VCRA & retailers undermining it

[Raptors Spider]

As if Zero One ignoring membership rules wasn't bad enough, it now appears Firesupport are lobbying to place airsoft under registered firearms dealers only. No internet sales, no second hand sales, just a few big retailers to get fat and rich fleecing customers.

 

http://www.airsoftodyssey.blogspot.co.uk/2013/11/vcra-reboot-proposals.html

 

if true, then players need to voice their opinions, loudly.

[Monty]

I just saw this on Airsoft Operator, some very scary stuff. Could ruin the hobby completely.

[two_zero]

Maybe this could be sticky or red title or something.. mods? dev?

[Deva]

Maybe if I could see the source. At the moment you can only really regard it as speculation.

[adam bussey]

I doubt frank would have proposed this as it would get rid of most of his customers as they sell the majority of their RIF's online

[NickM]

I sincerely hope this is speculation! If true this could kill airsoft.

[TacMaster]

Yeah, very much so. I've just got a couple of mates into it as well, if this changes like it's been said they have 0 chance of getting their first AEG

[Bottledtorment]

This GIF just this GIF

 

[jcheeseright]

so far this is a rumour started by someone who in my eyes at least is less than 100% trustworthy.

 

until Fire-Support make a statement I wouldn't go boycotting them, Frank is a genuine standup guy who a lot of people seem to forget was one of the people who fought for the airsoft exemption in the VCRA and Fire-Support are one of the founding members of UKARA.

 

Put the pitchforks and torches down, there'll be no lynching tonight.

[Zak Da Mack]

Someone on ZeroIn has claimed that he has received an email from Frank with his proposal on it. Is this trustworthy?

[jcheeseright]

until Fire Support make some kind of statement, or someone provides proof and FULL disclosure of what was said I will continue to buy from Fire Support.

 

I can't imagine the company which fought so hard for the VCRA exemption in the first place killing their own business with this rubbish, makes no sense.

[two_zero]

btw.. another thing. the article seems to suggest airsoft guns being classed as air guns would stop second hand sales... But unless I am much mistaken, it's only retailers who have to make air gun transactions face-to-face, ea. this would not affect 2nd hand sales at all (well, might push the price up since the demand would get higher)

 

 

Also I might have been a bit hasty and I apologise. I stand neutral until further information. I doubt I will buy from them in the near future, but rather because I do not regularly purchase from them. The one time I did, the service was excellent.

 

 

Also rumours could have been started by competition or an angry customer.

[M_P]

Also worth remembering that Yosser's blog is the daily mail of airsoft- it contains a lot of crap.

Could just be stirring stuff up for his own amusement.

 

On the other hand their could be a real issue, however we won't know until FS announce anything so for the time being lets not have so many knee-jerk reactions- makes the airsoft community look a bit like the US gun nutters.

Best just to wait it out.

 

 

 

 

 

I may have just bought from them too...

[AK47frizzle]

 

 

Bad Firesupport, bad. Go home and rethink your entire life.

[Rock-climby-Dave]

Someone on ZeroIn has claimed that he has received an email from Frank with his proposal on it. Is this trustworthy?

>ZeroIn

>Is this trustworthy?

>Claimed

>an

>Frank

 

>An Frank

>Anne Frank

>ZeroIn not trustworthy

>ZeroIn confirmed for denying the holocaust

 

 

*please don't take that joke the wrong way*

 

 

I agree that this would undermine FS completely, it should be left until FS or yosser update the public on this. This kinda things would take a while to get through, adding to firearms laws are only going to complicate and confuse matters.

[JoW.]

Alas, the main hindrance in fully adopting the RFD/FAC style of regulation for RIFs is **the bloody things are not themselves restricted**. As the ACPO already complain that licensing Section 1 firearms is underfunded these days, I highly doubt they are going to support extending this to non-firearms (airsoft guns, specifically those that are capable of self loading, specifically rate under the 1ft lb muzzle energy test limit set out by the FSS's guidance on lethality so they don't count as firearms). Without licensing of every airsoft RIF in a police register, you get the rather silly situation whereby a store new RIF has to be transferred from an RFD with all the extra paperwork and record keeping, but any other RIF can be freely bought and sold within the VCR defence. If this is more than just rumour, I reckon the retailers involved are giving themselves a hell of a lot of make work.

 

Without licensing of airsoft guns themselves (and the 'benefits' of this would be pretty hard to prove, since the items only impart 'harm' when used in a threatening manner which is already an offence in oh so many ways, and, unlike non-FAC airguns, airsoft RIFs are below the lethality test threshold as above) this would be a completely ludicrous situation to get into. If the ACPO are complaining that VCR is unenforceable already, I think they would be two steps ahead of this and see that this notion is even more unenforceable.

[M_P]

This is the supposed email sent around.

 

This is the email which has been sent to the UKARA members. If it is real, it backs Yosser's story and shows that this is real and that Yosser once again is the forefront of airsoft reporting.

 

"Hi All

 

Please for now keep this confidential within the Airsoft retailers.

 

For the last 12 months I have been speaking to FELWEG the Firearms section of ACPO (The Association of Chief Police Officers), as high as you can get in Police Firearms area.

 

This is because I have been frustrated by not being able to help out UKARA members who report breaches of the VCR Act or report people exploiting loop holes. I get evidence and then noone in power seems to want to do anything.

Also RFDs cause problems by selling RIFs to anyone over 18 based on a perceived power level rather than the evidence from the Forensic Science Service report.

 

ACPO has been trying to find someone in Trading standards to enforce the VCR Bill because they do not think it is a Police remit.

 

As I have said to them both neither group want to take responsibility for enforcing the law as they always say please report to the other group.

 

In the last month ACPO have finally admitted in writing after trying to get Trading standards involved that they believe that the VCR Act as far as RIFs are concerned is not enforceable.

They emailed this information to the Home Office and copied to me.

 

The Home Office are now looking into what can now be done to make changes to make the law enforceable and simpler.

 

There hopefully will now be a consultation process (this may take a while, it took 2 years to sort out the VCR Act) involving interested parties as what can be done now.

I have asked to be involved in this process.

 

I spoke to the Home Office yesterday and they have asked for suggestions.

They are going to do something to change the situation, so better we are involved at the start in a positive way, than to just be faced with another botched solution.

 

My suggestion to you is that if changed we need to simplify the process whilst making it easier to sell guns.

 

My thoughts are:

 

As a good percentage of UKARA Airsoft shops are already RFD Air weapon retailers and if not then it is reasonably easy to become one.

(Firesupport is not an RFD Airweapon registered shop but all we would have to do would be apply and all that is required is a few simple changes)

 

The Home Office in the past have said that they would not support the sole use of any one checking system such as UKARA as this would create a cartel type environment which they could not condone.

 

My suggestion to get rid of any loop holes, interpretations and just ignorance of law and make it easier to enforce, as follows :-

 

Should accepted (big should) it would mean the end of UKARA, the end of need for checking players, no more annual fees and be able to sell to anyone over 18. Or they make take on board some or none of what we suggest.

 

Suggestion:-

 

All RIFs should be sold through Air weapon RFDs, (at least 50% of UKARA retailers are already RFDs)

RIFs to be sold to 18 and over only

Only Air weapon RFDs should be allowed to import RIFs

No restrictions on posting RIFs.

2nd hand sales only through Air weapon RFD monitored resources.

 

Please can you reply back by end of November 2013 with your agreement to my suggestion or alterations or alternate suggestions so that I can collate and resend out to members for comment.

 

Should I get no reply from you then I can only assume you don't care which system is taken forward or we end up with.

 

Thanks

Frank"

[Airsoft-Ed]

Basically, any changes that are made, we'll know about and if they're shit, people will go ballistic and it'll end up getting changed again.

Stop getting your knickers in a twist, I don't think what Frank has brought to the table are even particularly bad suggestions.

[Rock-climby-Dave]

OK, so after reading that:

1. It DOESN'T state that you can't sell a RIF online. My interpretation of this would be that a RIF is still seperate from an air rifle and as such can be sold online/by phone

2. You want a RIF? go out and buy a sodding RIF. No more two tone bollocks.

3. Enforceable, clear laws

4. SWAT can stop being asshats over the UKARA thing. Yes, I KNOW it's not legally required, guys. But for fucks sake, just go with it for your players sake!

 

an interesting thing there is:

2nd hand sales only through Air weapon RFD monitored resources.

 

I read that as:

You can sell 2nd hand, provided the source (internet forum for example) is monitored by an RFD.

As there are forum members, as well as myself who would become RFDs to continue employment, does the forum become self-moderating within itself?

 

and just so we're clear on my stance prior to and post reading that post:

 

Prior to, with only the Dailymirror Yossers badly reported post:

Do not agree with and find it hard to believe Frank would do that

 

Post reading of aforementioned post:

Not only do I agree with the points, I fully support the change. It makes sense to have laws we can enforce, no?

[NickM]

Hmmmm actually as that email stands ( if it is the real thing) its not all that bad, some of it sounds downright sensible.

 

And he is right about there being an issue with reporting and prosecuting offenders.

 

If its truly his email then he doesn't claim to be doing anything on UKARA's behalf, just as a concerned retailer. And you are right about 2nd hand sales being overseen by RFD. Airrifles are dealt with in a similar way with second hand sales being sorted out through them. A seller posts the air rifle to them and they give it to the buyer direct so ID can be verified if I understand their system correctly.

[Airsoft-Ed]

The only part of it that I don't like is having 2nd hand sales monitored by an RFD, I'd rather have the information on a public database and simply have it updated to show who sold what to who and when, instead of having to go through a retailer. It'd save time and effort.

[sp00n]

One point I picked up on is you wouldn't be able to import rif's any more, so I guess that means price fixing >.<

[Hubert]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ussCHoQttyQ

 

 

Reading through that email (assuming it's genuine) - I'm struck by one of Frank's comments.

 

ACPO has been trying to find someone in Trading standards to enforce the VCR Bill because they do not think it is a Police remit

 

 

This is, IMHO, the main flaw with the VCRA, UKARA, et al - no one really wants to do any of the work. You can report violations as much as you want, but I'll be damned if I've ever seen action taken.

 

Whatever happens though, it's not going to happen over night. VCRA from the initial brainwave to final completion and legislation took over 5 years.

[Rock-climby-Dave]

So as the more sensible forum, I think we're mostly in agreement that:

 

BREAKING NEWS

EVERYTHING IS FINE

It appears to just be Yosser being a bit of a berk again.

Everyone fine with that?

Good.

[Ian_Gere]

No, I'm far from fine with it. It is a step in the direction of tighter control, which is a slippery slope. The problem with the VCRA is not that nobody wants to enforce it, it's that it flies so far in the face of common sense that it is unenforceable. Just for one instance, how on earth can anyone keep a straight face when contemplating arresting somebody for not painting an airsoft gun 51% orange* before selling it to an adult who could perfectly legally buy the same gun, manufactured by the same company, but more powerful, without any paint, so long as s/he turns up in person to collect it?

 

The answer is not to say, "Well, it is silly so the only way to fix it is to apply a degree of control to these items which is deemed necessary for some far more dangerous items, even though they were originally accepted as innocuous enough to require a different approach, and even though there are far more dangerous items for sale with little or no control whatsoever," the answer is to say -

 

"This doesn't work, scrap it. Airsoft 'guns' are toys, not firearms, not dangerous airguns, not crossbows, not swords, nor even baseball bats of which hundreds are sold but never used for baseball; in fact they are specifically made so that they can be fired at people wearing minimal protection without producing significant injury. We already had perfectly adequate laws under the firearms act to prosecute anybody for brandishing something which is or looks like a firearm in public, we have laws against threatening behaviour, extortion, robbery, aggravated robbery, armed robbery, assault, actual bodily harm, grievous bodily harm, and making threats to kill; we do not need anything else to to stop adults from committing offences with imitation firearms and if we feel that minors cannot be trusted to behave responsibly with them, we simply need to make them age restricted so that minors can only have them at the discretion of their parents, in the same way that they can have far more dangerous items."

 

My friends this is not the time to be meekly offering up further restrictions ourselves, in the hope of avoiding worse being imposed; it is the time to say "We told you so! Look! It's a fucking shambles! Leave us alone; we are quite capable of maintaining common sense driven self-policing within our sport/hobby and that approach will serve the wider community better than any half-baked measures which take no account of how our community functions. We are the people who are going to notice dodgy retailers and stupid individuals first and we have a vested interest in seeing them warned and/or nicked. As for the more egregious uses that imitation firearms could be put to, does anyone really imagine that buyers having to show ID in person will prevent criminals obtaining RIF's? Does licencing prevent criminals from obtaining firearms? No. So Bugger Off!"

 

 

*In fact, how is a copper to know if 51% of a complex 3D shape is a particular colour, ffs? Is s/he expected to be an expert in computer aided topography analysis or whatever? It's just pants. Bin it.