Laser safety

[KirbyHCI]

So I've been wondering about the safety of some cheap lasers out there, especially from overseas. I run a low power red laser that I'm sure won't blind anyone unless I jam the thing right in their eye for a good few seconds or more, but my partner's is this vicious green thing that leaves a visible line in lightly dusty air in a lit room. Most that fit its description online claim to be UK legal and eyesafe but one let slip a number nearly 4 times that limit later in the description, as if it hadn't been edited.

Now it seems like a common shell (personally I think the guy ripped us off but if he wasn't it sure must be better quality than the £10 ones in the same case out there. There's me being optimistic.) and I'm sure you could stick various power diodes in the same shell, but how can anyone know what's low enough power and if it has a proper IR filter?

I know some sites just outright disallow lasers, be it used or in some cases mounted at all. Would be a bit inconvenient, not to mention cost prohibitive, for sites or skirmishers to buy laser power meters. So I'm left eyeing said green laser ray of doom with caution (It is on a pressure switch, but both humans reacting, ie. close eyes/let go of button, is already inherently delayed and a bad OP green laser with no IR filter can cause pretty quick eye damage).

Am I overthinking it, is it a concern most folks just ignore? Or is it an issue others consider?

[EDcase]

All the sites I go to do not allow green lasers

[Tackle]

It's a frequency thing, the green is much higher, & infinitely more harmful, take one on site & you'll prob be banned for life ☹️  .

[Rogerborg]

6 hours ago, KirbyHCI said:

I run a low power red laser that I'm sure won't blind anyone

 

Test that theory on yourself first, please.

 

If you won't do that, leave it at home.

[Steveocee]

Lasers have never really been regarded as "safe" to point at peoples faces/eyes. Green ones are more harmful than red as mentioned, I believe blue are even worse again.

 

"Most" sellers if not buying from a specialist shop are likely importing the same cheap tat from abroad that does not comply and they are simply wording it to try and give them a unique edge, let's face it, when you only make a quid or 2 on an item, you aren't going to send that item for testing knowing it will fail.

 

Easy answer: Aim better. Why do you even need a red dot where your BB's are going to land if you're ADS'd and are accurate anyway?

[kasaran]

With the bb dropping.... why have a red dot?  You would need to be point blank to get it 100% accurate.  As then its just showing where it might have hit were it not for physics.  

 

As said before practice more at aiming down sights.  I remember reporting a lazer on one site now closed.  They said they are allowed, just dont aim at faces.  But when you peak a corner, the only thing they can and do aim at is your face.  Was not a fan

[Adolf Hamster]

never really seen the point in lasers, just makes it easier for the other guy (ie me) to see where you are.....

 

a red dot does the same job but without letting all and sundry know where you are.

 

if they're far enough then a reference point is handy, if they're close enough then you don't really need to aim.

[clumpyedge]

15 minutes ago, kasaran said:

 You would need to be point blank to get it 100% accurate.

 

Not completely true, but I get what you are saying

 

2 minutes ago, Adolf Hamster said:

never really seen the point in lasers, just makes it easier for the other guy (ie me) to see where you are.....

 

a red dot does the same job but without letting all and sundry know where you are.

 

if they're far enough then a reference point is handy, if they're close enough then you don't really need to aim.

 

IR works well under NODS specially for signalling or pointing out targets (think 13 hours-esk) especially when working with a small team and deciding who is shooting at who.

[Adolf Hamster]

5 minutes ago, clumpyedge said:

IR works well under NODS specially for signalling or pointing out targets (think 13 hours-esk) especially when working with a small team and deciding who is shooting at who.

 

fair point, although even under those conditions you're making yourself a lighthouse for anyone else with NODS.

[clumpyedge]

18 minutes ago, Adolf Hamster said:

 

fair point, although even under those conditions you're making yourself a lighthouse for anyone else with NODS.

 

This is true but not all games have the same rules of both forces being allowed to use them in the same way, for instance legion allow opfor to use them as spotting scopes (handheld) where as bluefor can use them in the conventional headmounted/rifle mounted function...

 

Personally (as I mainly play opfor) I like the challenge of playing against people who have a "tactical advantage" as it makes you think more about how you are playing and what you can do over come it.

 

Back to the accuracy thing, personally I've always had my lasers (generally use a G&P Dbal) set to the length of the range I can use 40-50m (very few environmental factors), while the grouping is not shot for shot in the same place, size of the target lets me know that bar variance in wind or anything else my shots should be on target at that distance at a fairly high percentage, not that I'd use it for an argument that my laser was on them so I must have hit them but chances are I probably did. If you spend enough time actually playing about with things its amazing how accurate you can set things up.

 

Would never aim for someones face however. If that's all that's peaking I'd just rely on optics.

[Musica]

I've put of going to a site that doesn't ban lasers because I don't want someone who thinks their laser is "safe" to cause me harm. 

 

They are not safe ever and it's fine for military use because the guys eye sight is probably least of his concern when hes getting filled full of 556 rounds. 

[Adolf Hamster]

4 minutes ago, clumpyedge said:

 

This is true but not all games have the same rules of both forces being allowed to use them in the same way, for instance legion allow opfor to use them as spotting scopes (handheld) where as bluefor can use them in the conventional headmounted/rifle mounted function...

 

Personally (as I mainly play opfor) I like the challenge of playing against people who have a "tactical advantage" as it makes you think more about how you are playing and what you can do over come it.

 

Back to the accuracy thing, personally I've always had my lasers (generally use a G&P Dbal) set to the length of the range I can use 40-50m (very few environmental factors), while the grouping is not shot for shot in the same place, size of the target lets me know that bar variance in wind or anything else my shots should be on target at that distance at a fairly high percentage, not that I'd use it for an argument that my laser was on them so I must have hit them but chances are I probably did. If you spend enough time actually playing about with things its amazing how accurate you can set things up.

 

Would never aim for someones face however. If that's all that's peaking I'd just rely on optics.

 

suppose that's a fair point if you're talking asymetrical forces.

 

i do agree on the accuracy, certainly there's a region a decent setup can get that spread is very much "minute of bad guy", it's the reason i run magnified optics on my m4, not because i need it to make a hit (because an open dot is more than good for airsoft ranges) but for tracking bb's in and making sure they're not dropping short/hopping up beyond the point i can ordinarily see them. unfortunately unlike real shooting we don't have the luxury of dirt splashes to base our kentucky windage off.

[Guest DrAlexanderTobacco]

Anything up to class 2 - triggering the blink reflex - is fine in my eyes (heh). You're simply not going to catch a beam long enough to cause permanent damage, because of said blink reflex as well as the nature of the game, how a beam is never likely going to be focused in on your eye, targeted, etc.

 

[Guest]

@DrAlexanderTobacco I don’t agree. You’ll ALWAYS get some idiots who deliberately target eyes because ‘it’s funny’. How else do you explain the morons who target commercial and police pilots?

[clumpyedge]

Just now, rocketdogbert said:

@DrAlexanderTobacco I don’t agree. You’ll ALWAYS get some idiots who deliberately target eyes because ‘it’s funny’. How else do you explain the morons who target commercial and police pilots?

 

Reverse Darwinism

[Guest DrAlexanderTobacco]

3 minutes ago, rocketdogbert said:

@DrAlexanderTobacco I don’t agree. You’ll ALWAYS get some idiots who deliberately target eyes because ‘it’s funny’. How else do you explain the morons who target commercial and police pilots?

I think that number of people you're imagining is incredibly small, in all honesty.

 

Eye damage through laser exposure has to be concentrated - either in power, or exposure length. Everyone's glanced at the sun accidentally - you get a bright spot in your vision but no further damage because of the blink reflex. If you stare at the sun for seconds, you're getting permanent damage and the same is true for lasers up to class 2 (1mW)

 

If you get targeted maliciously by someone you're simply not going to be exposed to that laser for long enough to cause concentrated damage - you'll blink first, and neither you nor the dickhead targeting you is going to be holding the beam in such a way that you suffer damage. What you'll see from your perspective is multiple flashes as the laser sweeps over your eye. Which are ultimately safe.

 

Where my "lasers are good actually" stance falls down is on one specific point:

 

- Dickheads using higher power lasers

 

The chance is slim, and power rating can be tested. That's up to the organisers ultimately and if they chose to ban lasers completely because of the hassle involved I certainly wouldn't complain, I get the struggle of trying to run a site and keeping people safe trumps everything else.

 

What does worry me though is IR lasers - some of the clones can emit a stupidly high power, G&P DBALs for example have a rating of 8MW. That coupled with the lack of a blink reflex, and the manner IR lasers can be used (e.g. highlighting a static, unaware target), in my view significantly increases the chance of a injury during a night game.

 

Of course, the standard of play at a night game is going to be significantly higher; and anyone dropping cash on IR lasers is probably going to understand the risks involved. Yet, it worries me all the same because you - as the target - wouldn't know about the danger until you already have eye damage.

 

[clumpyedge]

Just now, DrAlexanderTobacco said:

I think that number of people you're imagining is incredibly small, in all honesty.

 

 

You say that but its one of the many reasons Stanta stopped being available supposedly.

[Guest DrAlexanderTobacco]

3 minutes ago, clumpyedge said:

 

You say that but its one of the many reasons Stanta stopped being available supposedly.

Which part, people shining at other airsofters or @ aircraft?

 

To add clarification I wasn't necessarily saying you don't get people using them maliciously, you do of course. I was just trying to say that - even if that was the case,  I can't see a realistic case where you're catching eye damage.

 

Just as I said later in the post if organisers want to ban lasers, either for the day or a longer basis, because some of their players are dickheads - absolutely zero problems with that.

[clumpyedge]

1 minute ago, DrAlexanderTobacco said:

Which part, people shining at other airsofters or @ aircraft?

 

To add clarification I wasn't necessarily saying you don't get people using them maliciously, you do of course. I was just trying to say that - even if that was the case,  I can't see a realistic case where you're catching eye damage.

 

Just as I said later in the post if organisers want to ban lasers, either for the day or a longer basis, because some of their players are dickheads - absolutely zero problems with that.

 

Well in fairness from the never ending rumor mill it was just into the sky but considering how much military aircraft flies in and out of Lakenheath and Mildenhall I wouldn't be surprised if it was the case.

 

I don't have an issue with it either its just a shame that in many cases of issues its the few that spoil it for the majority.

[Guest DrAlexanderTobacco]

Just now, clumpyedge said:

 

Well in fairness from the never ending rumor mill it was just into the sky but considering how much military aircraft flies in and out of Lakenheath and Mildenhall I wouldn't be surprised if it was the case.

 

I don't have an issue with it either its just a shame that in many cases of issues its the few that spoil it for the majority.

Definitely agreed there. FWIW Stanta is open for business again, Combat Airsoft are putting on a few events this year - first in April!

[clumpyedge]

1 minute ago, DrAlexanderTobacco said:

Definitely agreed there. FWIW Stanta is open for business again, Combat Airsoft are putting on a few events this year - first in April!

 

Yeah after their first game (supposedly a milsim) and the Christmas game I can safely say even with Stanta being such a cool site I wont be handing my money to them just to get onto the site.

[Guest DrAlexanderTobacco]

Thanks for the heads up - it would be my first game with them. Anyway I'll stop the derail there.

[Rogerborg]

3 hours ago, DrAlexanderTobacco said:

Anything up to class 2 - triggering the blink reflex

 

"only 17% of subjects responded with a blink reflex under typical Class 2 [1 milliwatt] laser conditions"

 

Conclusion: “Aversion responses, including the blink reflex, do not ensure adequate protection when working with a Class 2 laser.”

 

Note that the 17% was among the group who were expecting the light.  Among a group who had not been warned only 14% (fewer than 1 in 7) blinked.

 

The further conclusion was that anyone likely to be subject to laser light should be warned to expect it and to actively look away.

 

You'll be aware how much attention is paid during safety briefings, so an alternative to #VictimBlaming every player would be to tell the couple of people who want to use frikkin' lasers to kindly leave them at home.

[Guest DrAlexanderTobacco]

2 hours ago, Rogerborg said:

 

"only 17% of subjects responded with a blink reflex under typical Class 2 [1 milliwatt] laser conditions"

 

 

Thanks for the study, interesting stuff and I wasn't aware that the blink reflex occurs at such a low rate. I would still be happy to play with lasers in a game; I can't see a laser realistically being focused on your retina for long enough to cause damage. It would be interesting to see if there are any documented instances of people suffering damage in games. I think I read a story on UCAP's page a while back but could be wrong.

[GREG_BURTON]

The power rating of the diode is a much more important factor than the colour. Green Lasers can be more damaging to the eye as the retina absorbs green light much more easily than red which is also the reason NV is green as you can see more shades of green than any other colour, which is useful if the picture you are looking at is monochromatic. The problem with cheap Chinese green lasers is that they will be using something called frequency doubling so it will be a low power green diode being backed by a stronger IR diode being pumped to match the wavelength. Normally this wouldn't be a problem as you would have an IR filter to block any excess IR light of a high power getting through but ya know, China.