Supporters Prisce Posted February 2, 2019 Supporters Share Posted February 2, 2019 Thought this might be handy. Both these pictures are taken from the police student handbook. It appears that that some of what they are taught is different to what we have interpreted. (Mainly gifting of a RIF, recipient must be at least 17....) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vulpiness Posted February 2, 2019 Share Posted February 2, 2019 we should get UKARA to write to them and fact check that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clumpyedge Posted February 5, 2019 Share Posted February 5, 2019 That last couple of lines had me in stitches 🤣 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporters Prisce Posted February 5, 2019 Author Supporters Share Posted February 5, 2019 I know. I thought it was hilarious. If that’s what cops are taught, no wonder things are in the state they are right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resistor170 Posted February 5, 2019 Share Posted February 5, 2019 This is regarding the 'bb guns' not airsoft section. But maybe anyone can clear this up for me. Does this mean my Dan wesson 715 pellet gun is classed as prohibited? That's how it reads to me but surely it's not. Maybe 18.8 clears it up... Edit: if a police officer read his handbook and then examined the gun, would he not class it as prohibited? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporters Prisce Posted February 5, 2019 Author Supporters Share Posted February 5, 2019 1 hour ago, Resistor170 said: This is regarding the 'bb guns' not airsoft section. But maybe anyone can clear this up for me. Does this mean my Dan wesson 715 pellet gun is classed as prohibited? That's how it reads to me but surely it's not. Maybe 18.8 clears it up... Edit: if a police officer read his handbook and then examined the gun, would he not class it as prohibited? This is why I posted it. If you know what the police are taught, you can perhaps prepare yourself if you ever come under suspicion. After reading that, and reading Some the of VCRA I’m not entirely sure what’s best to believe or trust. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Admin proffrink Posted February 5, 2019 Root Admin Share Posted February 5, 2019 1 hour ago, Resistor170 said: This is regarding the 'bb guns' not airsoft section. But maybe anyone can clear this up for me. Does this mean my Dan wesson 715 pellet gun is classed as prohibited? That's how it reads to me but surely it's not. Maybe 18.8 clears it up... Edit: if a police officer read his handbook and then examined the gun, would he not class it as prohibited? CO2 cartridge is in the grip, so I'd imagine not. This seems to reference gas being held in a casing of some sort. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resistor170 Posted February 5, 2019 Share Posted February 5, 2019 14 minutes ago, proffrink said: CO2 cartridge is in the grip, so I'd imagine not. This seems to reference gas being held in a casing of some sort. It can also be read as projectiles being forced out of the casing... ...but after reading it again with what you have said, I think you are exactly right Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Tackle Posted February 5, 2019 Moderators Share Posted February 5, 2019 maybe its so ambiguous for a reason ?, giving the police more flexibility in their interpretation when on the job, essentially covering their arses & allowing them to be more proactive in situations involving rifs etc. or am I just a cynical old cnut 😉 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resistor170 Posted February 5, 2019 Share Posted February 5, 2019 1 minute ago, Tackle said: maybe its so ambiguous for a reason ?, giving the police more flexibility in their interpretation when on the job, essentially covering their arses & allowing them to be more proactive in situations involving rifs etc. or am I just a cynical old cnut 😉 I did also wonder this, it would be a smart move. I think you are probably right, otherwise you'd think they would make this crystal clear. But I am also cynical Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clumpyedge Posted February 5, 2019 Share Posted February 5, 2019 55 minutes ago, proffrink said: CO2 cartridge is in the grip, so I'd imagine not. This seems to reference gas being held in a casing of some sort. Wonder how APS shotguns fall into that where the casings themselves are gassed, like you say though its worded as such that they can almost use their digression or as some would put it "do I want to be a dick today" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resistor170 Posted February 5, 2019 Share Posted February 5, 2019 5 minutes ago, clumpyedge said: Wonder how APS shotguns fall into that where the casings themselves are gassed, like you say though its worded as such that they can almost use their digression or as some would put it "do I want to be a dick today" If these are airsoft only then seems like they are fine because the part in question was under bb guns. (I know this is an airsoft forum sorry). If they are also made for 4.5mm steel bb then no matter which way you look at the wording, surely either these or the cartridge revolvers would have to be probhibited... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clumpyedge Posted February 5, 2019 Share Posted February 5, 2019 1 minute ago, Resistor170 said: If these are airsoft only then seems like they are fine because the part in question was under bb guns. (I know this is an airsoft forum sorry). If they are also made for 4.5mm steel bb then no matter which way you look at the wording, surely either these or the cartridge revolvers would have to be probhibited... Like you say its all in the wording, after all if any of the above guns are altered to come above certain thresholds etc they then all come under one or more firearms offenses Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Immortal Posted February 5, 2019 Share Posted February 5, 2019 2 hours ago, Resistor170 said: This is regarding the 'bb guns' not airsoft section. But maybe anyone can clear this up for me. Does this mean my Dan wesson 715 pellet gun is classed as prohibited? That's how it reads to me but surely it's not. Maybe 18.8 clears it up... Edit: if a police officer read his handbook and then examined the gun, would he not class it as prohibited? This reference is for Gas powered shotgun shells. Years ago you could buy shotgun gas shell powered air rifles. They are totally illegal now. However we seem to be able to buy the equivalent design now but the ammo is not lead and they are classed as Airsoft rifs and not airguns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resistor170 Posted February 5, 2019 Share Posted February 5, 2019 7 minutes ago, Immortal said: This reference is for Gas powered shotgun shells. Years ago you could buy shotgun gas shell powered air rifles. They are totally illegal now. However we seem to be able to buy the equivalent design now but the ammo is not lead and they are classed as Airsoft rifs and not airguns. I think you have cleared that up. Thanks. I own some air pistols and have various different types of targets for garden fun. In my view having a shotgun system for garden target shooting would ruin the fun/challenge. For airsoft skirmishing they are much more appropriate so hopefully they won't end up being banned too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommikka Posted February 5, 2019 Share Posted February 5, 2019 I haven’t fully digested the content, but there were airguns such as brocock pistols which fired a ball from a ‘bullet’ These were precharged with air in the ‘bullet’ and became illegal You could get them covered in a firearms certificate, but going through that you may as well get a firearm, so brococks were surrendered in a firearms amnesty If powered by 12gram co2 etc then the pistol is legal (as long as it complies with power levels etc as well) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Immortal Posted February 5, 2019 Share Posted February 5, 2019 40 minutes ago, Tommikka said: I haven’t fully digested the content, but there were airguns such as brocock pistols which fired a ball from a ‘bullet’ These were precharged with air in the ‘bullet’ and became illegal Yes indeed, essentially the same self contained gas shell system capable and designed to a fire lead round or equivalent. You can buy the MadMax shotgun in this country however they remove one of the OEM supplied ammos available outside the EU that is like a flachete dart. If they included this specific round then it would be classed as an illegal firearm. But as it's strictly sold as firing plastic BBs it is a "get around' and therefore perfectly legal to own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resistor170 Posted February 5, 2019 Share Posted February 5, 2019 Understood now and see what it is about. We were also discussing the wording in the handbook and how it could be interpreted by a police officer when inspecting, say, one of the cartridge airgun revolvers. Personally looking back through it I think there is punctuation missing. After knowing what I know now, it should be written... "if the projectiles are forced out, by gas from a self contained cartridge (these resemble a bullet and casing)... Etc. But instead they don't use the comma so it could be read like this..." if the projectiles are forced out by gas, from a self contained cartridge (resembling a bullet and casing)... Etc. So like as tackle said before, I am inclined to agree this might have been done on purpose to help the police with progress. Please no smart arsed comments about me using incorrect punctuation when pointing out bad punctuation 😉 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1st commando Posted February 5, 2019 Share Posted February 5, 2019 The "self contained cartridge" thing was the so called "brocock ban" and relates to airguns which by legal definition are "firearms" and not to "imitation firearms" which by legal definition are "not firearms". This came up many years ago in relation to moscarts which by basic definition fell under the brocock ban but we clarified as not being subject to it as they were not for use in "firearms" in the airgun category Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resistor170 Posted February 5, 2019 Share Posted February 5, 2019 5 minutes ago, 1st commando said: The "self contained cartridge" thing was the so called "brocock ban" and relates to airguns which by legal definition are "firearms" and not to "imitation firearms" which by legal definition are "not firearms". This came up many years ago in relation to moscarts which by basic definition fell under the brocock ban but we clarified as not being subject to it as they were not for use in "firearms" in the airgun category Yep this question has been cleared up regarding the legalities and how it came about. My questions weren't about the Airsoft rifs but the lead or steel bb 'firearms'. (airsoft forum I know sorry). And about how police officers could interpret that sentence and therefore act upon it - which is unanswerable and I am not going to try to find out! 🤔 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommikka Posted February 5, 2019 Share Posted February 5, 2019 3 hours ago, Resistor170 said: Yep this question has been cleared up regarding the legalities and how it came about. My questions weren't about the Airsoft rifs but the lead or steel bb 'firearms'. (airsoft forum I know sorry). And about how police officers could interpret that sentence and therefore act upon it - which is unanswerable and I am not going to try to find out! 🤔 There’s a PC in the Southampton area who might like to help you with that enquiry, going by the last time he handled a ‘firearm’ taking it out of a deceased’s property by his fingertip in front of all the neighbours, leaving an unauthorized person to go through drawers, missing the blood stained divers knife, the fact that there were two holsters on the belt, and the assorted rifles - one behind the door However following this handling of a filmakers blank firing pistol, missing air rifles , the bollocks he spouted, and some questions being asked by the nok to the chief constables and firearms officers - maybe he won’t be touching any more ever again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporters Rogerborg Posted February 6, 2019 Supporters Share Posted February 6, 2019 18 hours ago, 1st commando said: "imitation firearms" which by legal definition are "not firearms". Why can't the same item be both, for the purposes of different legislation? A pedal cycle is a pedal cycle, a vehicle, and a carriage, depending on what you're being prosecuted with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1st commando Posted February 6, 2019 Share Posted February 6, 2019 52 minutes ago, Rogerborg said: Why can't the same item be both, for the purposes of different legislation? A pedal cycle is a pedal cycle, a vehicle, and a carriage, depending on what you're being prosecuted with. I think a lot of that is down to the way the laws on bicycles have been layered over the years (like a lot of our laws) . Luckily the "RIF" definition is very recent and definitive since the addition of the PCA and VCRA . I know what you mean though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albiscuit Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 Thanks for posting, and I understand the questions some people are asking but for 98% of Airsofters it is generally not an issue, same with airgun users. Use these things sensibly, in private or on dedicated land (skirmish site, range etc) and there should be no issue. Act like a prick and take them out into public or to the park or wave them around the local estate then you have an issue and the ambiguous wording of the law will matter!! 90% of the questions/topics on here regarding the law can be avoided with a little common sense and investigation. If your gifted it, your cousin buys it for you, you paint a two tone etc you just have to think 'who will know' ? technically yes in a lot of instances the actual wording of the law is likely to be broken but the intent is not to break the law, rather than to be able to skirmish, but again, who is to know? under what circumstances are these things checked? they are not! But I know ignorance is no excuse for breaking the law as they say.... Hell half the time we cant agree on the answer to a poster as we all interpret it differently! But its almost a philosophical question. If nobody knows you have broken the law, is it broken? Like if the pope shits in the woods and a tree falls down, did the pope make any noise? or something like that Still a useful thread to have though, im not knocking it. Just having a rant whilst the kettle boils Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporters Prisce Posted February 7, 2019 Author Supporters Share Posted February 7, 2019 14 minutes ago, Albiscuit said: Still a useful thread to have though, im not knocking it. Just having a rant whilst the kettle boils That’s exactly what it’s for though. Pre-warned is Pre-armed so to speak. I’d rather everyone disagreed with me and posted what they know to be true, so others on the future can find it, rather than everyone ignore it. That’s the main purpose of the forum! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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