other players should not be welcome at any site.

 

My assumption is that thefts are predominantly carried out by rentals or one-and-done visitors to a site.  And further, that they'll already be off site, or have secreted the gear somewhere, by the time "missing" resolves into "stolen", and a search is announced.

 

I could very well be wrong, but has anyone ever seen a search actually turn up stolen gear on the person, or in the bag, of a thief?  If so, what followed?

[Cannonfodder]

Personally in the unfortunate event of something going walkies I'd like sites to at least try to help, rather than shrug their shoulders and so their best impression of BSM Williams 

[gavinkempsell]

4 hours ago, Rogerborg said:

My assumption is that thefts are predominantly carried out by rentals or one-and-done visitors to a site.

Why?

 

I've worked in retail for nearly 40 years & 'friends, colleagues & customers' get caught stealing.

 

in other words, anyone is capable of theft, but not everyone will.

[Davet]

On 29/08/2023 at 12:31, Cannonfodder said:

No idea, I didn't ask. However wanting to leave then would probably raise suspicions, whether or not that would be enough to detain someone I don't know.

 

A few of us did volunteer. For me it was simply a case of getting it out of the way to get games started again quicker

I imagine, if there were (off-duty) police officers present, they could probably utilise their Stop/Search powers under s1 of PACE.

[Tackle]

Bit of a grey area, I believe pace can only be applied by officers "on" duty, and/or, following an official report of a crime. 

That said, the only people to object usually would be:

A. YouTube auditors

B. GenZ snowflakes 

C. CRIMINAL CNUTS

 

All of the above deserve internal cavity searches, ideally by someone with hands like Pat Jennings 😈

[Gryph]

45 minutes ago, Davet said:

I imagine, if there were (off-duty) police officers present, they could probably utilise their Stop/Search powers under s1 of PACE.

Absolutely could, yeah

[Davet]

35 minutes ago, Tackle said:

Bit of a grey area, I believe pace can only be applied by officers "on" duty, and/or, following an official report of a crime. 

Never truly off duty, there’s a legal obligation under Police Regs. PACE s1 can be applied anytime as long as there’s a suspicion somebody may have/be about to commit an offence - see all the media outrage over use of S&S by the Met Police…!

[Tackle]

34 minutes ago, Davet said:

Never truly off duty, there’s a legal obligation under Police Regs. PACE s1 can be applied anytime as long as there’s a suspicion somebody may have/be about to commit an offence - see all the media outrage over use of S&S by the Met Police…!

That's been a bone of contention for decades, literally going back to the "sus laws", that were eventually outlawed (but not really lol). 

[hunter511]

Yeah the job guys at the Werkz were fairly involved in dealing with thefts and general fuckery as I recall. IIRC a few of them.were SO19 and the standing 'agreement' was if you were post chrono found playing with a hot gun your choices were "leave, now" or "your kit will be confiscated by someone with a warrant card and go to the ballistics lab for testing".

 

I do remember one of them on the phone to the BTP after someone got mughed on the way there and the BTP were more worried about the fact he had a couple of airsoft guns in a bag than the scrote that pulled a knife on him...... that was an interesting phone call to hear.

 

Either way 1) I do miss the Werkz. 2) As far as Im concerned as soon as stuff goes missing the site should take steps. I was there when the guys at combat south urban locked the doors and went straight to 'either the missing BFG appears or the door stays locked'. Oddly it was found...... about 200 metres and several solid walls from were it went missing.

 

As Ive mentioned on here before (having had a dynatex vanish from the one really well lit and hole free part of The Mall) the one thing that really grips my shit with sites is when the approach taken by staff to items dissappearing is "meh' it'll turn up" or similar.

[Cannonfodder]

5 minutes ago, hunter511 said:

IIRC a few of them.were SO19

Didn't know about that but from what I remember one was MoD police

[hunter511]

Yeah the guys who occasionally showed up in blue kit and owned the site using actual CQB tactics etc were firearms officers.

[Gryph]

2 hours ago, Davet said:

Never truly off duty, there’s a legal obligation under Police Regs. PACE s1 can be applied anytime as long as there’s a suspicion somebody may have/be about to commit an offence - see all the media outrage over use of S&S by the Met Police…!

You're absolutely right, bobbies are never off duty. When it comes to the practical side though it's a bit trickier - most people won't use their powers off duty unless it's to save life or limb because it generally causes more harm than good, especially with what's been going on in the news recently!

[Rogerborg]

Riddle me this: what happens when a site declares that it's going into lockdown and nobody is leaving until the thief hands over the stolen TRMR.

 

... when the "stolen" TRMR just rolled into a dark spot somewhere on site?

 

Don't get me wrong, things do get stolen and I'd be happy to see thieves' hands removed.  But before you go depriving people of liberty, you need to be sure of the situation, and consider the endgame.

 

You're shopping at Tesco, and the tannoy blares "Mrs Miggins says she can't find her purse that was definitely in her bag when she came in, maybe, so we're locking the doors and nobody is leaving until you've all been searched."

 

Reasonable? 🤷‍♂️

[pedro]

i used to work in casinos and occasionally disputes would escalate beyond just a shouting match. when this happened there was a standing policy to bar all exits and wait until the police arrived.

 

i often wondered if this was illegal detention of everyone else who wasn't directly involved, or did the casino have a clause in theirs T&C's which allowed for this? 

 

cant remember, was a very long time ago, but in the 15 months i worked at one specific casino we had to lock everyone in on 3 separate occasions and no one complained

[Dan Robinson]

30 minutes ago, Rogerborg said:

what happens when a site declares that it's going into lockdown and nobody is leaving until the thief hands over the stolen TRMR.

 

Well the site could be in some big doo doo's.  Even the police have limitations on what they can do in terms of detention, and I doubt that extends to holding 80+ people in an area on the say so of some rando.

 

12 minutes ago, pedro said:

i often wondered if this was illegal detention

 

It's all under section 24A of the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984, and I doubt very much the casino would be covered if anyone expressed a desire to leave.

[pedro]

when a riot kicks off in a crowded casino at 2 am lots of people want to leave, they simply were not allowed to.

 

in order to leave they would have had to resort to direct action/violence on the staff members guarding the exits

[Rogerborg]

Presumably you've got CCTV of the handbagging?  And you're securing the scene immediately.

 

I'm contrasting that with a case of missing-presumed-stolen, some time in the past.

 

I'll re-iterate that I'm in favour of catching thieves. I'm just pressing X to doubt that attempting to lock down an airsoft site, well after the event, and then searching the people still there, is likely to result in recovery.  If it does result in someone shouting "found it", great, but does that happen?

[pedro]

i play at the site where the op lost his grenade although i wasn't there that particular evening

 

according to the marshals that i have asked about this specific situation, and the op can correct me if im wrong, the grenade was deployed in a place where there aren't any dark holes or nooks and crannys for it to disappear into.

 

so seemingly a clear case of stealing rather than misplacing

 

[Dan Robinson]

3 hours ago, pedro said:

in order to leave they would have had to resort to direct action/violence on the staff members guarding the exits

 

One would guess that people would be within their rights to use "reasonable force" to end their false imprisonment, but how far down the rabbit hole do you want to go?

 

No organisation/person has the right to detain anyone without good cause (see section 24A again), and I doubt any of the examples above would constitute a good cause.  Your casino would probably have justified their actions solely because of the police being en-route, but ultimately they got away without trouble from the people because of the nature of crowds (very interesting video on that recent on YouTube - link a the bottom).  Also the security people there would have been licensed and therefore trained in what they can get away with, but they have no more powers than you or I and can only detain someone for a "reasonable" amount of time using minimal force, and specifically relating to a crime.

 

No airsoft site would get away with it unless they caught the thief red handed.