Firearm ban

[Holt19851985]

So this is a really tricky one, I have a family member that used to play airsoft along time ago and would like to go back to it with us, there is of course only one issue a firearm ban.

 

He ended up in prison and because of the sentence length got himself an automatic firearm ban.

 

Spoke to the firearm department they don't even know they just say bb guns are air powered firearms so it's a no.

 

I read on a police website that the power an airsoft rifle makes it toy like and isnt classed as a firearm.

 

Can you play airsoft with a firearm ban.. It's a really tricky one. I don't see why you should be stopped from a hobby like this for an unrelated prison sentence ect.

 

Hopefully someone can help clear this up

 

Many thanks in advance

[Sitting Duck]

bollox - pretty sure ukara has no mention of any previous

 

besides can still buy a 2-tone over counter

so pretty sure ukara can be obtained by imbalanced nutters, people with form etc...

(not saying your m8 is imbalanced - just stating other examples)

 

unless I'm wrong but pretty sure no CRB checks done to place on database

(maybe they should but it is just a toy gun and like said anyone over 18 can buy a 2-tone)

[M_P]

bollox - pretty sure ukara has no mention of any previous

 

besides can still buy a 2-tone over counter

so pretty sure ukara can be obtained by imbalanced nutters, people with form etc...

(not saying your m8 is imbalanced - just stating other examples)

 

unless I'm wrong but pretty sure no CRB checks done to place on database

(maybe they should but it is just a toy gun and like said anyone over 18 can buy a 2-tone)

What the VCRA says is the important bit though, not UKARA

[TheGrover]

Sounds like the copper was just trying to stay on the safe side. In legislation, an airsoft gun (that isn't modified to be crazy powerful) isn't a firearm. The easy way to test this is to shoot someone. If they could potentially be killed or suffer life changing injuries as a result, then it's a firearm. If they just swear at you and shoot you back, then they are a real airsofter and you're just pratting about with toy guns

[Russe11]

If it's a firearms ban, then airsoft should be fine. The VCRA classes them as Imitation firearms. If they were firearms then they would not be imitations.

[Holt19851985]

I am waiting for an actual firearms officer to call me back in the subject, I really hope he listens to what I have say unlike the woman I spoke to at the main office who just read out anything that shoots projectiles missiles ammo, or is air powered means you can't play airsoft.

 

I agree with what you are all saying fully, and can't see the issue at all here

[Sacarathe]

A LOT of firearms offences do not distinguish between firearms capable of shooting and deactivated/imitation firearms, so watch out, even if he was allowed to play, his history - depending upon what the sentence was - can unfortunately predicate the possibility of the law establishing 'intent'.

 

I believe this is section 21 of the firearms act 1968?

 

Considering airsoft weapons do cause injury... you've got right there "possessing firearm with intent to cause injury". I doubt there is anything to be done on the "it's not a firearm front". Injury can afteral be psychological and using it as a club. That said, making sure this person does not touch/possess them off the field would be very prudent.

 

Hope you get the result you want.

[Avionyx]

I hope it doesn't affect him.

 

I'm trying to find reference to a story from a couple of years ago I remember reading on a re-enactment forum.

 

A chap received a visit from the police over a break in to his shed (IIRC) whereby they noticed his re-enactment gear and locker which contained his RIF's - they asked to see them and he obliged then less than 12 hours later he got swooped on and all his stuff confiscated as he had a firearms ban.

Can't remember many more details but it sets a bad precedent.

[Holt19851985]

I hope it doesn't affect him.

 

I'm trying to find reference to a story from a couple of years ago I remember reading on a re-enactment forum.

 

A chap received a visit from the police over a break in to his shed (IIRC) whereby they noticed his re-enactment gear and locker which contained his RIF's - they asked to see them and he obliged then less than 12 hours later he got swooped on and all his stuff confiscated as he had a firearms ban.

Can't remember many more details but it sets a bad precedent

 

this doesn't look promising, i am hoping if the worst comes to the worst he can just play airsoft without owning his own gun, just rentals at the site on the day

[BrightCandle]

This is one part of the current Airsoft legislation I don't really get. Having gone through the requirements of VCRA and also the firearms legislation I personally think that airsoft weapons are classed as firearms.

 

But they aren't treated as them by general retailers because all airguns must specifically be sold face to face and your name and address must be entered into a local registration. Given that we don't do that with airsoft kit I would suspect that they don't fall under the the definition of an air weapon in the UK, because if they do then every single retailer is breaking the law.

 

So on the one hand I don't understand why they aren't classed as airguns, they quite clearly meet the requirements to be classed as a gun yet no one acts like they are anything but toys and so on that basis in practice I don't believe a firearms ban prohibits the ownership of airsoft imitation weapons.

[BigAl]

They are not classed as airguns because they are not, there are separate laws for airguns. Neither are they Firearms. As long as he isn't doing anything dodgy with them he is perfectly entitled to own and use them, as long as he has a defence.

[Sacarathe]

Quote

Spoke to the firearm department they don't even know they just say bb guns are air powered firearms so it's a no.

 

Well, that's correct, but airsoft guns are not BB guns.

[Shizbazki]

Right let me try and help you in this context!

 

Using the latest Guidance on Firearms Licensing Law as of March 2015

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/417199/Guidance_on_Firearms_Licensing_Law_v13.pdf

 

According to Section 1.1, the definition of a Firearm is:

"A Firearm is defined as a lethal barrelled weapon of any description from which any shot, bullet or other missile can be discharged"

 

Reading straight on to section 1.2 states:

Low powered air weapons are not licensed in England and Wales unless they are of a type declared specially dangerous by the Firearms (Dangerous Air Weapons) Rules 1969 but there are restrictions on their sale.

 

Hmm that restrictions on their sale sounds a lot like "UKARA" to me?

Section 1.3 tells us what "Specially Dangerous" means:

An air weapon is “specially dangerous” if it is capable of discharging a missile with kinetic energy in excess, in the case of an air pistol, of 6 foot lbs or, in the case of other air weapons,12 foot lbs.

 

Pistol: 6 foot lbs = 8 joules = an FPS of 938FPS using .2g BBs

Rifle: 12 foot lbs = 16.3 joules = an FPS of 1326FPS using .2g BBs

 

However the correct part we are after in this guide in the regards to Firearms License is this Section 2.5 and 2.6 states:

Testing has been conducted by the Forensic Science Service on the actual lethality thresholds for airsoft BB 6 mm plastic pellets (0.2 grams). This work has become necessary in the light of the Violent Crime Reduction Act since a greater focus has been given to differentiating between realistic imitation firearms (often used for airsoft skirmishing) and firearms above the lethality threshold that would fall to be considered low powered airguns (or Section 5 (1) (a) prohibited weapons if capable of fully automatic fire).

 

Based on that work, we think it is safe to conclude that fully automatic airsoft guns operating at 1.3 joules or less and single shot (or semi automatic) airsoft guns operating at 2.5 joules or less would not engage the lethality threshold crossing over into stricter controls under the Firearms Act. This would mean that airsoft firearms that are also realistic imitation firearms operating at or below these thresholds would, nonetheless, not be required to be sold by a Registered Firearms Dealer but that the other control provisions provided by the Violent Crime Reduction Act would apply. Please note that this has not yet been tested by the courts.

 

Based on the above two paragraphs we can surmise that Airsoft weapons even those firing 6mm .2g BBs at even 2.5 joules of energy DO NOT meet the lethality threshold, because they DO NOT meet the lethality threshold they CANNOT be considered a firearm no matter how realistic they are, therefore it would be unlikely that he would be in breach of his Firearms Ban as that applies specifically to lethal barrelled weapons, furthermore I think a Firearms Ban specifically applies to him if he were to apply for a Firearms Certificate to own a firearm and that he is banned from ever owning such a certificate for any lethal barrel firearm. Airsoft weapons as realistic as they are do not fall under the same category.

 

However there are still restrictions on carrying these things in public, normal common sense (i hope applies).

 

In your case get advice from your local firearms officer or better yet the Firearms Licensing officer, the PC at the Police Station front desk will likely not know the answer to your question or even know where to find it.

 

I hope it helps by pointing you in the right direction.

[Sitting Duck]

So the short answer is ????

 

Probably ok to obtain a RIF with ukara/defense

as it is likely to not be classed as firearm

 

putting it into context of a sort - so what ???

 

he could still get ukara'd and the chance of him being raided stuff confiscated

suppose any of us may have that risk even with a defense

if a few neighbours start making bull$hit allegations I was tearing up the community shooting cats kids & cars etc....

 

jeeeez - maybe if he got sent down for armed robbery, GBH etc.... I could perhaps get my head around it more

 

seek clarification is best advice but really can't see it being a lifetime ban on toy guns

 

The world can be a daft place - ban on firearms - but bet some violent people can still buy a carving knife set from Argos ffs

[Avionyx]

 

In your case get advice from your local firearms officer or better yet the Firearms Licensing officer, the PC at the Police Station front desk will likely not know the answer to your question or even know where to find it.

 

 

 

^This is the only real answer. Hope your friend gets the response he's hoping for!

[Holt19851985]

rsoft guns are basically toys and therefore are not Firearms so any ban is irrelevant, there is no reason why they cannot play on an airsoft site or us a hire gun.

 

Best Regards

 

UKARA Admin

 

 

I emailed ukara that is the response I received, I am still waiting for the actual officer to contact me I will try ringing him today or contacting different offices in another region, but all this advice here is helpful in my argument towards why he should still be allowed to play.

 

You have all been great so far thanks again

[Holt19851985]

Shizbazki thanks for posting and looking so far into it 😀, I used sections of that to email various people a few days ago before coming to this forum yet only a few emailed back no one of importance

[Shizbazki]

Shizbazki thanks for posting and looking so far into it , I used sections of that to email various people a few days ago before coming to this forum yet only a few emailed back no one of importance

 

No problem, i know it was a bit of a long read but i thought rather than just give you a short line and say "yeah he should be fine", i thought to back up my words using legislation and added my own annotations to make it clearer as i know that UK Law can often be written in an archaic way hence why people give lots of money to Lawyers who know how to read this stuff (i am not a Lawyer though).

[Tad]

If he is caught with an IF, he will most likely be prosecuted again.

 

Remember, that until it is declared an IF by a proffesional (Gun tech or such). It is treated as a Realistic firearm.

 

Saying this, something like your circumstance is COMPLETLY grey in the eyes of the Law, and is probably something that we as a community should ask the government to clearly define.

[skarra333]

You're doing right exploring this with the authorities themselves...

As above, I think we should be very very careful assuming in any way that forum logic will apply to the police or legal systems...

 

I advise you get something in writing from the police, courts or probation services (have you contacted the National Offender Management Service) confirming it is ok, otherwise tell your friend not to have possession of one unless it is at most, a rental from a legit site within the boundary of said site.

 

Hope you get what you need.

[Holt19851985]

You're doing right exploring this with the authorities themselves...

As above, I think we should be very very careful assuming in any way that forum logic will apply to the police or legal systems...

 

I advise you get something in writing from the police, courts or probation services (have you contacted the National Offender Management Service) confirming it is ok, otherwise tell your friend not to have possession of one unless it is at most, a rental from a legit site within the boundary of said site.

 

Hope you get what you need.

i did email the minister of justice, who replied and told me to take it up with the home office which i have forwarded the email to.

 

once i find out an actual answer i will be sure to let you all know the outcome

[Holt19851985]

Well, the firearms officer phoned today the answer was no, you can't play airsoft with a firearms ban and if you are caught you will receive a five year prison sentence.

 

The police still see an airaoft rifle as air powered and thus coming in under the firearm.

 

Something about criminal act maybe vcra not sure missed which act but under section 21.

 

So yea if you have a ban no airsoft for you. You can appeal your ban but it only gets turned over mostly for hardship cases not for someone to go play a sport or hobby.

[ImTriggerHappy]

A firearms ban can cover replica weapons thats probably why airsoft guns fall foul.

Lets be honest it would be just as easy to threaten someone or do an armed robbery with a rif as it would a real gun.

[skarra333]

Well, the firearms officer phoned today the answer was no, you can't play airsoft with a firearms ban and if you are caught you will receive a five year prison sentence.

 

The police still see an airaoft rifle as air powered and thus coming in under the firearm.

 

Something about criminal act maybe vcra not sure missed which act but under section 21.

 

So yea if you have a ban no airsoft for you. You can appeal your ban but it only gets turned over mostly for hardship cases not for someone to go play a sport or hobby.

Is he forbidden from play totally then, even with a rental on a site he'd still get locked up if they caught him? Coppers and law-types have curious logic at times.

[Holt19851985]

Yea total ban, five years if caught playing even with a rental gun as it's in possession of.silly if you ask me.

 

He would be legally allowed to take up archery with a crossbow or normal bow which is lethal but not play airsoft heh.