Can I Play With Someone Else's UKARA Membership

[Reginald]

So, I am 15 going 16. That obviously makes me under the age to buy rifle. For my dad to purchase a black rifle he would need a UKARA membership requiring 3 games to be played over the period of a minimum 2 months. However, would I be able to play those games as him, and then when he gets the UKARA membership, be able to use that to buy black rifles and play at registered sites? If you need a better explanation please ask. 

[Tommikka]

4 minutes ago, Reginald said:

So, I am 15 going 16. That obviously makes me under the age to buy rifle. For my dad to purchase a black rifle he would need a UKARA membership requiring 3 games to be played over the period of a minimum 2 months. However, would I be able to play those games as him, and then when he gets the UKARA membership, be able to use that to buy black rifles and play at registered sites? If you need a better explanation please ask. 

No.  That would be fraud

[Reginald]

OK, so not the buying the rifle part. But can my dad buy a black rifle and let me use it at a site? 

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Reginald said:

OK, so not the buying the rifle part. But can my dad buy a black rifle and let me use it at a site? 

yes. He can gift you the rifle as well, but he can’t sell it to you, nor use your money to buy it

[Reginald]

NVM GUYS. I have found out that I can use a membership at my local airsoft site as a defence at my local retailer. No need to reply. 

[Asomodai]

27 minutes ago, Reginald said:

NVM GUYS. I have found out that I can use a membership at my local airsoft site as a defence at my local retailer. No need to reply. 

 

That is incorrect. The law states that a RIF or IF cannot be purchased by anyone under the age of 18. It does not matter if you have a defense. 

 

If your site says you can despite being under age then they are advising you wrong or you are interpreting what they say wrongly.

The only way you can get a black RIF is for someone who has a defense over the age of 18 gifts one to you. 

[Big Daddy Vladdy]

What’s wrong with two tone? 🤔 then when you’re of age yourself, get yourself a membership and you can buy RIFs

[Reginald]

43 minutes ago, Asomodai said:

 

That is incorrect. The law states that a RIF or IF cannot be purchased by anyone under the age of 18. It does not matter if you have a defense. 

 

If your site says you can despite being under age then they are advising you wrong or you are interpreting what they say wrongly.

The only way you can get a black RIF is for someone who has a defense over the age of 18 gifts one to you. 

No, at my local store. They said you either need a UKARA membership, or "one of the following defences". And one of those was a membership at the only site in my town. They are a very respectable retailer and wouldn't post false information. https://www.patrolbase.co.uk/general-help-and-advice/what-is-an-ukara-or-airsoft-defence  (link to the retailers 'rules') 

35 minutes ago, Big Daddy Vladdy said:

What’s wrong with two tone? 🤔 then when you’re of age yourself, get yourself a membership and you can buy RIFs

They are ugly 😅 it defeats my reason behind it. If I'm trying to 'role play' as you might call it I don't want to be running round with a blue/red rifle. If I can get a black one with relative ease then why not. 

49 minutes ago, Asomodai said:

 

That is incorrect. The law states that a RIF or IF cannot be purchased by anyone under the age of 18. It does not matter if you have a defense. 

 

If your site says you can despite being under age then they are advising you wrong or you are interpreting what they say wrongly.

The only way you can get a black RIF is for someone who has a defense over the age of 18 gifts one to you. 

Also incase you miss understand. I wouldn't be personally buying it, my dad would be. But he would still need a reason for buying an imitation firearm 

[L3wisD]

🚨🚨  https://m.facebook.com/TheUKARApolice/  🚨🚨

 

 

 

Also, you're correct in saying that UKARA is only one of many ways to have a defence. A lot of people miss that or just plain don't understand it.

 

As you've pointed out above, it would still have to be your old man that does the purchasing of said gun, regardless of colour.

[Leonine]

13 minutes ago, L3wisD said:

🚨🚨  https://m.facebook.com/TheUKARApolice/  🚨🚨

 

 

I can’t tell if they are genuine or not😂

[Rogerborg]

It's a grey area as you can't get a UKARA number yourself (under 18), and neither can your dad (not playing).  What's unambiguous is that at under 18 you can't personally buy any imitation, realistic or otherwise, and they can't sell it direct to you.

 

However, as regards selling to your dad, PatrolBase can do as they like, it's them that are committing the offence, not him for buying it.

 

If your site are prepared to say that they know and you've played there at least 3 times over at least 8 weeks, and your dad says that he's buying it to gift straight to you, I'd say that's well within the the spirit of the law.

 

I would double check with the site to be sure that they're prepared to offer membership to someone under 18.  That's generally (but not necessarily) synonymous with them issuing you a UKARA number, and again, that's for 18 and upwards.

 

Good on you for asking anyway, some folk would just buy two-tone and then strip the paint or hit it with a rattle-can.  Whatever you get, and however you get it, just be sensible and discrete with it and it won't be an issue.

[Tackle]

2 hours ago, Reginald said:

No, at my local store. They said you either need a UKARA membership, or "one of the following defences". And one of those was a membership at the only site in my town. They are a very respectable retailer and wouldn't post false information. https://www.patrolbase.co.uk/general-help-and-advice/what-is-an-ukara-or-airsoft-defence  (link to the retailers 'rules') 

They are ugly 😅 it defeats my reason behind it. If I'm trying to 'role play' as you might call it I don't want to be running round with a blue/red rifle. If I can get a black one with relative ease then why not. 

Also incase you miss understand. I wouldn't be personally buying it, my dad would be. But he would still need a reason for buying an imitation firearm 

Reg, don't be a knob, no one likes two tones but I don't believe PB would sell you a rif in the knowledge that your under 18, irrespective of whatever site membership you have.

I suspect that you've probably been sparing with the truth about when your age when you've contacted them, they're too much to lose (as do we all ?) if your purchase became a test case for the ukara police 😏.

As Rogerborg has pointed out, get a two tone legitimately, it can still be a high quality gun, & then what you choose to do to it in the privacy of your own home to make it "more realistic" is your business.

[Jedi_Master]

Get your father to buy a two-tone gun.  

 

Putting camouflaged tape over a two-tone at a skirmish is permissible due to being a temporary modification purely for the game.  After the skirmish the tape is removed.  Sniper tape is a cheap way to cover the gun for a game day and is then easy to remove afterwards.  Allows you to "role play".

 

[Rogerborg]

I'm going to be a bit contrarian here.

 

10 hours ago, Tackle said:

Reg, don't be a knob, no one likes two tones but I don't believe PB would sell you a rif in the knowledge that your under 18

 

They'd be selling to his dad, on the basis that it was going to be gifted straight to someone who will use it to play airsoft, with the same evidence of that as anyone with UKARA could produce.

 

I mean, that's if the stories are straight, which I'm not convinced about, but I don't see a problem with the situation.

 

 

10 hours ago, Tackle said:

I suspect that you've probably been sparing with the truth about when your age when you've contacted them

 

I suspect that too. However, it's not outwith the bounds of possibility.

 

 

10 hours ago, Tackle said:

As Rogerborg has pointed out, get a two tone legitimately, it can still be a high quality gun, & then what you choose to do to it in the privacy of your own home to make it "more realistic" is your business.

 

I'm not actually suggesting that, I'd rather that he rented for 2 months first.

 

Better for us to have him demonstrate an interest and get a RIF than for him to obtain a two-tone up front, never actually bother playing, and be left with an IF and nothing to do with it except get up to mischief.

 

 

 

9 hours ago, Jedi_Master said:

Get your father to buy a two-tone gun.  

 

Putting camouflaged tape over a two-tone at a skirmish is permissible due to being a temporary modification purely for the game.  After the skirmish the tape is removed.  Sniper tape is a cheap way to cover the gun for a game day and is then easy to remove afterwards.  Allows you to "role play".

 

 

I cannot see any reason why, having turned an IF into a RIF, you'd undo it.

 

Nothing in law obliges you to do so, and you're just making a rod for your own back by repeating the actual offence (modification) on each game day.

 

tl;dr version - I think the lad is doing the right thing.  Play three times over 8 weeks, then talk it out with the site, his dad, and PatrolBase, and get a RIF.sold over the table and then gifted to him.

[Tackle]

5 hours ago, Rogerborg said:

I'm going to be a bit contrarian here.

 

 

They'd be selling to his dad, on the basis that it was going to be gifted straight to someone who will use it to play airsoft, with the same evidence of that as anyone with UKARA could produce.

 

I mean, that's if the stories are straight, which I'm not convinced about, but I don't see a problem with the situation.

 

 

 

I suspect that too. However, it's not outwith the bounds of possibility.

 

 

 

I'm not actually suggesting that, I'd rather that he rented for 2 months first.

 

Better for us to have him demonstrate an interest and get a RIF than for him to obtain a two-tone up front, never actually bother playing, and be left with an IF and nothing to do with it except get up to mischief.

 

 

 

 

I cannot see any reason why, having turned an IF into a RIF, you'd undo it.

 

Nothing in law obliges you to do so, and you're just making a rod for your own back by repeating the actual offence (modification) on each game day.

 

tl;dr version - I think the lad is doing the right thing.  Play three times over 8 weeks, then talk it out with the site, his dad, and PatrolBase, and get a RIF.sold over the table and then gifted to him.

Mate, all of what you've said I already know, & I get it, we know the vcra is flawed in so many ways, but it's all we've got, lol the alternative could have been Airsoft kit that looks like NERF, or maybe no toys at all 😭

But the elephant in the room is that this is a VERY public forum, Reg is a kid & not only is he asking for ways round the vcra, he's admitting that he's prepared to break the "law" (?) to get what he wants, these conversations have been played out many times before, ultimately we shouldn't be entertaining them, doesn't help when he's already had one or more (?) threads discussing what kit to get, gas or aeg etc, which implies to us that he's older & legit to buy, when in fact that's not the case.

Personally I get a bit pissed off with it, the fact that it's in the open has the potential to put everything at risk for the rest of us, only a couple of moody incidents to put Airsoft in the front page & then this crap gets scrutinized, & then God knows what ?

Personally I've got too much time & money, like many here, invested in playing & I want to keep doing it.

The info that Reg seeks is out there, replicated numerous times, he could look for it without "bumping" the subject up there for every anti "gun" lobby to see.

Not digging you out Rog, or anyone one else, just we need to be more careful, I wouldn't even care if members like Reg contacted other experienced members or even mods by PM to clarify what they can or cannot do.

 

"This is my rant, there are many like it but this one is mine"

🤪

[Cannonfodder]

6 hours ago, Rogerborg said:

They'd be selling to his dad, on the basis that it was going to be gifted straight to someone who will use it to play airsoft, with the same evidence of that as anyone with UKARA could produce.

No. His father would still need a defence as he's the one buying the RIF. What he does with it afterwards would be nothing to do with the shop

[Cr0-Magnon]

41 minutes ago, Cannonfodder said:

No. His father would still need a defence as he's the one buying the RIF. What he does with it afterwards would be nothing to do with the shop

 

It's a moot point. If a shop is satisfied by the defence and presence of an adult when purchasing, then they can get a RIF. Seems the case here.

 

1 hour ago, Tackle said:

Mate, all of what you've said I already know, & I get it, we know the vcra is flawed in so many ways, but it's all we've got, lol the alternative could have been Airsoft kit that looks like NERF, or maybe no toys at all 😭

But the elephant in the room is that this is a VERY public forum, Reg is a kid & not only is he asking for ways round the vcra, he's admitting that he's prepared to break the "law" (?) to get what he wants, these

🤪

 

I agree with this though and it's the same when someone talks about best way to remove two tone paint etc (yes, yes I mean if they don't have a defence of course).

[Cannonfodder]

7 minutes ago, Cr0-Magnon said:

 

It's a moot point. If a shop is satisfied by the defence and presence of an adult when purchasing, then they can get a RIF. Seems the case here.

But neither the OP or his father have a defence. The OP isn't old enough and his father isn't an airsofter

[Steveocee]

OP you're probably one of many a day that PB get enquiring about buying a RIF and not having the correct crednetials to do so. I'm sure PB will operate within the guidelines fully as they are a very prominent seller and will likely do "the right thing" which in this case will be declining to sell to you.

 

Also interested to know how you father feels about enabling you in this field as most parents wouldn't understand it and write off little johnny asking for a BB gun.

[hitmanNo2]

I find it hard to believe any legitimate shop would sell a non skirmishing person a RIF on the promise that they'll gift it straight to their 15 year old child who does supposedly skirmish.

[Tackle]

37 minutes ago, Cr0-Magnon said:

 

It's a moot point. If a shop is satisfied by the defence and presence of an adult when purchasing, then they can get a RIF. Seems the case here.

 

 

I agree with this though and it's the same when someone talks about best way to remove two tone paint etc (yes, yes I mean if they don't have a defence of course).

Of course we all know it goes on, various loopholes exploited, people manufacturing rifs from ifs etc, & 99.999999% of the time no one gives a shit, but every now & again something happens that highlights it, suicide by cop/chav on a bus etc etc, but there will be that one time when someone with clout takes notice, or even some spindoctor thinks putting the boot in to us will gain votes or deflect attention from a government fuçkup & then we'll all end like speedsofters with nerf guns..........no thank you😟

[Cannonfodder]

^^^^This. Especially when our defence was given on the basis that we'd be self policing. If as a community we're seen to be condoning, or encouraging, people to break the law our defence could easily be removed

[Cr0-Magnon]

1 hour ago, Tackle said:

Of course we all know it goes on, various loopholes exploited, people manufacturing rifs from ifs etc, & 99.999999% of the time no one gives a shit, but every now & again something happens that highlights it, suicide by cop/chav on a bus etc etc, but there will be that one time when someone with clout takes notice, or even some spindoctor thinks putting the boot in to us will gain votes or deflect attention from a government fuçkup & then we'll all end like speedsofters with nerf guns..........no thank you😟

 

I'm with you. Obtaining a UKARA defence through playing three games is literally the easiest way to show we actually in someway give a shit about this hobby. Yet some still get-off, trying to circumnavigate it.

 

.....HOWEVER, I was purely referencing the OP's question.

[Rogerborg]

1 hour ago, hitmanNo2 said:

I find it hard to believe any legitimate shop would sell a non skirmishing person a RIF on the promise that they'll gift it straight to their 15 year old child who does supposedly skirmish.

 

While I strongly suspect that OP isn't telling us the whole story, I can't see much of a problem with the sell-to-gift process, if everyone is open and above board about it.

 

Given that it's always been legal to gift a RIF, buying one to gift to a 16 year old who has gone through the exact same process as anyone else who's got UKARA seems to me to satisfy the intent of the law, which is to make it available only for "the organisation and holding of permitted activities".

 

I understand that we don't want RIFs getting into the hands of rogues, and it was a poor show by OP to ask how to get around the VCRA.  However, if he's now found a way to get one without subterfuge by playing some airsoft first, it's big shrugs from me.

 

Some things I'm bearing in mind:

 

1. There is no age limit on the defence for modification, so it's always been legal for his dad to get a two-tone, then for him to modify it into a RIF for the purposes of organised airsofting.

2. Berating the lad achieves nothing.  If he can get his hands on a two-tone then there is in practice nothing stopping him from modifying it. All we can do is to encourage him towards the most responsible route,which is to play first, then postpone any purchases until later.

3. ... because he might be a fantasist who never does any of this anyway.

 

 

[Tackle]

Lol, I'm deffo thinking number 3

29 minutes ago, Rogerborg said:

 

While I strongly suspect that OP isn't telling us the whole story, I can't see much of a problem with the sell-to-gift process, if everyone is open and above board about it.

 

Given that it's always been legal to gift a RIF, buying one to gift to a 16 year old who has gone through the exact same process as anyone else who's got UKARA seems to me to satisfy the intent of the law, which is to make it available only for "the organisation and holding of permitted activities".

 

I understand that we don't want RIFs getting into the hands of rogues, and it was a poor show by OP to ask how to get around the VCRA.  However, if he's now found a way to get one without subterfuge by playing some airsoft first, it's big shrugs from me.

 

Some things I'm bearing in mind:

 

1. There is no age limit on the defence for modification, so it's always been legal for his dad to get a two-tone, then for him to modify it into a RIF for the purposes of organised airsofting.

2. Berating the lad achieves nothing.  If he can get his hands on a two-tone then there is in practice nothing stopping him from modifying it. All we can do is to encourage him towards the most responsible route,which is to play first, then postpone any purchases until later.

3. ... because he might be a fantasist who never does any of this anyway.