Some questions about UKARA and RIFs

[boskee]

Hi guys,

 

My mate seems to think police across the UK have an access to the UKARA database, which they check before sending Armed Police to an address at which someone saw you "through a window" (his words) holding an RIF.

 

My understanding of the law is as follows:

 

1. UKARA is a non-governmental database
2. It is only accessible by retailers, UK Border Agency (when checking imports) and Hampshire Police (also when it concerns imports), as per UKARA website
3. Its purpose is to protect Airsoft sellers from prosecution in case they sell a gun to an idiot who's going to use it outside of the Airsoft game
4. Armed Police doesn't have access to UKARA, and waving your RIF anywhere is a bad idea. He seems to think "Armed Police will check UKARA database first, because it's cheaper and logical". Well, it doesn't sound very logical to me, since UKARA holder can also have an actual, illegal firearm they're waving, and not a replica. 
5. You can purchase RIF without UKARA number (eg. from a private seller, as online retailers seem to require UKARA number), as long as you're 18+ and you have a valid defence. You can also legally obtain RIF as a gift. 

 

Am I correct here? 

 

Edited March 1, 2023 by boskee

[mp5a4]

You are completly correct. I have a few RIFs, no UKARA atm. Doesn't matter if I have it or not though. 

[CR91]

22 minutes ago, boskee said:

Hi guys,

 

My mate seems to think police across the UK have an access to the UKARA database, which they check before sending Armed Police to an address at which someone saw you "through a window" (his words) holding an RIF.

 

My understanding of the law is as follows:

 

1. UKARA is a non-governmental database
2. It is only accessible by retailers, UK Border Agency (when checking imports) and Hampshire Police (also when it concerns imports), as per UKARA website
3. Its purpose is to protect Airsoft sellers from prosecution in case they sell a gun to an idiot who's going to use it outside of the Airsoft game
4. Armed Police doesn't have access to UKARA, and waving your RIF anywhere is a bad idea. He seems to think "Armed Police will check UKARA database first, because it's cheaper and logical". Well, it doesn't sound very logical to me, since UKARA holder can also have an actual, illegal firearm they're waving, and not a replica. 
5. You can purchase RIF without UKARA number (eg. from a private seller, as online retailers seem to require UKARA number), as long as you're 18+ and you have a valid defence. You can also legally obtain RIF as a gift. 

 

Am I correct here? 

 

 

Edited March 1, 2023 by CR91

[boskee]

12 hours ago, CR91 said:

 

 

Edited March 2, 2023 by boskee

[Guest]

If your mate thingking armed police are going to check the UKARA database he’s a f****** idiot

 

They will shoot you, hopefully dead, just after they’ve screamed “armed police” and you haven’t put your toy down.

 

And nobody would blame them.

[Krisz]

50 minutes ago, boskee said:

Hi guys,

 

My mate seems to think police across the UK have an access to the UKARA database, which they check before sending Armed Police to an address at which someone saw you "through a window" (his words) holding an RIF.

 

My understanding of the law is as follows:

 

1. UKARA is a non-governmental database
2. It is only accessible by retailers, UK Border Agency (when checking imports) and Hampshire Police (also when it concerns imports), as per UKARA website
3. Its purpose is to protect Airsoft sellers from prosecution in case they sell a gun to an idiot who's going to use it outside of the Airsoft game
4. Armed Police doesn't have access to UKARA, and waving your RIF anywhere is a bad idea. He seems to think "Armed Police will check UKARA database first, because it's cheaper and logical". Well, it doesn't sound very logical to me, since UKARA holder can also have an actual, illegal firearm they're waving, and not a replica. 
5. You can purchase RIF without UKARA number (eg. from a private seller, as online retailers seem to require UKARA number), as long as you're 18+ and you have a valid defence. You can also legally obtain RIF as a gift. 

 

Am I correct here? 

 

You can certainly buy RIF's from private sellers and not having ukara or some other form of defence. You can buy two-tones from a shop so you don't need ukara in that case either.

When someone waves any form of gun in a public space there is only one outcome usually. I mean this is the UK after all not the States you may have a better chance to survive here, lol.
 

[boskee]

21 minutes ago, rocketdogbert said:

If your mate thingking armed police are going to check the UKARA database he’s a f****** idiot

 

They will shoot you, hopefully dead, just after they’ve screamed “armed police” and you haven’t put your toy down.

 

And nobody would blame them.

Yup. Unfortunately he's a "know it all" type, telling me he's learned about airsoft "for years". He thinks UKARA is a magic ticket that allows you to own RIFs. His idiotic take about the Armed Police and their access to the UKARA database was too much for me. 

Edited March 1, 2023 by boskee

[Tommikka]

3 minutes ago, boskee said:

Yup. Unfortunately he's a "know it all" type, telling me he's learned about airsoft "for years". He thinks UKARA is a licence, a magic ticket that allows you to own RIFs. His idiotic take about the Armed Police and their access to the UKARA database was too much for me. 

Ask him what the police would do if they had a report about a man waving a shotgun around.

Would they check if the address had a valid shotgun certificate and then not bother to turn up ?

[boskee]

6 minutes ago, Tommikka said:

Ask him what the police would do if they had a report about a man waving a shotgun around.

Would they check if the address had a valid shotgun certificate and then not bother to turn up ?

I did in a way. I asked him "What if an UKARA member had a real firearm. According to your logic they wouldn't bother responding because he was UKARA registered". He ignored my question. 

Edited March 1, 2023 by boskee

[ak2m4]

58 minutes ago, boskee said:

1. It is only accessible by retailers, UK Border Agency (when checking imports) and Hampshire Police (also when it concerns imports), as per UKARA websi

 

@Rogerborg didn't you do a FOI request a few years back to see if border force could you the number of requests made in a single year?  Did they ever respond?

[Tommikka]

You’re summing up is generally correct.

 

The VCRA requires a ‘defence’ for the manufacture, sale or import of a RIF - but the offence committed under a sale would be by the seller (whether business or private)

 

The UKARA is just a central register based on airsoft site ‘membership’ schemes, designed to protect retailers but has had processes for private sellers to request validation 

The border agency/customs and the police could call upon it 

 

‘Gifting’ is an interpretation of the law - the law covers manufacture, import and sale - so can be interpreted that handing over a RIF with no remuneration is not a sale.  I’m not aware of this being tested in law, but a barrister was commissioned to review legislation against paintball by the UKPSF and they were happy with the interpretation of the law for gifting 

(There are quite a few paintball guns that could be RIFs and there was a reliance for many years on the theory thus a paintball gun is a low power air weapon, which is a type of firearm under legislation and therefore a firearm would not be an IF nor a RIF - but that’s also not been tested in court)

 

 

I try to stick to my sponsors wise words regarding both what I wave around in public and for general life

As I have not yet been arrested or had my front door kicked in its worked much better than any databases (particularly as I’ve never been on a UKARA database)

16 minutes ago, boskee said:

". He ignored my question. 

Silence is golden 

 

 

On a different tack I am aware of a very well known member of the old school paintball customisation community who built many airsoft based paintball customs long before the VCRA & UKARA were a twinkle in a politicians eye.

He went through a dark period and decided to end it with suicide by cop and manufactured armed police response upon himself 

Had it not been for his ex also stepping in and reporting her concerns then it could have ended differently

 

They did not choose to ignore the matter and did provide a full armed response team handling the matter very professionally 

The risk was still the same that they were face to face with an armed man, not knowing for certain what could be real or not

[Tactical Pith Helmet]

I was waving a large Sabatier around once.

 

The plod ignored me as they knew I have a City and Guilds in catering and a food hygiene certificate (which the local Environmental Health Dept. had confirmed). 

 

 

 

[Shamal]

10 hours ago, boskee said:

 

You replied with no message? 

He used invisible ink. Hold it up to a flame.??

[Rogerborg]

21 hours ago, ak2m4 said:

 

@Rogerborg didn't you do a FOI request a few years back to see if border force could you the number of requests made in a single year?  Did they ever respond?

 

Yes. They said that they had no record of it, as each agent handles and records their own inquiries (or lack of enquiries).

 

 

21 hours ago, boskee said:

Unfortunately he's a "know it all" type, telling me he's learned about airsoft "for years".

 

We've all got a mate like that.  Heck, I might be that mate, although I do try to be careful to express things as opinions unless I can cite statute or case law, or firm examples.

 

In this case, he's talking about what could happen, not what will happen.  What I will say from day-job experience is that police may check their own systems for information on an address (or known suspect) after dispatching an emergency response.  They won't find a UKARA record, at least not the first time.  They may find a previous incident record if it's a repeat call to some who learned nothing the first time, and that information may get to the response unit, and they may tailor their response based on it.

 

 

22 hours ago, rocketdogbert said:

They will shoot you, hopefully dead, just after they’ve screamed “armed police” and you haven’t put your toy down.

 

In the past, they've shot a Scotchman with a table leg in a carrier bag.  Better safe than sorry.

 

Recently though, they've shown a lot of restraint.  We've got multiple examples of that in the News section, from kids with two-tones in their own homes, student film-makers on the street, to folk actively trying for suicide-by-cop by gearing up and pointing an "AR" at them.  That one got beanbagged in the balls.

[EDcase]

18 hours ago, boskee said:

Hi guys,

 

My mate seems to think police across the UK have an access to the UKARA database, which they check before sending Armed Police to an address at which someone saw you "through a window" (his words) holding an RIF.

 

My understanding of the law is as follows:

 

1.  
2. It is only accessible by retailers, UK Border Agency (when checking imports) and Hampshire Police (also when it concerns imports), as per UKARA website

 

Am I correct here? 

 

You are correct except for a small point in (2)  Anyone can check if a given name and address has an associated valid UKARA

 

But of course the Police will not check that before responding to a reported weapon sighting.  

 

 

Edited March 2, 2023 by EDcase

[BigAl]

Simple solution, stop talking to pillock and findbetter friend. 

[Cannonfodder]

Yes you're correct and your mate is a fucking idiot. If it wasn't for the potential reprecussions for the hobby I'd suggest letting him fuck about and find out.

[boskee]

19 minutes ago, BigAl said:

Simple solution, stop talking to pillock and findbetter friend. 

Eh, he's a good friend, but he's stubborn, especially whenever someone questions his knowledge of the things he's been interested in for years. I know next to nothing about technical parameters of RIFs etc, while he seems to have a good grasp on all that. I'm not going to ditch a mate over his poor understanding of the British laws. It's not like he slept with my wife  

 

36 minutes ago, EDcase said:

You are correct except for a small point in (2)  Anyone can check if a given name or address has an associated valid UKARA

That doesn't sound right, especially given GDPR and what's posted on UKARA's website. Surely you need a valid reason to access their database.

[Cannonfodder]

The trouble is that, while we know he's talking bollocks, others may not and his ridiculous advice may cause someone to have a very bad day

[EDcase]

5 minutes ago, boskee said:

That doesn't sound right, especially given GDPR and what's posted on UKARA's website. Surely you need a valid reason to access their database.

If you are selling a RIF and want to check the buyer has a valid UKARA you can call to check.  They won't give any personal info but if you give a name and  address or UKARA number they will tell you if its valid.

[Cannonfodder]

3 minutes ago, EDcase said:

If you are selling a RIF and want to check the buyer has a valid UKARA you can call to check.  They won't give any personal info but if you give a name and  address or UKARA number they will tell you if its valid.

Exactly. They're not giving out any information that you don't already have, just confirming it's correct

[ak2m4]

3 hours ago, EDcase said:

If you are selling a RIF and want to check the buyer has a valid UKARA you can call to check.  They won't give any personal info but if you give a name and  address or UKARA number they will tell you if its valid.

@EDcase who do call exactly?   I tried calling one of the major retailers years ago for a 2nd hand sale after I couldn't contact the site owner where the guy played but was told "no". 

[EDcase]

I use FireSupport

[John_W]

19 hours ago, Tactical Pith Helmet said:

I was waving a large Sabatier around once.

 

The plod ignored me as they knew I have a City and Guilds in catering and a food hygiene certificate (which the local Environmental Health Dept. had confirmed). 

 

 

 

Sadly my qualifications as a gynaecologist didn't stop me getting a suspended sentence...

[boskee]

Cheers guys. One more question - unless I am mistaken, it's actually easier to obtain an air rifle (which may even look like a proper machine gun) without any licence, and airsoft RIFs are harder to get than something that can cause much more harm. There doesn't seem to be (because it isn't needed) any UKARA type of organisation for air rifles. The only limitation is its firing power, and the legal "free for all" models easily exceeding airsoft RIFs in joules. Is that so, and if true there's something wrong with the law. 

Edited March 2, 2023 by boskee