Does a real firearm license allow me to not be a UKARA registered player?

[GeorgePlaysAirsoft]

^re judge of character -i agree, my point is we are using FAC as short hand for good character, but that is irrelevant anyway.

2nd point - agreed but if we are just talking about the airsoft defence (against being charged with importing/ selling/ manufacturing) then that hinges on making the rif 'avaiable for... organisation of permitted activities...'

[Immortal]

Getting an FAC can be just as much about the FOs attitude/charactor as your own.

[Tommikka]

1 hour ago, Slamz said:

 

This is a joke right? Airsoft guns are toys and always have been, I remember being able to buy pistols in newsagents!

 

 

Something we play games with may not be a toy  in the eyes of the law

 

 

On 17/12/2018 at 15:36, Mooseuk said:

Well what does that make a nerf gun, or for that matter an elastic band gun? Or even, if we want to be pedantic, a bubble gun? Its "shooting" bubbles after all. 

A browse around Smyths showed Very deliberate avoidance of the word ‘toy’ on Nerf Blasters & launchers, a few safety warnings and also the liability avoiding “This is not a protective device” on goggles 

 

The only “toy” guns I could find were non firing orange tipped cowboy guns to be used under adult supervision 

[Tommikka]

3 hours ago, GeorgePlaysAirsoft said:

Thanks but the police didn't issue me a FAC by mistake!!

 

As for logic - we are talking about replica imitation firearms. Can something logically be both X and a replica of X?.. i dunno!? In anycase we aren't talking about what is logical, rather what is legal. 

 

Anyway - the law does consider people who have an FAC and want to sell/import/manufacture a RIF - it treats them exactly the same as anybody else.

 

The question is: How does an FAC demonstrate that you will be using that RIF for skirmishing (at an insured event) with? It doesn't - that is that.

 

Cheers

Firearm and replica firearm were discussed in detail in the thread I linked to above

 

Without the clause quoted in my link airsoft guns would have been low powered air weapons under the firearms act as we’ll as the VCRA which would have put them at risk of conflicting definitions or being exempt from the VCRA 

An air gun that is a replica of a full real steel firearm is treated as an unlicenced firearm in firearms legislation and not a replica in the VCRA (as long as it is within the legal limits)

Paintball guns slot into various parts of firearms legislation and are generally considered low power air weapons with the additional factor of frangible projectiles.  Shoot anything other than a frangible paintball or a first strike shaped projectile and you risk a firearms offence (First strikes were subject to recent testing which approved them but also resulted in anything else being stated as unrecognised.  (Rubber reusable reballs have been dodgy for many years and are now considered unlawful, but are still in use)

The status of paintball under the VCRA has been very grey with differing opinions among officials, the most recent statement being that recognition under firearms legislation renders them exempt from the VCRA as they are not Imitations ..... however the decision could be argued either way in court

 

 

 

But coming down to the sale of a RIF airsoft gun, it’s up to the seller to be satisfied with the buyers ‘defence’

A firearms certificate is not one of the defences under the VCRA

The judgement of my character recognises me as a fine upstanding member of the community and I am empowered to sign off peoples identity for passports and driving licences

I have run airsoft events, but I have no need and no valid defence to buy an airsoft RIF myself 

[Slamz]

23 minutes ago, Tommikka said:

Something we play games with may not be a toy  in the eyes of the law

 

 

 

 

You finding a manufacturer/supplier with a 'not a toy' warning doesn't make them not a toy in the eyes of the law. They shoot little bits of plastic, they also can be two toned so you don't even need a defence to buy one! The only thing that falls under 'the eyes of the law' is the fact SOME look like realistic firearms, and that's just to do with the way they look, not the fact they shoot little bits of plastic. 

 

Are you just trying to deny them being toys to make it seem like you don't run about in the woods of a weekend shooting toy guns at people? 😂😂

[Tommikka]

2 minutes ago, Slamz said:

 

You finding a manufacturer/supplier with a 'not a toy' warning doesn't make them not a toy in the eyes of the law. They shoot little bits of plastic, they also can be two toned so you don't even need a defence to buy one! The only thing that falls under 'the eyes of the law' is the fact SOME look like realistic firearms, and that's just to do with the way they look, not the fact they shoot little bits of plastic. 

 

Are you just trying to deny them being toys to make it seem like you don't run about in the woods of a weekend shooting toy guns at people? 😂😂

We’ll have to agree to disagree

If the law gets involved it’ll be treated as a low power air weapon.  Airsoft guns are enough of ‘not a toy’ to have their own statement added to firearms legislation to state that they are not considered firearms to enable them to be IFs or RIFs under the VCRA.  Along with other restrictions on age etc ..... which aligns with air weapon legislation

 

 

 

And actually I have not run around the woods shooting people with anything for 2 or 3 years.

I have however run around and stood around getting shot by people in that time 

I plan to shoot a lot of people in 2019

 

[Slamz]

7 minutes ago, Tommikka said:

 

If the law gets involved it’ll be treated as a low power air weapon. 

 

 

You'll probably find if you end up causing enough of an issue that the police are involved (i.e you hold up the local Lidl) you'll get fucked with the full force of the Firearms act and they'll try and pin a section 5 offence on you (and rightly so) which doesn't really help my 'toy' case, but that's just due to the way that they look and the fear they'll cause your nan.

 

Quote

We’ll have to agree to disagree

 

Deal.

[AshOnSnow]

They are not related, having an FAC has no bearing on purchasing a RIF.

 

You do not need UKARA to buy a RIF, as long as you have a valid VCRA defence. UKARA is simply an easy route to have that defence.

 

As for the above, Slamz is correct. Committing an offence with an airsoft gun may warrant prosecution as if it were an illegally held firearm. Not a “low powered air gun”. The low powered air gun thing is more about your BBs or Pellets landing in a road or someone else’s property. Not using a RIF as if it were a section 5 firearm.

[Rogerborg]

10 hours ago, AshOnSnow said:

You do not need UKARA to buy a RIF

 

Nobody needs anything to buy or attempt to buy a RIF.

 

Go and speak to the local airsoft shop.

[Tackle]

6 hours ago, Rogerborg said:

 

Nobody needs anything to buy or attempt to buy a RIF.

 

Go and speak to the local airsoft shop.

I'm glad Rog has said this, it's what I've been thinking all along, the laws are pretty crap & sometimes a little grey, go along to the shop, have a friendly chat & show them your fac & any other relevant documents, hopefully common sense will prevail ?.

[sonofsammo]

Just a thought - I think UKARA becomes relevant for internet sales more than shop sales.
It's an easy way for you to show the shop that there is a defence for them to sell to you, without them having to know you or anything about you.
In my two local shops, they know me and they don't ask for a defence. 

[CharlieS.]

On 17/12/2018 at 10:08, rocketdogbert said:

It’s because Airsoft are Realistic IMITATION Firearms, not a real ones. 

 

They have different uses entirely.

 

I was at RoE in Hadleigh recently, they’re an Airsoft, Airifle and Firearms dealer. They deal with the police all the time, up to and including section 5, and they couldn’t sell an Airsoft pistol to a firearms officer (to help him with dog training) without a letter from his Chief Constable. 

I shoot on the daily basis, I own a .223 and a Smith and Wesson M&P 15-22 which is basically a semi automatic .22 carbine, I am always confused how I am allowed to own weapons that can kill, and cause life threatening injuries yet not a pea shooter like a black airsoft gun! Airsoft is just for fun and if you have a firearms that gives you access to imitation firearms like M4 remakes (that's my M&P .22) well I don't understand why I couldn't own a simple airsoft gun... I have had all the medicals and the inspections from my local police so it's not like I am going to rob a bank with an airsoft gun... or brandish it in public.

[Guest]

34 minutes ago, CharlieS. said:

I shoot on the daily basis, I own a .223 and a Smith and Wesson M&P 15-22 which is basically a semi automatic .22 carbine, I am always confused how I am allowed to own weapons that can kill, and cause life threatening injuries yet not a pea shooter like a black airsoft gun! Airsoft is just for fun and if you have a firearms that gives you access to imitation firearms like M4 remakes (that's my M&P .22) well I don't understand why I couldn't own a simple airsoft gun... I have had all the medicals and the inspections from my local police so it's not like I am going to rob a bank with an airsoft gun... or brandish it in public.

That’s the law.

 

I know exactly what real guns are, plenty of real steel owners here. What relevance does having an FAC  have towards owning a toy gun? Zero. 
 

I guess petition your local MP to get slots added to an FAC for RIF’s 🤣

 

 

[Rogerborg]

40 minutes ago, CharlieS. said:

I don't understand why I couldn't own a simple airsoft gun... I have had all the medicals and the inspections from my local police so it's not like I am going to rob a bank with an airsoft gun... or brandish it in public.

 

<them-feels-bro.png>

 

We know, it's ridiculous.  Particularly when air guns that look identical to either the real steel and the airsoft version can be bought and sold without any sort of loicence or defence; or you can buy a two-tone airsoft IF plus a rattle-can of matt black from Poundland if you have stick-'em-up intent and don't know that air guns exist.

 

Given the attitudes to anything remotely gun related, and the gradual legislative creep towards prohibited-by-default and prove-your-innocence, it's a wonder that we're still permitted any of the above.

 

I'm just enjoying it while it lasts, and It's not rocket surgery to find ways around the UKARA wait.

[Guest SoupyXo]

19 hours ago, Rogerborg said:

I'm just enjoying it while it lasts, and It's not rocket surgery to find ways around the UKARA wait.

a coat of paint removes the wait... well it does and it doesn't you still gotta wait for the paint to dry, but thats neither here nor there... 

[sonofsammo]

If you have a FAC, you have to state, in advance what you are requesting. It doesn't give you an authority to purchase anything that's not on there.
It's funny that the people who have mentioned it's ridiculous that they can't buy a RIF have not lamented the fact that they are not permitted to buy shotguns either.
To buy shotguns (unless they are section one and you have slots for them on your FAC), you have to have a shotgun certificate, which is entirely separate from a Firearms Certificate. And easier to get.

And nobody seems to have a problem with that.
"But, but, if I have a FAC, surely I'm alright with a shotgun?" Sure - go and get the right paperwork.
Same thing applies for buying a RIF - If you want it, just jump through the hoops.
It sure as chuff works out cheaper if you do! - Silverback SRS £450 & 2.5p per shot - Desert Tech SRS £6000 & £4 per shot.

[Rogerborg]

1 hour ago, sonofsammo said:

And nobody seems to have a problem with that.

 

Not one that's been mentioned here, but it is an equally ludicrous and arbitrary situation.  Both that a FAC is harder to get and more explicit but doesn't give you shotgun privileges, or that shotgun certs are effectively "shall issue" and then let you build an unlimited armoury of unrecorded smoothbores, up to 2" cannons.  I will never get tired of asking 2A fetishists complaining about the UK's "disarmed populace" and claiming that they'd arm themselves if they could, how their shotgun cert application is going.

 

I'd say that current firearms legislation has the pragmatic effect of working, except that it doesn't, given that mental cases are still going on shooting sprees.

 

The whole thing really needs a comprehensive revocation and reform to simplify it and make it consistent, but what are the chances of that happening?

[Guest]

28 minutes ago, Rogerborg said:

The whole thing really needs a comprehensive revocation and reform to simplify it and make it consistent, but what are the chances of that happening?

The trouble is, any new legislation will 100% make it much more difficult to obtain and use firearms. There is no way any government would be able to pass anything firearms related without tightening rules even further.

My biggest concern is that competition target shooting is dying a death, mostly because mummy refuses to let her little soldier (do you see the irony right there?) take part in school or cubs/scouts shouting lessons. My gun club has less than 20 members, mostly all old buggers like me.

 

Rant over 

 

[sonofsammo]

33 minutes ago, Rogerborg said:

The whole thing really needs a comprehensive revocation and reform to simplify it and make it consistent, but what are the chances of that happening?

The challenge with any kind of reform, is that generally reform means further limitations.
They've recently just banned MARS and lever release rifles even though a) they have never been involved in crime and b)they have never been involved in crime.

Literally any further legislation will be used to take more classes of firearms away from us. It's a shame the firearms community is such a disorganised, compartmentalised shower of shit when it comes to defending itself.

 

[Rogerborg]

9 minutes ago, sonofsammo said:

They've recently just banned MARS and lever release rifles even though a) they have never been involved in crime and b)they have never been involved in crime.

 

And .50 BMG, because of all those bank heists that got done with Barretts.

 

 

9 minutes ago, sonofsammo said:

Literally any further legislation will be used to take more classes of firearms away from us. It's a shame the firearms community is such a disorganised, compartmentalised shower of shit when it comes to defending itself.

 

Yes, I should have qualified to what's the chances of any change being in our favour?

 

Like most "communities", the gun-shaped-object one is more what you'd call a set of squabbling tribes only looking out for their own self interests.  To wit: paintballers trying to parasite off of our defence, and my desire to throw them an anchor rather than a lifeline if it keeps my silly hobby going for a bit longer.

 

I don't think there is a solution to that, other than to cry "why oh why can't we all just get along", with the same effects as that plea has had in every other brother-war since Abel and Cain.

 

[sonofsammo]

2 minutes ago, Rogerborg said:

 

And .50 BMG, because of all those bank heists that got done with Barretts.

Eh??? They're still legal. They just have extra conditions for ownership. The 50cal owners club was at the Northern Shooting Show the other day, so it's still very much alive and kicking.

 

 

Yes, I should have qualified to what's the chances of any change being in our favour? 😞 

 

Like most "communities", the gun-shaped-object one is more what you'd call a set of squabbling tribes only looking out for their own self interests.  To wit: paintballers trying to parasite off of our defence, and my desire to throw them an anchor rather than a lifeline if it keeps my silly hobby going for a bit longer.

 

I don't think there is a solution to that, other than to cry "why oh why can't we all just get along", with the same effects as that plea has had in every other brother-war since Abel and Cain.

So true. But we can dream...
 

 

[Floperator]

1 hour ago, Rogerborg said:

 

...let you build an unlimited armoury of unrecorded smoothbores, up to 2" cannons...

 

All shotguns you possess must be recorded on your certificate, and you can only have as many as you can store securely in FEO approved gunsafes (for which the guidance has recently changed, no more cheap cabinets, now you need a proper safe).

Edited May 11, 2022 by Floperator

[Rogerborg]

1 hour ago, sonofsammo said:

Eh??? They're still legal. They just have extra conditions for ownership. The 50cal owners club was at the Northern Shooting Show the other day, so it's still very much alive and kicking.

 

Ah, last I checked, they were on the "ban their face off" list along with MARS, not because one was used in anger, but because one was stolen, and then recovered.  I didn't spot that The Saj gave them a respite, to the performative horror of the usual suspects.

 

 

1 hour ago, Floperator said:

All shotguns you possess must be recorded on your certificate, and you can only have as many as you can store securely in FEO approved gunsafes (for which the guidance has recently changed, no more cheap cabinets, now you need a proper safe).

 

Cheerfully corrected - I haven't looked into this in detail since the 1990s when "proper" shotgun users were sniffy that historic reenactors were getting SGCs for buying black powder muskets and small cannons, and wanted a separate category for us.  It's always been rats in a sack.

[Rogerborg]

Tee hee. Just seen this on Twatter.

 

 

It's both hilarious and appalling how many of the replies are apparently sincere "Rrrraragh MUH Secund Amundmant rites!  Molton Labia!!!!!!"

 

Even after having the obvious pointed out, it's "MUH PIONT STILL STANS!!!!"  

[Shamal]

Haha.

You can shoot anything but hit nothing 🙂