very confused about sale of RIF's in a shop in cambridge?

[CES_williamson]

Okay guys, so i was in Cambridge yesterday with a friend of mine, and we went into a pawn shop as it looked like there was some cool stuff in there.

I went around the corner saw there was guns and stuff so i immediately went and had a look, to my amazement it wasn'tjust shotguns and air rifles there was also RIF's!!! So i went to the shop worker and asked if i could have a look at one of their guns, he asked if i was over 18 and had a drivers licenence, i dont know why, but i said "no im 16 so dont have UKARA but i just wanted to have a look" and he said that i couldn't look, so i asked if they where UKARA registered as it all seemed a bit fishy, and surprisingly they wernt... i asked what you have to do to buy an airsoft gun from them, and they said you have to be over 18 and with proof you are and they put you on the firearms list thing, but dont need a defense or anything?! just over 18 !!! am i right in saying they are breaking the law or just being paranoid?

Thanks guys.

 

The shop is called:

bowes & co

its near oxfam and the other charity shops around that area of Cambridge.

 

[Mike636]

You are right

 

But nobody gives a shit it's only them that would be in trouble.

[Airsoft-Ed]

There's a pretty gigantic market of replica air weapons as well, I used to have a Walther CP99 that fired 4.5mm lead pellets, but that was most definitely a RIF, it was as real looking as they come.

But to buy that I just had to be over 18, because it's classed as an air weapon. Even though it looks equally as realistic as an airsoft gun, and even though the muzzle energy would've been close to 5 joules, if not more (not sure what air gun pellets weigh).

There's an airgun version of the Dan Wesson revolvers too, they're just chambered for .177 copper BBs instead of 6mm plastic ones, that's the only difference. Yet for the 6mm one, you need UKARA, and for the more dangerous one, you don't.

#BritishGunLawLogic!

Edit:
Kinda forgot my point...
They were probably air guns and not airsoft ones.

[CES_williamson]

nope, they fired our kind of bb's i mean they recommended king arms and elite force bb's!!! i asked the guy and he said they where airsoft guns??

[Airsoft-Ed]

Oh.

Well then I refer you to Mike's original comment lol.

[Serconker]

Air rifles are a weird subject really.

AFAIK they're only allowed to be sold face to face and aren't allowed to be sold over the internet, here in the UK, though I'm not sure about the law with them, as a few years ago me and my father were able to buy them without any defense, considering the second one we got was one that just about came under the legal limit before you needed a firearms license, and even then I don't think he needed a defense.

 

But hey, if it was airsoft RIFs, then, well, they can enjoy having their stock seized, a fine and a few sore asses from dropping soap.

[Gen.Ryzomadman]

Now another thing that sent a alarm off in my head about the shop , selling shotguns .......guess he is a licenced firearms dealer...if not he really is looking at a long stretch at her majestic ones displeasure..

[Deek]

The law is never black and white.

 

Whilst it may be legal to sell an air weapon it could be argued that an air weapon that resembles a real firearm could be classed as a 'realistic imitation firearm'.

 

According to CPS guidance ( http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/d_to_g/firearms/#a02 ) an imitation firearm is;

 

 

 

An imitation firearm means "any thing which has the appearance of being a firearm (other than such a weapon as is mentioned in section 5(1) ( of this Act), whether or not it is capable of discharging any shot, bullet or other missile." section 57(4).

 

and furthermore a realistic imitation firearm is;

 

 

 

Section 38 defines a "realistic imitation firearm" as "an imitation firearm which has an appearance that is so realistic as to make it indistinguishable, for all practical purposes, from a real firearm". As a result of "real firearm" (defined in section 38 (7)) imitations of pre-1870 firearms are not caught by the offence.

 

So, even though a weapon may fall into the category of 'air weapon' it could still fall into the definition of 'realistic imitation firearm'.

 

Because of how complicated the law can be it is near on impossible for law enforcements staff, and in particular the Police, to know every aspect of the law, which is why the Police have specialist departments to deal with Traffic Law, Fraud, etc. so the chances of anybody actually realising an offence has been committed are very slim.

[clumpyedge]

you can buy all sorts of ASG branded stuff in my local cash converters

[GiantKiwi]

Cambridge you say? I will go check it out early next week then, as I've got the week off.

 

Edit: It's a pawnbroker by the looks of it (checked in the yellow pages)

[CES_williamson]

Cambridge you say? I will go check it out early next week then, as I've got the week off.

 

Edit: It's a pawnbroker by the looks of it (checked in the yellow pages)

yeah it is, as you walk in its on the right facing the wall

[Mr Monkey Nuts]

UKARA has absolutely no legal standing or basis. It's a union on retailers who hold a database of names of players who wish to be registered and defined under their criteria.

 

The shop can legally sell to anyone over 18 and with a valid reason to own one. If the shop is prepared to take your word that it is to be used for skirmishing or any other legit defence, then that is their prerogative, there is no requirement in law for you to PROVE you have a valid defence, simply stating it is enough.

 

However, legit airsoft retailers like to use the UKARA as a way to control and regulate who has access to the RIFs in order to keep them and the sport out of the mass media and public eyes.

[NH Shooter]

I walked into a shop today exactly the same... It's no drama.

[two_zero]

not sure if the post works positively as a name and shame, could be helpful for our authorities if they research such things on online forums... or if it's actually will work more towards promoting the store to people without legal defense?

[NH Shooter]

It won't make a blind bit of difference really... No copper will ever look into it... Or care.

 

When I first started in airsoft, I went to a shop... Loads of cheap two tone, and the world's supply of WE guns... The owner tried to push me on a 7inch dragon, and a gbbr. Couldn't have cared less if I had ukara.

 

1 week after my first evet skirmish... Brought a rif, from this forum... No-one actually cares about ukara.

[CES_williamson]

It won't make a blind bit of difference really... No copper will ever look into it... Or care.

 

When I first started in airsoft, I went to a shop... Loads of cheap two tone, and the world's supply of WE guns... The owner tried to push me on a 7inch dragon, and a gbbr. Couldn't have cared less if I had ukara.

 

1 week after my first evet skirmish... Brought a rif, from this forum... No-one actually cares about ukara.

 

actually you will find we do? without ukara or control over airsoft the sport will be banned.

[Mr Monkey Nuts]

No it won't!

 

A few unsavouriness running around with toyguns is not a reason to destroy a multi million pound industry on a whim. The government genuinely couldn't care less, they have got much much much more important things to be trying to ban.

 

To put some perspective to it , cars, motorbikes, alcohol, air fresheners and toasters all cause significant more deaths, danger and drain government resources than airsoft could in a million years, but they show no mention of them been banned.

It's very paranoid and naive to think they will be able to ban airsoft.

[Mack]

No it won't!

 

A few unsavouriness running around with toyguns is not a reason to destroy a multi million pound industry on a whim. The government genuinely couldn't care less, they have got much much much more important things to be trying to ban.

 

To put some perspective to it , cars, motorbikes, alcohol, air fresheners and toasters all cause significant more deaths, danger and drain government resources than airsoft could in a million years, but they show no mention of them been banned.

It's very paranoid and naive to think they will be able to ban airsoft.

Short memory? as they have already tried, VCRA 2006? If it wasnt for UKARA, there probably wouldnt be airsoft in the UK today.

[CES_williamson]

No it won't!

 

A few unsavouriness running around with toyguns is not a reason to destroy a multi million pound industry on a whim. The government genuinely couldn't care less, they have got much much much more important things to be trying to ban.

 

To put some perspective to it , cars, motorbikes, alcohol, air fresheners and toasters all cause significant more deaths, danger and drain government resources than airsoft could in a million years, but they show no mention of them been banned.

It's very paranoid and naive to think they will be able to ban airsoft.

Well they tried to but thats why UKARA was implimented? something like that?

[NH Shooter]

actually you will find we do? without ukara or control over airsoft the sport will be banned.

 

It really won't... You take a perfectly legal two tone. A £6 can of spray. You now have a rif. No-one of any consequence will ever know that it's happened. It's unregulated, impossible to track, and very much like American gun law... Now so far past the information gathering stage that is impossible to claw back.

 

It's an entirely non existent issue...

 

It's an entirely silly bit of admin.

[Deek]

There was a lot of unpleasantness many years ago when the VCR was just a bill and there was no mention of a defence for airsoft.

 

Since the introduction of groups that give airsofters a voice the Home Office have issued guidance of a legal defence for airsoft and airsofters (source: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/the-violent-crime-reduction-act-2006-commencement-no-3-order-2007-firearms-measures )

 

The Government probably won't ban airsoft whilst responsible sites and players exist, but if there is an increase of irresponsible owners and / or irresponsible sites then their is a realistic risk that the hobby may be affected.

 

Whilst there are other things that do cause more harm our hobby uses something that strikes real fear into people, and that is guns, and as far as practicalities go there is no other use for a gun than to shoot at something (granted, some do look good and people do collect them to display), whereas other dangerous items do have purposes (toasters make toast for instance).

 

That said, if enough individuals act in an irresponsible manner and do spray two-tones to look like RIFs and do silly things with them then I am in no doubt that a Government that wants to impress the public will take serious steps to ensure that even two-tones are banned, including stopping imports and the like (which was why the VCRA was introduced in the first place, to try and reduce the public's fear of people running around the UK with guns).

[CES_williamson]

deek i couldn't of said it better myself, everyone listen to him ^^^^ XD

[Mike636]

When the VCRA was brought in I highly doubt that the people who wrote even knew what Airsoft was. It wasn't an attempt to ban or stop the sport at all.

 

As it has been pointed out it doesn't solely refer to RIFs, there are sections a lot of subjects.

 

When it was pointed out to The Home Office about the restrictions it placed on Airsoft they essentially said " What? We didn't even know you guys existed. Look we'll sort it out for you, so go back to playing soldiers I've a moat to clean and you're paying for it"

[NH Shooter]

.......

 

That said, if enough individuals act in an irresponsible manner and do spray two-tones to look like RIFs and do silly things with them then I am in no doubt that a Government that wants to impress the public will take serious steps to ensure that even two-tones are banned, including stopping imports and the like (which was why the VCRA was introduced in the first place, to try and reduce the public's fear of people running around the UK with guns).

And that's my point... The act doesn't stop anyone doing that. Nor did it stop me buying a rif, nor does it stop the 3 shops mentioned in this thread alone, from trading... And if you were to call the police to inform them of this breach in UK law... Nothing would happen. Feel free to try.

 

Nothing we do will stop a bank robber painting his gun black, or stop some kid waving his in public... Nothing. Not a singular action or inaction...

[Mike636]

And that's my point... The act doesn't stop anyone doing that. Nor did it stop me buying a rif, nor does it stop the 3 shops mentioned in this thread alone, from trading... And if you were to call the police to inform them of this breach in UK law... Nothing would happen. Feel free to try.

Nothing we do will stop a bank robber painting his gun black, or stop some kid waving his in public... Nothing. Not a singular action or inaction...

Calm yo tits, what I was saying is that the Government won't ban airsoft because of breaches of the VCRA, The Police would probably do something about it, most likely pass it to trading standards as they have plenty of work to be getting on with as it is.

 

Nothing written in law will stop a person from committing criminal damage or stealing a car if they want to - unless you have a constable in every back garden in the country but as before they are short handed and busy. What the law can do is charge people if they are caught.

 

Also your last sentence is bollocks -

 

"Nothing we do will stop a bank robber painting his gun black, or stop some kid waving his in public... Nothing. Not a singular action or inaction.."

 

Watch this -

 

***ATTENTION BANK ROBBERS AND CHILDREN ***

 

DON'T POINT YOUR PRETEND GUNS AT PEOPLE IN THE STREET OR PEOPLE WITH REAL GUNS AND TOO MUCH HAIR PRODUCT WILL COME AND ARREST/SHOOT YOU

 

******** END OF MESSAGE ********