Europe Vs. America

[Rogerborg]

15 hours ago, Leo Greer said:

I built it to see if I could do it

 

There is no finer reason.

 

My concern - and won't somebody think of the children! -  is that stuff that's built by sensible sorts then gets sold on to fund the next project.  And even if you sell to a carefully vetted vet, you can't control where it goes two or three owners down the line.  I'd rather that sort of toy just didn't exist at all, lest it end up in the hands of Mr No-Full-Auto-In-Buildings-Bro.

[Tiercel]

Flat/R hopping was all the rage here like 10 years ago when I first started people were wanking themselves silly over it, it was too much effort back then and its too much effort now when a good maple leaf rubber and omega nub achieve the same results  

 

The biggest difference between UK and US airsoft is you dont get stuff like this happening here

 

 

 

 

Also see wankergun/wankergunner  High RPS is for people who cant aim and have no skill.

 

[Leo Greer]

4 hours ago, Rogerborg said:

 

My concern - and won't somebody think of the children! -  is that stuff that's built by sensible sorts then gets sold on to fund the next project.  And even if you sell to a carefully vetted vet, you can't control where it goes two or three owners down the line.  I'd rather that sort of toy just didn't exist at all, lest it end up in the hands of Mr No-Full-Auto-In-Buildings-Bro.

 

This is an extremely valid reason. The one consolation is that once you get past 45 RPS parts tend to wear a lot faster, and without skillful maintenance can easily grenade themselves, since you're so close to PME. Any kind of compression jam and your gearbox goes kaput. Definitely something to think about, especially in the USA where it's not crazily uncommon to see builds pushing 60 RPS up for sale.

 

Not that this lessens my own responsibility, but I will point out that anyone can buy a Polarstar and achieve much the same thing. Maybe not 70 RPS, but you can push 50 without real trouble. I'm not sure how prevalent HPA is in the UK, but it's very common at certain site here to see "kids" (13-16 yo wankuhs) with serious HPA setups, as I'm sure y'all know from the YouTube crap. Thankfully that doesn't go on at most fields.

 

 

[Cannonfodder]

Hpa is quite common over here. You're right about hpa set ups being an easy route to getting a wankergun and that's probably why it has a bit of a bad rep. For example there's one person on here who seems to think hpa automatically equals cheater

[BigStew]

2 hours ago, Cannonfodder said:

Hpa is quite common over here. You're right about hpa set ups being an easy route to getting a wankergun and that's probably why it has a bit of a bad rep. For example there's one person on here who seems to think hpa automatically equals cheater

I don't think HPA is synonymous with cheater just being a spamming wanker, which from personal experience seems to be the case.

Edited May 16, 2023 by BigStew

[Leo Greer]

12 minutes ago, BigStew said:

I don't think HPA is synonyms with cheater just being a spamming wanker, which from personal experience seems to be the case.

 

Things may be very different at your local fields, but at least in my experience,  it depends, again, on who's shooting the gun. For some examples of perfectly clean, no BS HPA gameplay, check out this guy: Chaos Wolf Airsoft I play with him regularly--he pretty much only uses reserved semi.

[Cannonfodder]

34 minutes ago, BigStew said:

I don't think HPA is synonyms with cheater

Maybe cheater is the wrong word but there are definitely some who see a player with a hpa set up and automatically assume the person is going to be fiddling with the regulator or over killing. Don't get me wrong, I've met quite a few dickheads with HPA guns but I've also met HPA players who are really stand up players. Imo the stigma comes from the fact that its easier for someone to act like a cunt with hpa than an aeg as turning an allen key or spanner doesn't involve the teching skills that building a similar performing aeg does

 

23 minutes ago, Leo Greer said:

 it depends, again, on who's shooting the gun

This.  As with many things in life, the problems are caused by the flesh coloured squishy bit

[Impulse]

1 hour ago, BigStew said:

I don't think HPA is synonyms with cheater just being a spamming wanker, which from personal experience seems to be the case.

 

Only HPA guns I have are a bolt action sniper rifle and a semi-auto m21 build (so... another sniper rifle).

 

Not all HPA users are spammy wankers, and not all spammy wankers are HPA users.

[Tommikka]

The ease of HPA abuse (or let’s be a little bit fair that perhaps the player ‘innocently’ fiddles with an Allen key) …. surely the site could easily lock/tag the regulator, tape/tag any access panels to a circuit board?

Because they are of course running a clear & consistent chrono and tagging process? And have management/staff who are experienced / capable of watching gameplay to spot usual/unusual ranges being achieved, the sound of appropriate/inappropriate rates of fire and also conduct valid random and where appropriate targeted in game and game entry chrono checks ……

 

 

 

((PS I know that I’m not experienced enough to spot these in airsoft, but in paintball my spidey senses can tingle when one players shooting sounds very different to the rest / usual play, and / or that pop-whoosh-splat/ding has a different ring to it))

 

Ive chronoed & velocity checked players who have been all good - just well tuned and efficient, but I’ve also caught the odd ‘rogue spike’ that’s magically occurred 

[Rogerborg]

50 minutes ago, Tommikka said:

Because they are of course running a clear & consistent chrono and tagging process? And have management/staff who are experienced / capable of watching gameplay to spot usual/unusual ranges being achieved, the sound of appropriate/inappropriate rates of fire and also conduct valid random and where appropriate targeted in game and game entry chrono checks

 

Not sure if serious, but damn, that's funny either way.

 

I honestly can't recall the last time I saw decent marshalling.  Absent, distracted, disinterested, timid, or professionally angry, sure, plenty of that.

 

I really must get along to the new Depot 2.0, as the old site had the only really solid marshalling that I've ever seen, anywhere that I've played.

[Tackle]

3 hours ago, Cannonfodder said:

 For example there's one person on here who seems to think hpa automatically equals cheater

Wot only one 😜

[Tommikka]

8 hours ago, Rogerborg said:

 

Not sure if serious, but damn, that's funny either way.

 

I honestly can't recall the last time I saw decent marshalling.  Absent, distracted, disinterested, timid, or professionally angry, sure, plenty of that.

 

I really must get along to the new Depot 2.0, as the old site had the only really solid marshalling that I've ever seen, anywhere that I've played.

You would have hoped it was serious

But real life doesn’t appear to have these basics in place to ensure the basics are enforced……

 

 

On a fairly serious tack of the same subject, a site ought to have insurance and to adhere to VCRA/UKARA principles would be insured ??? and also any basis HSE/council checks a business open to the public ought to have industry standards systems and working practices in place 

 

For airsoft/paintball/activity insurance there should be a risk assessment, mitigations and an insurance price based on the remaining risk.

An insurer may have just sold a ‘standard’ insurance package for the related industry/activity.  But even that will have small print and obligation on the site.

 

Waivers are well known on here for being misnamed / misunderstood - they are not a get out clause relieving a site of responsibility, but a confirmation that the player or their responsible adult understands and will comply with the basic safety requirements - therefore the basis safety requirements should be documented, made available and also complied with by the site.

 

 

 

It’s laughable that many sites ‘cannot afford the staff’,  but airsoft is supposedly ‘cheaper’ because it has plastic balls that take up less storage space and also don’t degrade in days / hours.

There is the argument that it’s a luxury activity when people are choosey on how they spend their money when the economy isn’t great, alongside with the overheads of a site - but airsoft is always ‘cheaper’ even in an economy boom.

If the site can’t afford to run the basics

of the staff to do safety checks then the price should go up or the business isn’t viable 

 

Both airsoft & paintball are arguably sold too cheaply to the player.  
In paintball the ‘high expense’ is down to street ticket sellers under cutting other brands in the 80s/90s resulting in Delta Force dominance (and its name changes) and then laying on the real extra costs on the day

 

Paintball is now in a trap that no site can up its price as their competition will take the customers.  All they can do is put in various price structures and to diversify with multiple activities available - give the options that customers are going to want, and also help sell to stag/hen/corporates with a multi activity day 

 

Airsoft really ought to also be run on multi activity sites on a business basis (including zombie experiences etc)

If a site is exclusive to airsoft, is it so good a site/experience that it can run a viable business in that manner?  Or are they only doing airsoft, not doing the basics and relying on ‘player marshals’ to work for free / pay for the privilege to work ?

 

(Bearing in mind I’m going to be working for free this weekend, and not only that but I’m getting up early Friday morning after getting back from London on the late train, to pickup, drive, work for free, nip off for a wedding reception and work for free the rest of the weekend.  But that is for free entry, and build / expand friends business …. Not the entire business model)

 

The rant on the basics of event safety may be over

[Leo Greer]

Glad this thread is going in interesting directions...

[Rogerborg]

16 minutes ago, Leo Greer said:

Glad this thread is going in interesting directions...

 

Revisiting old ground for us.

 

I have a lot of sympathy for site runners, as it tends to be a weekend passion project for them, not a pay-the-rent business. On the other hand, I agree with @Tommikkathat many of them are half-arsing it and hoping for the best.

 

I'm not sure what the legal situation is in the Great State of Texas, but in the UK we can't waive our statutory rights to sue for negligence that results in death or injury.  And yet most sites require us to sign these silly waivers that profess to do just that.  It's a little concerning that they seem to believe they have a get-out clause, given that on most sites, on most days, you can see shenanigans unfold that they should (by their own published rules) be dealing with.  Generally minor stuff, but people - children, even - do sometimes lose an eye.

[Leo Greer]

9 minutes ago, Rogerborg said:

 

Revisiting old ground for us.

 

I figured.

 

9 minutes ago, Rogerborg said:

 

I have a lot of sympathy for site runners, as it tends to be a weekend passion project for them, not a pay-the-rent business. On the other hand, I agree with @Tommikkathat many of them are half-arsing it and hoping for the best.

 

I'm not sure what the legal situation is in the Great State of Texas, but in the UK we can't waive our statutory rights to sue for negligence that results in death or injury.  And yet most sites require us to sign these silly waivers that profess to do just that.  It's a little concerning that they seem to believe they have a get-out clause, given that on most sites, on most days, you can see shenanigans unfold that they should (by their own published rules) be dealing with.  Generally minor stuff, but people - children, even - do sometimes lose an eye.

 

In the USA, you are allowed to waive your right to sue. People still will try, and it's a hassle for the site, but there's no legal grounds, and most sites nowadays should be under LLCs anyways.

 

Had a guy just recently get a BB stuck underneath his tongue. I don't get why people think wearing only glasses is cool...

[Rogerborg]

3 hours ago, Leo Greer said:

In the USA, you are allowed to waive your right to sue.

 

Hmm, with an interesting distinction between "ordinary" and "gross" negligence.  Well, interesting, and lucrative for lawyers arguing over the difference.

 

We have a blanket voiding of any such terms, for any degree of negligence.

 

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1977/50/section/2
 

"A person cannot by reference to any contract term or to a notice given to persons generally or to particular persons exclude or restrict his liability for death or personal injury resulting from negligence."

 

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/15/section/65

 

"A trader cannot by a term of a consumer contract or by a consumer notice exclude or restrict liability for death or personal injury resulting from negligence."

 

(Losses other than injury or death can be reasonably waived)

[BigStew]

10 hours ago, Tommikka said:

 

 

Airsoft really ought to also be run on multi activity sites on a business basis (including zombie experiences etc)

If a site is exclusive to airsoft, is it so good a site/experience that it can run a viable business in that manner?  Or are they only doing airsoft, not doing the basics and relying on ‘player marshals’ to work for free / pay for the privilege to work ?

 

(Bearing in mind I’m going to be working for free this weekend, and not only that but I’m getting up early Friday morning after getting back from London on the late train, to pickup, drive, work for free, nip off for a wedding reception and work for free the rest of the weekend.  But that is for free entry, and build / expand friends business …. Not the entire business model)

 

The rant on the basics of event safety may be over

Most sites are restricted to 24 or 28 game days a year before they become crippled by business rates and planning permission restrictions ( hence why you don't get many milsims they are rarely profitable so why lose a regular walk on day?) . Airsoft is trapped by limited customer base who aren't prepared to pay what it would cost to be more than in most cases a one man show that depends on volunteers who do it for free games and petrol money. Add eye watering insurance premiums high rent and uncertain durations( how much are you willing to invest if you are going to lose your site in a years time to a housing developer are wind farm?) 

Edited May 17, 2023 by BigStew

[Cannonfodder]

IIRC insurance can also be a limiting factor for the number of game days a site can run.

 

11 hours ago, Tommikka said:

Airsoft really ought to also be run on multi activity sites on a business basis (including zombie experiences etc)

Personally I'd prefer them not to be as in my experience it can often have a negative effect on the quality of the games they put on, either because the site owners are more interested in taking your money than putting on a decent gameday or the site layout suffers as they need to accommodate the other activities.

[Tommikka]

45 minutes ago, BigStew said:

 ( hence why you don't get many milsims they are rarely profitable …. 

As an event organiser, been there, done that, and literally do have the T shirts, hoodies, etc…. ‘Profit’ just means we didn’t spend enough 

 

But we have never run anything for the money, only ‘for players, by players’, and design / run the games that we wanted to play but only getting to watch others 

 

Our first events were for the privilege of running the events, income to the site and charity … and our date in the calendar was due to the site finally calling our bluff and giving us a weekend in the quiet season - but benefited in the sense that we opened the event season each year. (Even so far that a commercial organiser that scheduled a game on the same date as ours and ‘allegedly’ were going to end us. That didn’t happen)

 

We have profited. But everything has gone straight back in, or more often two of us have personally ‘invested’ far too much up front for specific events.  I know what’s in the accounts, and I’ve a hunch about the ballpark of the rest.

That doesn’t count sponsorship.  We’ve been very proud of what we’ve done with their products, but as sponsorship is a form of advertising it’s hard to believe they get their VFM - especially having sponsored teams myself, though that started as a joke and ended up with people actually paying for my services

1 hour ago, BigStew said:

Most sites are restricted to 24 or 28 game days a year before they become crippled by business rates and planning permission restrictions 

 

One in particular I’m aware of has not only the annual number of days limited, but also  a direct cost for just having one person step on site.

That’s directly impacted on our event planning & preparation 

 

[Tommikka]

1 hour ago, BigStew said:

…..business rates and planning permission restrictions

….limited customer base

….depends on volunteers who do it for free games and petrol money.

…. insurance premiums

….high rent and

…..uncertain durations

 

12 minutes ago, Cannonfodder said:

….. often have a negative effect on the quality of the games they put on,

All valid reasons and also everywhere has different circumstances

 

 

But it’s no excuse for failing basic safety standards 

If it’s not financially viable and they can’t afford to have someone actually check & enforce chrono then it’s verged on the fly by night cowboy 

 

 

[Cannonfodder]

7 minutes ago, Tommikka said:

But it’s no excuse for failing basic safety standards 

If it’s not financially viable and they can’t afford to have someone actually check & enforce chrono then it’s verged on the fly by night cowboy 

No arguments there, I've no idea of the actual costs of setting up and running a site but I'm sure the cost of a chrono is minimal in comparison and any site owner who says they can't afford a chrono is obviously talking out of their arse (and would make me wonder what else they're bullshitting about)

[Rogerborg]

15 minutes ago, Cannonfodder said:

any site owner who says they can't afford a chrono is obviously talking out of their arse

 

Lets talk honestly: most site runners would rather sit in their shop being noshed off by a coterie of matey-mates, than actively walk around the safe zone welcoming rentals and newbies, or telling people things that they won't want to hear at the chrono station.

 

That's an observation, not a value judgement.

[Tommikka]

Just now, Rogerborg said:

 

Lets talk honestly: most site runners would rather sit in their shop being noshed off by a coterie of matey-mates, than actively walk around the safe zone welcoming rentals and newbies, or telling people things that they won't want to hear at the chrono station.

 

That's an observation, not a value judgement.

Wrong 

 

It is a valid & valued judgement 

[Tommikka]

45 minutes ago, Cannonfodder said:

No arguments there, I've no idea of the actual costs of setting up and running a site but I'm sure the cost of a chrono is minimal in comparison and any site owner who says they can't afford a chrono is obviously talking out of their arse (and would make me wonder what else they're bullshitting about)

A chrono could be sourced in the region of £50 to £100 (even cheaper too, but ideally a site should be going for something over £100 to actually go through regular use

 

Back in my early days of paintball, when taking my own gun to a rental site the ‘magic chrono tree’ was often use because the staff couldn’t be bothered to go in the shed and find the site one

(assuming that they even had one for the site guns)

For events there would be one ‘big red’ box official site chrono, and a long queue which was made twice as long because of those players that had to keep going back to tune down within limit and also keep going back to turn up if they went too low

 

So I bought my own basic yellow handheld so I could set up ready myself then get through official chrono first time 

I upgraded to an X-radar grey handheld when it was released for the ease of use plus ROF.

Both of those were circa £80 to £100

(the x radar has a hardier site version to go on a tripod and doesn’t need the button pressed for manual checking - obviously will cost more)

 

Events would now be expected to have tables of self checking chronos, which would get manned for official checks, and Marshall’s out carrying handhelds

A tournament would have a self check chrono area, official handheld 100% check as teams go into the first games.

Followed by spot checks

 

These will be using the Virtue clock handheld series.  Ours was £200 for the v1 which is still the dogs testicals

Upgraded versions will be in the £200 to £300 and I think there’s a new one circa £400 which will give you a back massage as you check the player 

A site that’s properly serious might want one that collects data & produces reports - but we’re just after something to make a site just make the effort of checking 

 

In airsoft I’ve typically seen that the ‘shoot through’ style could be the preference, but they are all just a classic speed gun piece that is ideally optimised to spot a flying thing in a suitable range of velocities - and that’s exactly what the clock looks like 

 

Our clock is so much fun and can even chrono a paintball at a distance. (I wouldn’t trust that for accuracy snd don’t know if it could spot a BB from a distance)

But I’ve been able to spot a dodgy player and sneakily chrono without them knowing before pouncing.

 

[BigStew]

I always wonder if airsoft sites should become sports clubs rather than business but could see it would be too easy for one team to muscle control if they were large enough. for now we are stuck in a twilight need the sport to be legit but being too legit could see every site under too many local councils/ civil servants with agendas and egos that either want any reason top shut sites down or bleed them dry ( the current model sites operate on are not a route to obscene wealth as many seem to think).