Colin Allen Posted March 11 Share Posted March 11 7 hours ago, hitmanNo2 said: I couldn't see any Just Cos on Companies House... Surely they should be registered? Seems a bit suspect. Complete lack of info on their site. They describe themselves as a club, so are possibly set up as an unincorporated association. Havoc 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporters Popular Post Rogerborg Posted March 11 Supporters Popular Post Share Posted March 11 Let's be serious. Just Cos is a side gig of one Scotch airsoft retailer that's now nothing more than a fraudulent way for them to (not) claim a defence for selling RIFs to anyone who wants one for any reason. While it may have been set up in good faith in 2017 or so, it's a pointless service for cosplayers as there are no realistic 3rd party risks that it could indemnify. Its only purpose now is to add £20 to the cost of buying a RIF. I'd prefer that retailer didn't do this, but the risk is on them, and it's as close to zero as makes no difference. Galvatron, ak2m4, Tommikka and 4 others 6 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ak2m4 Posted March 11 Share Posted March 11 12 hours ago, Dan Robinson said: database of data hehe I like that, apparently it's the best kind 🙂 Lozart and Tactical Pith Helmet 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Tommikka Posted March 12 Popular Post Share Posted March 12 I’ve decided to bite the bullet and have signed up to JustCos to see the policy cover for myself …… On sign up (and payment) you receive a copy of the policy certificate (Zurich insurance): Name of Insured: Just-Cos This is to confirm that Just-Cos have in force with this Company until the policy expiry on 17 May 2024 insurance incorporating the following essential features: Policy Number: @@@@@@@@@@ Renewal Date: 18 May 2024 Limits of Indemnity: Public Liability: £5,000,000 any one event Products Liability: £5,000,000 for all claims in the aggregate during any one period of insurance Pollution Liability: As per Products Liability Professional Services Extension £1,000,000 any one event Note: Cover for Financial Loss, and Third Party Property Damage or Bodily Injury is provided where arising from advice or services carried out by the Insured in the furtherance of its purpose as a registered charity or not-for-profit organisation. Excess: Public Liability: Nil any one claim Products Liability: Nil any one claim Pollution Liability: Nil any one claim Professional Services Extension: Nil any one claim Indemnity to Principals: Covers include a standard Indemnity to Principals Clause in respect of contractual obligations. Full Policy: The policy documents should be referred to for details of full cover. That means unlike the wording on the JustCos website I have not purchased insurance of £5m public liability for £20, but I have joined a club/society that has £5m PLI ‘per event’ - and covers injury / damage arising from the advice of JustCos If I have any actual cover then it’s only the full £5m if I am the only member at any event then I can claim against £5m of PLI, but if there are two or more then the cover drops - there’s no mention of ‘being scarey’, Just-Cos is a membership based insurance policy. We approached them with a view to covering CosPlayers with Public Liability insurance in their right as a re-enactor to wear and carry costume articles that may prove alarming or ‘scary’ to third parties who may not understand our purpose. This policy particularly covers the right to carry imitation weaponry that could otherwise be mistaken as real or mistakenly reported as an offensive weapon. In today’s ‘Americanised’ legal system of ‘No claim no fee’ companies and similar ambulance chasers, it is now more important than ever to be protected by insurance. It’s better to be safe than sorry, right? Just-Cos is exactly that: It’s just for us CosPlayers. You can join up for a small annual fee of £20, that’s it. For your £20 you will receive £5 million maximum claim cover against public liability. It’s quite unlikely that you’ll ever need to use it and we sincerely hope you don’t! That is not all though. With membership we have power! We can use our strength in numbers to apply for discounts and other awesome deals on behalf of the club. This is just the beginning and it’s your chance to be part of it. ak2m4, Tactical Pith Helmet, Rogerborg and 2 others 2 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Allen Posted March 12 Share Posted March 12 12 minutes ago, Tommikka said: I’ve decided to bite the bullet and have signed up to JustCos to see the policy cover for myself …… On sign up (and payment) you receive a copy of the policy certificate (Zurich insurance): Name of Insured: Just-Cos This is to confirm that Just-Cos have in force with this Company until the policy expiry on 17 May 2024 insurance incorporating the following essential features: Policy Number: @@@@@@@@@@ Renewal Date: 18 May 2024 Limits of Indemnity: Public Liability: £5,000,000 any one event Products Liability: £5,000,000 for all claims in the aggregate during any one period of insurance Pollution Liability: As per Products Liability Professional Services Extension £1,000,000 any one event Note: Cover for Financial Loss, and Third Party Property Damage or Bodily Injury is provided where arising from advice or services carried out by the Insured in the furtherance of its purpose as a registered charity or not-for-profit organisation. Excess: Public Liability: Nil any one claim Products Liability: Nil any one claim Pollution Liability: Nil any one claim Professional Services Extension: Nil any one claim Indemnity to Principals: Covers include a standard Indemnity to Principals Clause in respect of contractual obligations. Full Policy: The policy documents should be referred to for details of full cover. That means unlike the wording on the JustCos website I have not purchased insurance of £5m public liability for £20, but I have joined a club/society that has £5m PLI ‘per event’ - and covers injury / damage arising from the advice of JustCos If I have any actual cover then it’s only the full £5m if I am the only member at any event then I can claim against £5m of PLI, but if there are two or more then the cover drops - there’s no mention of ‘being scarey’, Just-Cos is a membership based insurance policy. We approached them with a view to covering CosPlayers with Public Liability insurance in their right as a re-enactor to wear and carry costume articles that may prove alarming or ‘scary’ to third parties who may not understand our purpose. This policy particularly covers the right to carry imitation weaponry that could otherwise be mistaken as real or mistakenly reported as an offensive weapon. In today’s ‘Americanised’ legal system of ‘No claim no fee’ companies and similar ambulance chasers, it is now more important than ever to be protected by insurance. It’s better to be safe than sorry, right? Just-Cos is exactly that: It’s just for us CosPlayers. You can join up for a small annual fee of £20, that’s it. For your £20 you will receive £5 million maximum claim cover against public liability. It’s quite unlikely that you’ll ever need to use it and we sincerely hope you don’t! That is not all though. With membership we have power! We can use our strength in numbers to apply for discounts and other awesome deals on behalf of the club. This is just the beginning and it’s your chance to be part of it. Based on that, it does appear that Just-Cos’ insurance does not protect individual cosplayers as it covers events put on by Just-Cos. The membership is being mis-sold. ak2m4, Tommikka, Tactical Pith Helmet and 1 other 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GenuineGerman Posted March 12 Share Posted March 12 All it really just does is prove you’ve paid to be in a cosplay group and have membership. Can’t see what how pli would give you a Defense? Open to ideas Being in a group might provide a Defense but I think that would depend on the group type. Thinking MVT etc Not sure how the authorities would feel about me cosplaying as a sf operator(mainly cause I’m fat), and using that as reason to buy a rif however I can for and against reasons. Tommikka 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigStew Posted March 12 Share Posted March 12 1 hour ago, Tommikka said: I’ve decided to bite the bullet and have signed up to JustCos to see the policy cover for myself …… On sign up (and payment) you receive a copy of the policy certificate (Zurich insurance): Name of Insured: Just-Cos This is to confirm that Just-Cos have in force with this Company until the policy expiry on 17 May 2024 insurance incorporating the following essential features: Policy Number: @@@@@@@@@@ Renewal Date: 18 May 2024 Limits of Indemnity: Public Liability: £5,000,000 any one event Products Liability: £5,000,000 for all claims in the aggregate during any one period of insurance Pollution Liability: As per Products Liability Professional Services Extension £1,000,000 any one event Note: Cover for Financial Loss, and Third Party Property Damage or Bodily Injury is provided where arising from advice or services carried out by the Insured in the furtherance of its purpose as a registered charity or not-for-profit organisation. Excess: Public Liability: Nil any one claim Products Liability: Nil any one claim Pollution Liability: Nil any one claim Professional Services Extension: Nil any one claim Indemnity to Principals: Covers include a standard Indemnity to Principals Clause in respect of contractual obligations. Full Policy: The policy documents should be referred to for details of full cover. That means unlike the wording on the JustCos website I have not purchased insurance of £5m public liability for £20, but I have joined a club/society that has £5m PLI ‘per event’ - and covers injury / damage arising from the advice of JustCos If I have any actual cover then it’s only the full £5m if I am the only member at any event then I can claim against £5m of PLI, but if there are two or more then the cover drops - there’s no mention of ‘being scarey’, Just-Cos is a membership based insurance policy. We approached them with a view to covering CosPlayers with Public Liability insurance in their right as a re-enactor to wear and carry costume articles that may prove alarming or ‘scary’ to third parties who may not understand our purpose. This policy particularly covers the right to carry imitation weaponry that could otherwise be mistaken as real or mistakenly reported as an offensive weapon. In today’s ‘Americanised’ legal system of ‘No claim no fee’ companies and similar ambulance chasers, it is now more important than ever to be protected by insurance. It’s better to be safe than sorry, right? Just-Cos is exactly that: It’s just for us CosPlayers. You can join up for a small annual fee of £20, that’s it. For your £20 you will receive £5 million maximum claim cover against public liability. It’s quite unlikely that you’ll ever need to use it and we sincerely hope you don’t! That is not all though. With membership we have power! We can use our strength in numbers to apply for discounts and other awesome deals on behalf of the club. This is just the beginning and it’s your chance to be part of it. So most likely you are out under the Forts public liability insurance if that means anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporters Rogerborg Posted March 12 Supporters Share Posted March 12 1 hour ago, GenuineGerman said: All it really just does is prove you’ve paid to be in a cosplay group and have membership. Yarp. 1 hour ago, GenuineGerman said: Can’t see what how pli would give you a Defense? Open to ideas We (if 18+) don't need a defence to purchase a RIF. The seller needs one to flog it to us. Amusingly, the same retailer that's pretending that this is a defence for them (it's not) used to have a stern warning about snitching on buyers for attempting to purchase without a defence. They appear to have knocked that silliness off, at least. Where it might conceivably help is if you're tugged by the fuzz for Firearms Act 1968 S19, public possession of a shooty-shaped-object. While the "reasonable excuse" would still have to be based on the instant conduct, it probably couldn't hurt to be able to flash a policy and say "liability insurance" as a way to bamboozle a copper or CPS apparatchik who thinks that might matter. By the way, I do accept that JustCos was set up with the sincere intention to create a cosplayer advocacy group, but that's clearly long since been abandoned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Allen Posted March 12 Share Posted March 12 7 minutes ago, Rogerborg said: it probably couldn't hurt to be able to flash a policy and say "liability insurance" as a way to bamboozle a copper or CPS apparatchik who thinks that might matter. Which would be approximately none of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommikka Posted March 12 Share Posted March 12 28 minutes ago, BigStew said: So most likely you are out under the Forts public liability insurance if that means anything. Payment went to Cosplayer World Ltd, and the insured name is Just-Cos, so it is a legitimate policy seperate from any site. Very likely to be Zurich’s standard group / club PLI policy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommikka Posted March 12 Share Posted March 12 13 minutes ago, Rogerborg said: Where it might conceivably help is if you're tugged by the fuzz for Firearms Act 1968 S19, public possession of a shooty-shaped-object. While the "reasonable excuse" would still have to be based on the instant conduct, it probably couldn't hurt to be able to flash a policy and say "liability insurance" as a way to bamboozle a copper or CPS apparatchik who thinks that might matter. 5 minutes ago, Colin Allen said: Which would be approximately none of them. I did manage to satisfy the inquisitive police, asking me what I was doing parked up late one evening, with one talking to me through the window while the other curiously scanned through my back window I’’m on my way back from having run an event and am having a rest stop ….. and not quite in these words but to the nosey one at the back ….. “That’s shit loads of guns and pyro bagged & boxed up in there” They were perfectly happy with that ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GenuineGerman Posted March 12 Share Posted March 12 1 hour ago, Rogerborg said: We (if 18+) don't need a defence to purchase a RIF. The seller needs one to flog it to us. Amusingly, the same retailer that's pretending that this is a defence for them (it's not) used to have a stern warning about snitching on buyers for attempting to purchase without a defence. They appear to have knocked that silliness off, at least. Where it might conceivably help is if you're tugged by the fuzz for Firearms Act 1968 S19, public possession of a shooty-shaped-object. While the "reasonable excuse" would still have to be based on the instant conduct, it probably couldn't hurt to be able to flash a policy and say "liability insurance" as a way to bamboozle a copper or CPS apparatchik who thinks that might matter. 20 quid down the Swanee unless your going to go to comicon dressed as ghost from MW then really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommikka Posted March 12 Share Posted March 12 7 minutes ago, GenuineGerman said: 20 quid down the Swanee unless your going to go to comicon dressed as ghost from MW then really. Or Darth Harry But it is worthless insurance for any liability an individual could have, that the insurers could reject Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JinxDuh Posted March 12 Share Posted March 12 A long time ago (In a galaxy far away), I purchased AFRA ("All Fronts Re-enactment Association") which gave me a physical card with my face, DOB etc on it. Many retailers allowed this to be used as a valid defence to purchase a RIF (Including, for example, patrol base). In fact, I used this when I purchased my first "proper" (As in, not to be used for reenactment/display) G&G M4 before I had even got a UKARA. Their set up was very similar to JustCos in the way the insurance worked. I don't recall needing to supply any evidence of being in a reenactment group either, they just took my money and sent a card and away I went. Much like JustCos, anybody could purchase it. I remember at the time, there was a LOT of "if's and buts" regarding the actual liability insurance. From the reenactor side, being able to purchase a defence to buy RIF be it BF or Airsoft it's great. From the airsoft side, being able to buy a defence to buy a RIF - Not so much. Quite a contradiction, I know but unfortunately airsoft is more threatened than the buying of BFer's. In an ideal world, everybody would follow the rules and behave themselves but that's never ever going to happen 😂 Rogerborg and Tactical Pith Helmet 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Allen Posted March 12 Share Posted March 12 1 hour ago, Tommikka said: I did manage to satisfy the inquisitive police, asking me what I was doing parked up late one evening, with one talking to me through the window while the other curiously scanned through my back window I’’m on my way back from having run an event and am having a rest stop ….. and not quite in these words but to the nosey one at the back ….. “That’s shit loads of guns and pyro bagged & boxed up in there” They were perfectly happy with that ! Because you were not doing anything illegal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Tommikka Posted March 12 Popular Post Share Posted March 12 1 hour ago, Colin Allen said: Because you were not doing anything illegal. Or they didn’t catch me …… You are of course correct I have for a long time been an advocate for not being a dick and not using ‘special words’ to avoid saying the scary ‘gun’ word Use your brain, handle appropriately (your kit and the people you encounter), don’t be a dick and outcomes are normally good GenuineGerman, Colin Allen, Tackle and 3 others 5 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Robinson Posted March 12 Share Posted March 12 So the insurance policy is pointless in and of itself - WTF kind of incident are we as airsofters going to be involved in that needs a payout - it would be covered by the site insurance/waiver (arf) that we signed that day. Carrying a RIF isn't illegal in and of itself unless you are doing something stupid with it..... So it is a scam/rouse to allow unscrupulous pew purveyors to flog RIFs with a £20 surcharge on the first purchase and lock the buyer into buying only from them. I might contact Patrolbase/Bespoke Airsoft and see what their policy would be towards a previously validated purchaser returning in the future without UKARA. BTW see other thread on Bespoke Airsoft - I went to their new pad today. Tommikka 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporters Popular Post Rogerborg Posted March 13 Supporters Popular Post Share Posted March 13 12 hours ago, Dan Robinson said: Carrying a RIF isn't illegal in and of itself unless you are doing something stupid with it..... In public? It is. Sorry to bang on about it, but this is a far bigger concern for us than obtaining a RIF. https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1968/27/section/19 19 Carrying firearm in a public place. A person commits an offence if, without lawful authority or reasonable excuse (the proof whereof lies on him) he has with him in a public place [...] an imitation firearm. Realistic or otherwise. See this conviction for possession of a £4 bright orange springer pistol which even the prosecution described as a toy. The Sheriff set the bar for "reasonable excuse" very low, for example "children playing cowboys and Indians", which would presumably cover our infantile antics, but the proof whereof lies with us. Whether having a RIF/IF inside your car counts as having it in a public place is less obviously clear, but coppers think that it is. PACE 1984 Section 1 makes a distinction between a vehicle that's in a public place versus the grounds of a dwelling, which implies that the vehicle itself does not create a private place in public. In this case, for example, a chap (who comes across as a prize wanker) was arrested and charged for having a baton in his car. I can't find details of how the case went - some commenters suggest that he was acquitted - but the process is enough of a punishment. tl;dr version - yes, it's illegal, and we have to prove otherwise. I keep details of the site to hand, and ideally booking emails, when travelling to or from it. Dan Robinson, ak2m4, DanBow and 3 others 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Robinson Posted March 13 Share Posted March 13 Perhaps I should be more specific..... Transporting a RIF sensibly to a skirmish (or home, shop).... I don't mean walking around as if you think you're John Wick. If you're pulled over by the fuzz with a load of RIFs in your car and you act like a dick with or without a reason for them being there....expect to get tazed and arrested. Tommikka and Egon_247 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporters Rogerborg Posted March 13 Supporters Share Posted March 13 If we're being technically correct - the best kind of correct - then simple public possession is "illegal in and of itself". I'd like us to be very clear on that. It's not for the State to prove (or even suspect) that we're "doing something stupid with it." It's up to us to show that we're not. As you say, this isn't generally going to be a problem for actual airsofters. However, in the context of a thread asking "How 2 get RIF without play airsoft tho?" I feel it's worth mentioning. Dan Robinson 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post BigStew Posted March 13 Popular Post Share Posted March 13 13 minutes ago, Rogerborg said: If we're being technically correct - the best kind of correct - then simple public possession is "illegal in and of itself". I'd like us to be very clear on that. It's not for the State to prove (or even suspect) that we're "doing something stupid with it." It's up to us to show that we're not. As you say, this isn't generally going to be a problem for actual airsofters. However, in the context of a thread asking "How 2 get RIF without play airsoft tho?" I feel it's worth mentioning. Reminds of the Glasgow cosplayer who didn't see the issue walking around outside the convention in full riot gear with a blood splattered riot shield and a very easy to see MP7 strapped to his leg,in general Cosplayers have less common sense than airsofters. So basically fuck all. Galvatron, Dan Robinson, Nick G and 3 others 4 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cannonfodder Posted March 13 Share Posted March 13 8 hours ago, Rogerborg said: In this case, for example, a chap (who comes across as a prize wanker) was arrested and charged for having a baton in his car. I can't find details of how the case went - some commenters suggest that he was acquitted - but the process is enough of a punishment. What an absolute bellend. He was being antagonistic and deserved to have the book thrown at him. I've had a couple of instances where I've been stopped by the police and they could've made an easy arrest but didn't. I think a big part of this was because I was polite and respectful rather than a cocky shit. Simply put if you fail the attitude test then prepare for your day to be ruined Havoc and Tommikka 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Tommikka Posted March 13 Popular Post Share Posted March 13 As this topic covers a few areas, and to make a dedicated thread, I’ve added the above mentioned information plus some other information arising from the Just-Cos membership / policy I’ve contacted Just-Cos about some of the issues, so we’ll see what happens Havoc, Rogerborg, Cannonfodder and 2 others 1 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tactical Pith Helmet Posted March 14 Share Posted March 14 14 hours ago, Rogerborg said: In this case, for example, a chap (who comes across as a prize wanker) was arrested and charged for having a baton in his car. I can't find details of how the case went - some commenters suggest that he was acquitted - but the process is enough of a punishment. He was acquitted. He put it down to the quality brief that he could afford. Their is an archived BBC article that I found earlier on another device, hence sorry no link. Extendable batons are not legal for non-crown office holders/military etc. Cheque book justice. Rogerborg 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galvatron Posted March 14 Share Posted March 14 10 hours ago, BigStew said: Reminds of the Glasgow cosplayer who didn't see the issue walking around outside the convention in full riot gear with a blood splattered riot shield and a very easy to see MP7 strapped to his leg,in general Cosplayers have less common sense than airsofters. So basically fuck all. I wonder if he was the same smooth brain I saw at Birmingham ComicCon, also in riot gear and open carrying an MP7 in clear view of the public. 🙄 Tactical Pith Helmet 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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