Met Police Don't Seem to Know What a Two Tone Is.

[rj1986]

Gun crime round that way isn't exactly at an all time low, and it's well known that criminals use minors to hide and transport drugs and weapons.

[Tiercel]

Straight to the media playing the racial victim card and wanting some compo, rather than being more concerned that their son is waving a toy gun around in a manner which ended up with getting a visit from the armed police.

 

My parents would have beaten me to within an inch of my life if I was responsible for a visit from the police, let alone something that results in a raid by the armed police.

 

As for police not knowing what a two-tone is, would you want to take that risk as a police officer? "ah its only a toy gun being pointed at me Im sure, its got a bit of colour on it"

 

 

 

 

Admittedly its America rather than the UK, where everyone and their mum has guns, but oh look... a two tone gun with a bright yellow slide. And its a real gun.

[Tackle]

47 minutes ago, rj1986 said:

Gun crime round that way isn't exactly at an all time low, and it's well known that criminals use minors to hide and transport drugs and weapons.

To be fair, I was a six footer when I was eleven, who's to say that little Kai ain't so little, which will add to the fear of those who saw him with the gun, plus yep, some youngsters are involved in all sorts of crap these days, they're not all angels with dirty faces.

Plod did everything right, as the yanks say "no harm, no foul"

[Rogerborg]

3 hours ago, Tiercel said:

My parents would have beaten me to within an inch of my life if I was responsible for a visit from the police

 

It looks like Kai there doesn't have parents, plural, he has an over-indulgent mother.  The outcomes for that aren't great, which is why it's even sadder to see him coming to the attention of the police so young.

 

I hope he gets over this experience and becomes a happy, safe and productive member of society.  Who knows, we might even have the next David Lammy on our hands. 🙄

[Ropeyshep]

On 27/07/2020 at 11:10, Rogerborg said:

 

Absolutely, which is why I keep pointing them at air guns - let them be that community's problem, even if there's an overlap.

 

Hooray for lazy journalism then. 
 

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/jul/28/what-are-the-rules-governing-the-use-of-air-guns-in-the-uk

[Nick G]

Oh great , that's just what we need. Next thing you know guardian readers will be calling for these 'dangerous weapons' to be banned 

[John_W]

15 minutes ago, Nick G said:

Oh great , that's just what we need. Next thing you know guardian readers will be calling for these 'dangerous weapons' to be banned 

 

Considering when she wanted them banned, they were "Easily converted to fire live ammunition" but now they are "harmless toys" they won't get any support from Dianne Abbott...

[FreeFrag.UK]

@Tiercel - It's slightly off topic but I'll admit I've found Donut's break downs of various police incidents to be very insightful.

 

As far as this incident goes, I'd argue it's subject to a variety of failures but @Rogerborg did an exceptional job of outlining the majority of said failures.

 

From my side of things I can't help but look at the entire situation and think it could have been avoided with proper parental responsibility in place. I've encountered many players since I started who share their passion for airsoft with their children, something I'm certain is common amongst many of us here. Many of the parents I've encountered simply don't allow their kids to access or handle the guns outside of game days or, at minimum, without at least some level of parent supervision.

 

I think there are a lot of misunderstandings when it comes to airsoft but when all is said and done it is the responsibility of the owner or parent/guardian to ensure that the correct legislation is adhered to. While airsoft guns maybe viewed as "toys", and are often referred to as such, I can't help but wonder how much this contributes to parents handing them off to their kids viewing them as such.

 

Sadly (as we've long since established) common sense isn't particularly common and it is unfortunate that there are parents who will blindly buy into airsoft without fully comprehending the risks attached to ownership of IFs and even RIFs.

[Rogerborg]

13 hours ago, Nick G said:

Oh great , that's just what we need. Next thing you know guardian readers will be calling for these 'dangerous weapons' to be banned 

 

The sun rose in the East today, so "liberals" will be calling for banning ALL the things, same as any other day.

 

Have we established that it was actually an airsoft gun (gas, springer, whatever) versus a 4.5mm CO2 stylee air pistol?

 

I imagine the airgun community also get a bit puckered whenever one of these incidents happen, and the Grauniad and other rags start "informing" the public on the "facts".

[John_W]

As two tone rules don't apply to air guns and they have their own legislation on purchase (ID, face to face sales etc) I think this is probably an IF and possibly a Springer at that.

Would be very curious to "follow the money" and find out how it came in to the young man's possession in the first place.

I would hope the airgun community would join ranks on this, but remembering back to VCRA the legislation going through Parliament, there are some members happy to throw Airsoft under the bus to protect their hobby.

(Like small bore pistol did to full bore pistol, and rifle shooters did to pistol shooters and bolt action rifle shooters did to semi auto shooters..)

[Rogerborg]

27 minutes ago, John_W said:

As two tone rules don't apply to air guns

 

Er, yes, I'm not sure what I was thinking there.  Still, if the Grauniad want to tell everyone that it's an air-pistol, fine with me.

 

 

27 minutes ago, John_W said:

Would be very curious to "follow the money" and find out how it came in to the young man's possession in the first place.

 

"“I told them almost straight away that there were no weapons in the house, only a toy gun belonging to my son" - so his mum knew that he had it.  But, yes, whether she bought it for him or whether some rogue trader was happy to flog it to him direct is a good question.

 

 

27 minutes ago, John_W said:

I would hope the airgun community would join ranks on this, but remembering back to VCRA the legislation going through Parliament, there are some members happy to throw Airsoft under the bus to protect their hobby.

(Like small bore pistol did to full bore pistol, and rifle shooters did to pistol shooters and bolt action rifle shooters did to semi auto shooters..)

 

Throw them before they throw us!

[John_W]

7 minutes ago, Rogerborg said:

 

"“I told them almost straight away that there were no weapons in the house, only a toy gun belonging to my son" 

I have this nightmare that the police turn up when I am out and my wife says.

"My husband only has a couple of airsoft guns"

Then they do a search...

[Nick G]

1 hour ago, John_W said:

I have this nightmare that the police turn up when I am out and my wife says.

"My husband only has a couple of airsoft guns"

Then they do a search...

Or, 'are these all your husbands automatic guns madam? ' Oh no officer he has loads more in the garage '

[Tommikka]

3 hours ago, John_W said:

As two tone rules don't apply to air guns and they have their own legislation on purchase (ID, face to face sales etc) I think this is probably an IF and possibly a Springer at that.

Would be very curious to "follow the money" and find out how it came in to the young man's possession in the first place.

I would hope the airgun community would join ranks on this, but remembering back to VCRA the legislation going through Parliament, there are some members happy to throw Airsoft under the bus to protect their hobby.

(Like small bore pistol did to full bore pistol, and rifle shooters did to pistol shooters and bolt action rifle shooters did to semi auto shooters..)

Especially interesting to follow the money as:

1)the gun is legal to possess whether an IF or RIF
2)is illegal for him to have purchased, so  ought to have come via someone else to be legal

3)it’s not VCRA colour compliant, (not bright blue, <50% coverage)

any seller who has sold without a defence (since 2007) is liable to a significant fine

4) it’s either imported (and not compliant unless the importer had a defence) or has been sold by a BBGuns retailer without a full understanding of the VCRA 

The police did the right thing, the boy didn’t do anything majorly wrong (He & his mother weren’t being fully responsible, but it wasn’t waved around in public)

Under the VCRA:

Somebody thought it was a gun, so legally it is a RIF unless it meets the IF criteria. It doesn’t meet the criteria.

But no offence was committed at the time of the police visit 

[Shizbazki]

Police did the right thing, full stop.

 

Going to go ona  bit of a rant, and some of you will pick out the "what if's" and "what about's" but do note that each case is taken at its own merit.

 

Police received a call from a member of public (MOP) who stated that they saw a boy holding a pistol.

You must remember, MOPs or Joe public don't know the difference between airsoft, air gun, and a real gun, they just see gun and report it as such.

Furthermore the same MOP probably only witnessed said boy with gun for probably a few seconds and lets be real, if you thing real danger is close, you Foxtrot Oscar (ill let you figure that out)

Also they saw the gun through a window, possibly through net curtains and also, as is often the case, in daylight indoors seem dark, in the dark colours lose their saturation so a dark blue (as we saw in the photos) can look like a slightly different shade of black.

 

For those that don't know, in London a typical "999" as such get sent from a call handler, who dispatches it to an Operator, before the Operator dispatches the call. Now especially in one involving firearms, the local Duty Inspector is made aware of it, also keeping a look out for such calls is a Firearms Command Officer (often another Inspector). They will basically ask 101 questions and triage the call to ensure what they do is right, they will also at times personally call the MOP and ask them about what they saw, how long for and sometime even ask what their knowledge on firearms is (you would not believe the number of calls police receive as shots fired when in reality ts a backfiring car)..

 

As part of this "TRIAGE" they ask what the description is and of course his skin colour would come up. Of course they would do intelligence and checks on the address and anyone who lives there fast time too. Meanwhile firearms officers are making their way to the location too. The description is for officers to ensure that they locate the right address, the right person and the right item. And yes they do screw up sometimes, they are only human.

 

Now someone mentioned the "W" word or warrant.

I'm not going to read it out here but please look up Section 17 PACE 1984, it gives officers power of entry without warrant under certain conditions if they have reasonable suspicion, and on this occasion the suspicion was reasonable. This "Do you have a warrant?" thing is pretty much from the US but yes Warrants here do exist. I mean you should see Tipstaff Warrants, if the officer even thinks you're lying, you get nicked.

 

Believe it or not, those that live in the UK, the laws here can be somewhat quite draconian in many ways, i mean look up some of the Royal Parks act, sheesh its an offence to even breath loudly in them.

 

The 12 year old is not the same as you see in the photos, those are the pictures chosen by family to make him appear as angelic as possible, whenever you hear aspiring artist, architect, footballer or rapper killed (often sadly in some kind of gang feud) then look through that, bet if you were to see their previous it might make you think twice. 

 

Also the area in general is pretty high on crime and gang warfare, it is not uncommon for senior gang members to give guns, drugs or weapons to younger gang kids they've recruited to carry their stuff as they think that they will be more unlikely to be stopped.

 

Yes officers forced entry into the home, officers are trained to deem anything and anyone as either Unknown Risk and High Risk, there isn't a Low Risk. They don't know what they are going into, a family home (in this case it was) or a gang den. Everyone was detained and led away from the address with the 12 year old boy cuffed (probably at the rear) and taken to a police vehicle, property was searched and a two tone airsoft gun was found, HE WAS DE-ARRESTED once it was established that it was an airsoft gun.

 

Due to the current political climate the family now thinks "ah we are entitled to some compo here", the body worn video has been viewed by a senior officer who is the lead in policing firearms  and stated that he viewed the body worn footage and saw that the officer behaved properly, professionally and conducted everything as per their training, cant wrong them for doing what the book says.

 

Also forget David Lammy, dont even get me started on that waste of space that is Diane Abbott, i think she is the second most hated MP after Theresa May by police officers

[Guest DrAlexanderTobacco]

58 minutes ago, Shizbazki said:

The 12 year old is not the same as you see in the photos, those are the pictures chosen by family to make him appear as angelic as possible, whenever you hear aspiring artist, architect, footballer or rapper killed (often sadly in some kind of gang feud) then look through that, bet if you were to see their previous it might make you think twice.

I pretty much agree with most of your post, save for this bit - really unfair. You're right, people will select photos to display the best possible angle for their side of the story (Or, indeed, just to make their child look nice as parents are wont to do). But to imply that this kid is absolutely a wrongun is indefensible. So far all I've seen of the objective facts - Child, (R)IF, accidental display via private property, there's nothing to imply the kid's involved in anything other than a stupid mistake thus far.

[Shizbazki]

49 minutes ago, DrAlexanderTobacco said:

I pretty much agree with most of your post, save for this bit - really unfair. You're right, people will select photos to display the best possible angle for their side of the story (Or, indeed, just to make their child look nice as parents are wont to do). But to imply that this kid is absolutely a wrongun is indefensible. So far all I've seen of the objective facts - Child, (R)IF, accidental display via private property, there's nothing to imply the kid's involved in anything other than a stupid mistake thus far.

 

I didn't mean this kid specifically, i was generalising across the board, sorry if it came across wrong, like i said at the top, bit of a rant, maybe i should have separated those two sentences to imply that they were not connected.

 

In "general", if you hear about a young lad who has died as a result of stabbing, shooting etc and they use those particular aspiring roles (often the chosen ones are artist, architect, footballer or rapper). More often than not, look into their backgrounds.

 

Case in point was Jaiden Moodie, painted as a young angelic 14 year old lad who was brutally murdered in London. WHO was also a drug dealer and drug runner for a notorious London Gang.

 

Yes, young Kai made a stupid mistake don't get me wrong, but i still think that the way police handled it was very good and would fully expect the same to happen to me had i been waving a gun around my front window.

 

[Tackle]

I remember the jaiden moodie case, everyone coming out of the woodwork for their 5 minutes of fame exclaiming "what a good boy he was", all I could think was "why was a 14yo illegally riding a ped, what else was he up to ?", & obviously a lot more came to light.

[Sneaky]

This is what bothered me about the whole thing. I’m black and when I was this on the news I was instantly cheesed off as to how this was portrayed. I felt the news focussed on the fact that they were black and not really focussed on the gun. I totally agree with the police response, as how are they supposed to know if it is a fire arm or a RIF.  The mother said that they should knock on the door to ask if it was real or not - come on, what madness is this! If I did something like that, brandishing one of my RIF’s in the front window, I would expect some kind of police response at that level.  My neighbours fully know what I do.

 

On this occasion I believe the police did was correct.

 

Rant  over, stay safe everyone. 

[Albiscuit]

8 hours ago, Shizbazki said:

In "general", if you hear about a young lad who has died as a result of stabbing, shooting etc and they use those particular aspiring roles (often the chosen ones are artist, architect, footballer or rapper). More often than not, look into their backgrounds.

 

Case in point was Jaiden Moodie, painted as a young angelic 14 year old lad who was brutally murdered in London. WHO was also a drug dealer and drug runner for a notorious London Gang.

 

Yes, young Kai made a stupid mistake don't get me wrong, but i still think that the way police handled it was very good and would fully expect the same to happen to me had i been waving a gun around my front window.

 

 

 

TOTALLY agree.

 

I wont go into details as identities can be found out but in my role as a youth worker I know if quite a few young people who have been killed. One recently was shot a number of times. Now I see the tributes on social media and the shrines which pop up and parents claiming 'he was a lovely boy' 'it was wrong place wrong time' or 'mistaken identity' and your right they always choose a smiling picture of them with the family, usually in their Sunday best (Kais pic looked like him and mum just came back from church tbf) and I can see right through it most of the time.

 

The family of the latest lad to be killed claims it was a case 'mistaken identity' but they leave out of the media report he was a knife carrying drug dealer who robbed people. Now dont get me wrong, its sad any life is taken and he didnt deserve to be killed but he was no way an innocent civilian in the local gang war. It was a targeted hit. In my professional role I have to bite my tongue so so much when I see and hear these things. 

 

I have seen it with at least 4 kids who have been killed around my way. Its terribly sad but these are the kids who are clearly in the criminal life and get in over their head.

 

Like you say though its not EVERYONE, I know of a kid who WAS killed locally in a robbery not a target or a result of drugs or a silly beef, but in general the families will choose their pictures carefully and not say or know about the darker side to their kids life.

Bloody sad as I write this thinking about all the dead kids and other victims I know  

[Rogerborg]

12 hours ago, Shizbazki said:

Now someone mentioned the "W" word or warrant.

 

Guilty as charged.  I didn't expect they had got one given the swiftness of the response and the lack of night courts (I'd love to see drunks dragged before Magistrates at 2am while they're still kicking off), it's just an interest in what was on the 5x5x5.

 

 

12 hours ago, Shizbazki said:

I'm not going to read it out here but please look up Section 17 PACE 1984

 

Safely archived up here.

 

 

12 hours ago, Shizbazki said:

The 12 year old is not the same as you see in the photos

 

May not be.  But yes, in general the images used are "most angelic", not "most recent".

 

 

12 hours ago, Shizbazki said:

Yes officers forced entry into the home

 

Depends on the definition of force. it seems that they knocked and the lad opened the door.

 

 

12 hours ago, Shizbazki said:

Everyone was detained and led away from the address with the 12 year old boy cuffed (probably at the rear)

 

That's the only part that I have an issue with, after they'd searched him - it seems that he was left cuffed for the duration of searching the house.  I know why they did it, and why they want to - officer safety.  It's a concerning trend though: see, for example, the Bianca Williams / Ricardo dos Santos case where they were also cuffed despite not being arrested, or charged with the multiple alleged offences that were claimed as the cause for the stop-and-search.

 

 

12 hours ago, Shizbazki said:

the body worn video has been viewed by a senior officer who is the lead in policing firearms  and stated that he viewed the body worn footage and saw that the officer behaved properly, professionally and conducted everything as per their training

 

Eh, the sun rose in the East. That's what they said in the Bianca Williams case, before reversing course and issuing an apology for... uh... conducting everything as per their training.

 

I should stress that I do mostly agree with you and think that they had to act.  I'm just not a big fan of routine cuffing though, as it fundamentally changes the nature of the relationship between the police and the public - I'm not sure Bobby Peel would be mad keen on it.

 

 

 

3 hours ago, Tackle said:

I remember the jaiden moodie case, everyone coming out of the woodwork for their 5 minutes of fame exclaiming "what a good boy he was", all I could think was "why was a 14yo illegally riding a ped, what else was he up to ?", & obviously a lot more came to light.

 

My initial response to that was "That's dreadful, I hope that poor scooter wasn't too badly damaged and that it got back to its real owner", and nothing that emerged afterwards gave me any cause to regret that knee jerk.

 

[GeorgePlaysAirsoft]

1 hour ago, Rogerborg said:

My initial response to that was "That's dreadful, I hope that poor scooter wasn't too badly damaged and that it got back to its real owner", and nothing that emerged afterwards gave me any cause to regret that knee jerk.

 

 

[Rogerborg]

4 minutes ago, GeorgePlaysAirsoft said:

 

 

#BikeLivesMatter, chap.

[Albiscuit]

Was a very sad case but my reaction was similar. My very first thought was if he was 14 why was he on a moped? it wasn't his, he couldn't have had it legally so why was he on one.

 

I know loads of kids 'with' mopeds and I always say the same. I work with mostly low income families and when I see their 15/16 year old son on one its always my first question, as usually the answer is drug money. Either bought illegally with drug money, or its nicked/passed around so they can do ride outs or deliver drugs. Therefore they are generally in that 'life' and more often than not involved in suffering in some way. Not that they deserve death, but claiming innocence when you move in those circles is just silly. If you sell drugs, rob people, hang with people who stab others or are involved in a gang then that's the expectation and I have little empathy in these circumstances. Which is shocking considering my job 🤔

 

Same when they have fatal crashes in cop chases, if they were that innocent why didnt they stop? I am not saying cops should run them off the road (thats another debate) but if they would have stopped then they would be alive.

[Rogerborg]

48 minutes ago, Albiscuit said:

My very first thought was if he was 14 why was he on a moped?

 

He was on a scooter, almost certainly stolen, possibly a 300cc+ plated as a 125, or just flat out fake or foreign plated.  The words "his" and "moped" set me off, we know exactly how he got it, and what he was using it for.

 

In this case, well, Kai's mum thinks that's a "toy" gun.  That's what I call mine too, but with the full knowledge that they're not treated as firearms (imitation or otherwise) only by a quirk of legislation.

 

All that said, I'm drawing a clear distinction between a drug dealer riding a stolen scooter without license or insurance, and a kid with a legally held (and hopefully legally obtained) airsoft (R)IF.   I very much hope that young Kai there isn't heading down the same route as Jaden and so many others, and until he does, I'll happily side with his right to own that, uh, toy.

 

 

Quote

I am not saying cops should run them off the road (thats another debate)

 

I'm a biker and I say they should run them off the road, then bill their families for the damage to the cop car, then prosecute them for aiding an offender.  "Dunno how he got it, just kids larking about, innit" shouldn't be an excuse.