FPs ok - joules too hot?

[colinjallen]

18 minutes ago, SBoardley said:

I see what you are saying. I was talking in terms of joules creep; so the ukapu statement is actually slightly misleading?

Yes, as the law only mentions energy, if the police were so minded they could take your full auto capable airsoft gun that shoots at, for example, 1.14J when chrono'd on a 0.2g BB, load it up with the heaviest BBs that they can find and, if it now shoots at over 1.3J, you are potentially in very deep shit.

The FPS figures that UKAPU give are only valid for 0.20g BBs and, as such, pretty meaningless.

As far as the law is concerned, energy is the only thing that matters.

Edited October 24, 2021 by colinjallen

[SBoardley]

21 minutes ago, colinjallen said:

Yes, as the law only mentions energy, if the police were so minded they could take your full auto capable airsoft gun that shoots at, for example, 1.14J when chrono'd on a 0.2g BB, load it up with the heaviest BBs that they can find and, if it now shoots at over 1.3J, you are potentially in very deep shit.

The FPS figures that UKAPU give are only valid for 0.20g BBs and, as such, pretty meaningless.

As far as the law is concerned, energy is the only thing that matters.

I understand this, as I have air rifles, and know that different grain ammo can impact joules as stated on the rifles. 
but always presume that the benchmark was 0.2g so joule creep was irrelevant. 

[colinjallen]

7 minutes ago, SBoardley said:

I understand this, as I have air rifles, and know that different grain ammo can impact joules as stated on the rifles. 
but always presume that the benchmark was 0.2g so joule creep was irrelevant. 

Sites traditionally use 0.20g as the standard; however, the law does not, it uses energy, so if they can make your full auto capable weapon shoot at over 1.3J you have a big problem.

[SBoardley]

I think it would be really helpful to get some numbers up to maybe highlight the issues of joule creep. Because I feel at least for myself, a little education on the matter is useful. 
maybe get some sort of chart up of examples from different platforms? 
I’d give it a go but I’ve just had a house fire and lost a lot of gear including my chrono. Thank god I’m insured. 

Edited October 24, 2021 by SBoardley
Addition

[colinjallen]

34 minutes ago, SBoardley said:

I think it would be really helpful to get some numbers up to maybe highlight the issues of joule creep. Because I feel at least for myself, a little education on the matter is useful. 
maybe get some sort of chart up of examples from different platforms? 
I’d give it a go but I’ve just had a house fire and lost a lot of gear including my chrono. Thank god I’m insured. 

Oh shit!  That is bad.

I will try to find the data from some tests that we did a few years ago.

[SBoardley]

That would be great. I kinda understand more now, and understand better what @Rogerborgwas saying (apologies). I guess I’m old school, used to carry a bag of 0.20’s and a chrono to spot check punters- 328 +- 10%. Also most sites are still 350fps that we’ve visited. 
I shall definitely look at a chrono and bb weight differently now. Just took it for granted I guess. 

[Rogerborg]

2 hours ago, SBoardley said:

so the ukapu statement is actually slightly misleading

 

It's the exact same problem as that which spawned this thread: an ingrained habit of thinking in terms of 0.2g because that's what used to be common in the dawn of airsoft time.

 

The law says nothing about BB mass.  It actually says "a missile (of any kind)".  The intent is clearly to limit what non-firearm airsoft guns could do in the hands of the malicious, rather than what us law abiding types intend to do with them.  The State could drop 0.86g steel BBs in there for testing.  We'd gasp in horror and say "you'll ruin the hop and barrel", but that's not a concern for Charlie Chav or the State.

 

On the issue of sites chronoing with 0.2g because it's quick and gives you some estimate of what the gun might be doing with the ammo that's actually in it, well, that's true enough. It would be equally quick to use 0.4g though, and it would be more likely to catch hotter guns.  It's not a panacea, but if you pick just one mass of BB to use, I'd advocate heavier rather than lighter.

[SBoardley]

@Rogerborg I completely get you. It’s exactly the same as air rifles be set below the max joule/ ft/lb limit; to allow for variance in pellet mass. 
thanks for the school men. I’m converted… chrono on a heavy bb in joules. Everything else is gravy. 

[Druid799]

18 hours ago, colinjallen said:

I am just frequently amazed at how little many airsofters seem to know about what most would regard as the basics.

Very true it’s quite amusing at times when you see a player who you just assume would know the answer to XYZ but instead haven’t a clue  BUT equally there’s A very fine line between coming across as being surprised by this and coming across as a right arrogant twatwaffle ? 
its all about that first impression .

 

4 hours ago, snuff said:

The issue then becomes which chrono?My ICS will chrono on my Xcortech @310 fps but at a site I visit their Nuprol shows @ 285 fps.

Aahh right , no theres a very simple answer to the discrepancy between the two of them , Xcortech is a trusted brand who make very reliably calibrated chronographs , where as Nuprol only sell shit products made by the lowest bidder they can find . 👍

[colinjallen]

7 minutes ago, Druid799 said:

Very true it’s quite amusing at times when you see a player who you just assume would know the answer to XYZ but instead haven’t a clue  BUT equally there’s A very fine line between coming across as being surprised by this and coming across as a right arrogant twatwaffle ? 
its all about that first impression .

If you say so; we obviously live and work in very different environments.

[snuff]

19 minutes ago, Druid799 said:

 

 

 Nuprol only sell shit products . 👍

Indeed....🤣

[Rogerborg]

1 hour ago, Druid799 said:

Very true it’s quite amusing at times when you see a player who you just assume would know the answer to XYZ but instead haven’t a clue  BUT equally there’s A very fine line between coming across as being surprised by this and coming across as a right arrogant twatwaffle ? 

 

Mea culpa, I have a habit of doing that.

 

When I'm tempted, I try to think "What would colinjallen do?", then I do the opposite.

 

In this case, I do try to remember that sites are primarily responsible for educating players, and if they only talk in terms of fps, then what else are folk mean to think?

[Adolf Hamster]

7 minutes ago, Rogerborg said:

In this case, I do try to remember that sites are primarily responsible for educating players, and if they only talk in terms of fps, then what else are folk mean to think?

 

wait, the sites are supposed to know more than the players!?!?

[colinjallen]

22 minutes ago, Rogerborg said:

 

Mea culpa, I have a habit of doing that.

 

When I'm tempted, I try to think "What would colinjallen do?", then I do the opposite.

 

In this case, I do try to remember that sites are primarily responsible for educating players, and if they only talk in terms of fps, then what else are folk mean to think?

That is nice for you; I am rather amused that I get to live in your head rent free

22 minutes ago, Rogerborg said:

 

Mea culpa, I have a habit of doing that.

 

When I'm tempted, I try to think "What would colinjallen do?", then I do the opposite.

 

In this case, I do try to remember that sites are primarily responsible for educating players, and if they only talk in terms of fps, then what else are folk mean to think?

I would rather hope that players would read, think and learn; we are primarily responsible for educating ourselves.  Foisting the responsibility onto sites is just laziness and a dereliction of personal responsibility.

Having marshalled at a couple of sites and played at loads, I would never rely on most site owners and managers for anything; obviously there are exceptions to that.

3 hours ago, SBoardley said:

That would be great. I kinda understand more now, and understand better what @Rogerborgwas saying (apologies). I guess I’m old school, used to carry a bag of 0.20’s and a chrono to spot check punters- 328 +- 10%. Also most sites are still 350fps that we’ve visited. 
I shall definitely look at a chrono and bb weight differently now. Just took it for granted I guess. 

The plus side of the old 328+/-10% always baffled me; that just means that the limit is actually 361 rather than 328.

Once you get your head around it, Joules are the only way forward.

Edited October 24, 2021 by colinjallen

[AirSniper]

I will add my tuppence worth.

 

Joules remains the same energy input to the BB irrespective of your BB weight, heavier BB's like 0.25g travel slower and hold their energy better than a 0.2g BB.

A BB can not gain more energy than it has had imparted on it, that would break the laws of thermodynamics.

 

What I think is the problem is that your pistol chrono'd high because you have a possible leaky valve that is letting too much gas through which would throw the energy output up.

 

[Druid799]

[SBoardley]

1 hour ago, colinjallen said:

 

I would rather hope that players would read, think and learn; we are primarily responsible for educating ourselves.  Foisting the responsibility onto sites is just laziness and a dereliction of personal responsibility 

Yeah isn’t that what we are doing on this forum?

 

1 hour ago, colinjallen said:

 

Having marshalled at a couple of sites and played at loads, I would never rely on most site owners and managers for anything; obviously there are exceptions to that.

 

Yeah telling site owners and staff how to run their site is a…… sure way of being told not to come back?

 

2 hours ago, colinjallen said:

 

The plus side of the old 328+/-10% always baffled me; that just means that the limit is actually 361 rather than 328.

 

Yeah it’s called a margin for error, effectively keeping the players rif just about within the 1.3 joules 

But yeah. If you’ve got something constructive to say about joule creep, I would probably listen. 

[JS101]

He he… well through all the fun above I have learned stuff - which is great!  Seems that the site is actually testing Joules on bb weight - they always ask you to bring your mag and say what weight you are using.  Just they didn’t actually ever say so at the site previously.  
 

But I can now see that they have changed the website at some point in the last few weeks to confirm that they have a flat joule rate and will test at your weight….!

 

which I suppose is what we are saying is the right thing to do….

[Rogerborg]

19 minutes ago, JS101 said:

But I can now see that they have changed the website at some point in the last few weeks to confirm that they have a flat joule rate and will test at your weight….!

 

which I suppose is what we are saying is the right thing to do….

 

Yes, it is.

 

The thing is, at UK power levels, it's not that big a deal.  Even if you're shooting at 1.3 or even higher, you're still not anywhere near the level of what we should be planning for, which is a negligent point blank shot of a 2.3J 0.5g sniper BB into someone's earball.

 

We can now delight @Druid799 by segueing into a rant about how EN 166F glasses shouldn't be allowed on sites.  

[colinjallen]

7 minutes ago, SBoardley said:

Yeah isn’t that what we are doing on this forum?

 

Yeah telling site owners and staff how to run their site is a…… sure way of being told not to come back?

 

Yeah it’s called a margin for error, effectively keeping the players rif just about within the 1.3 joules 

But yeah. If you’ve got something constructive to say about joule creep, I would probably listen. 

It is indeed what we are doing here (most of the time); my point is that it is not the job of site owners and managers.

As for the +/- 10%, a true margin of error would be to just set the limit at a figure rather than a range as most sites now do. Actually, thinking about it again, the -10% is even more pointless; what does it even mean?  Would it mean not allowing guns that shoot below 295?

Joule creep is another subject entirely; if I can find the results of the tests that we did, I will post them and the conclusions in a new thread.  However, it was a long time ago and they may not have made it onto the current laptop.

14 minutes ago, Rogerborg said:

 

Yes, it is.

 

The thing is, at UK power levels, it's not that big a deal.  Even if you're shooting at 1.3 or even higher, you're still not anywhere near the level of what we should be planning for, which is a negligent point blank shot of a 2.3J 0.5g sniper BB into someone's earball.

 

We can now delight @Druid799 by segueing into a rant about how EN 166F glasses shouldn't be allowed on sites.  

Well, there is a point to that argument. 

[Oneshotscott]

Due to airsoft site insurance policies you cannot max out those figures.

 

I am a little annoyed as My springer set to 500fps on .20 which is great for some sites but other sites have the joule rule and some other sites enforce a different joule rating (this applies to both full auto & semi using the weight bb you plan to use).....Man I wish sites would all sing from the same hymn sheet for once and for all.

 

I would change the joules of all your RIF's to meet the requirement by the site which you intend to attend which has the lowest joule rules per RIF.  

 

Unless that is of course that you enjoy tinkering and don't mind stripping a rif to change bits to increase/decrease joules/fps to suit each field?

[Rogerborg]

2 hours ago, Oneshotscott said:

I am a little annoyed as My springer set to 500fps on .20

 

What does it shoot on the ammo that you actually use?

 

I ask because there's a (small but non zero) chance that if it's shooting at 2.32J on 0.2g then it may be capable of over 2.5J with heavier ammo, i.e. not actually an airsoft gun.

[Oneshotscott]

All I'm going to say is that its nowhere near 2.5j but sadly its over 2.32j.  I'm being lazy (plus I currently don't have the time to go and Chrono it again at this moment) but from memory I think it was 2.38j on 0.43g bb's.  So when I get a chance il remove a spring spacer to get it as close to 2.25j just to be safe. That is of course unless I sell it first in the mean time.

 

Thankfully my AEG is 0.98j with 0.28g bb's so it's pretty legal but still it can "HiT a ThReE iNcH gRoUp At 100 'airsoft' MeTeRs ObViOuSlY"

Edited October 28, 2021 by Oneshotscott