Some questions about UKARA and RIFs

[SBoardley]

52 minutes ago, boskee said:

Cheers guys. One more question - unless I am mistaken, it's actually easier to obtain an air rifle (which may even look like a proper machine gun) without any licence, and airsoft RIFs are harder to get than something that can cause much more harm. There doesn't seem to be (because it isn't needed) any UKARA type of organisation for air rifles. The only limitation is its firing power, and the legal "free for all" models easily exceeding airsoft RIFs in joules. Is that so, and if true there's something wrong with the law. 

Just because an 18 plus can buy an air rifle, it doesn’t mean he can run around in the street shooting shit without the same outcome as the rif scenario. Ukara is an attempt to pull rifs into line with existing firearm legislation, not the other way around bud. 

[EDcase]

Yup 🤪

 

The law really stupid in relation to air-rifles (and pistols) vs airsoft

[boskee]

12 minutes ago, SBoardley said:

Just because an 18 plus can buy an air rifle, it doesn’t mean he can run around in the street shooting shit without the same outcome as the rif scenario.

Erm, yes? I never claimed you can "run around in the street shooting shit without the same outcome as the rif scenario"

 

  

13 minutes ago, SBoardley said:

Ukara is an attempt to pull rifs into line with existing firearm legislation, not the other way around bud. 

Again, I never claimed otherwise, but thanks for your input. 

Edited March 2, 2023 by boskee

[Tommikka]

5 hours ago, boskee said:

 

 

That doesn't sound right, especially given GDPR and what's posted on UKARA's website. Surely you need a valid reason to access their database.

The purpose of the UKARA database holding personal information is to validate RIF sales

 

A prospective buyer could make a complaint under GDPR if it is not used to do so

 

Validation does not require the data to be shared ……

 

Fred Bloggs gives his address 999 Letsbee Avenue and a UKARA number to John Smith

John Smith enquires with the UKARA or a site 

If the enquiry is denied Fred Bloggs raises a complaint about inappropriate holding of their personal data when it does not get used for its stated purpose 

 

1 hour ago, boskee said:

Cheers guys. One more question - unless I am mistaken, it's actually easier to obtain an air rifle (which may even look like a proper machine gun) without any licence, and airsoft RIFs are harder to get than something that can cause much more harm. There doesn't seem to be (because it isn't needed) any UKARA type of organisation for air rifles. The only limitation is its firing power, and the legal "free for all" models easily exceeding airsoft RIFs in joules. Is that so, and if true there's something wrong with the law. 

You’re going to get me and @Rogerborg agreeing to disagree again

 

Historically I would say that an air weapon is a firearm under Firearms legislation, therefore an air weapon cannot be an IF even if brightly coloured nor a RIF even if identical to a full on section 5 or illegal firearm

 

and Rogerborg would differ on the basis of an air weapon that is clearly a classic air weapon vs identical to full on firearms 

 

But there has been a case (last year?) … he put it up on the forum

The precident has happened

[Rogerborg]

1 hour ago, boskee said:

Cheers guys. One more question - unless I am mistaken, it's actually easier to obtain an air rifle (which may even look like a proper machine gun) without any licence, and airsoft RIFs are harder to get than something that can cause much more harm. There doesn't seem to be (because it isn't needed) any UKARA type of organisation for air rifles. The only limitation is its firing power, and the legal "free for all" models easily exceeding airsoft RIFs in joules. Is that so, and if true there's something wrong with the law. 

 

Oh, we've had some great rants and handbag spats about that, and particularly whether something can be both a Firearms Act 1968 firearm (airgun are a sub-category of firearm) and an imitation firearm (FA 1968 definition) or realistic imitation firearm (VCRA 2006 definition) at the same time.  It's all as clear as mud, but essentially you're correct: it's easier to walk out of a shop with something shooting metal at multiple Joules than plastic at 1.1J, despite them looking identical to anyone but a hands-on observer.

 

Airgun, airsoft, and bang-gun.

 

 

 

57 minutes ago, boskee said:

Again, I never claimed otherwise, but thanks for your input. 

 

Aaaand welcome to the handbagging.

[SBoardley]

54 minutes ago, Rogerborg said:

 

 

Aaaand welcome to the handbagging.

@boskee tbh I think your just another annoying know it all, who is asking dumb questions that you already know the answers to, and posting for the sake of it. 
 

[Cannonfodder]

There are other laws regarding the sale of airguns. IIRC all sales must be face to face at a registered firearms dealer (you can still buy via mail order but the gun must be sent to a RFD for you to collect). Also you need to provide your name and address to be recorded as the buyer

Edited March 2, 2023 by Cannonfodder

[Guest]

8 hours ago, boskee said:

Cheers guys. One more question - unless I am mistaken, it's actually easier to obtain an air rifle (which may even look like a proper machine gun) without any licence, and airsoft RIFs are harder to get than something that can cause much more harm. There doesn't seem to be (because it isn't needed) any UKARA type of organisation for air rifles. The only limitation is its firing power, and the legal "free for all" models easily exceeding airsoft RIFs in joules. Is that so, and if true there's something wrong with the law. 

More or less correct.

You need to be over 18, not in Scotland, and don’t tell the Registered Firearms Dealer you’re buying from if you want to do something stupid with it.

 

The key difference between an airsoft replica and an air rifle is the first looks like a firearm, the second IS a firearm

[John_W]

7 hours ago, Cannonfodder said:

There are other laws regarding the sale of airguns. IIRC all sales must be face to face at a registered firearms dealer (you can still buy via mail order but the gun must be sent to a RFD for you to collect). Also you need to provide your name and address to be recorded as the buyer

Some will deliver to your home address, but they do it in person not courier, and check your ID on delivery, and they charge for it.

Edited March 3, 2023 by John_W
Spelling

[Rogerborg]

4 hours ago, rocketdogbert said:

The key difference between an airsoft replica and an air rifle is the first looks like a firearm, the second IS a firearm

 

The other key difference is that it's quicker and easier to buy the firearm than the non-firearm.

 

 

10 hours ago, SBoardley said:

tbh I think your just another annoying know it all, who is asking dumb questions that you already know the answers to, and posting for the sake of it. 

 

Welcome to the internet, how are you enjoying your stay?

[boskee]

10 hours ago, SBoardley said:

@boskee tbh I think your just another annoying know it all, who is asking dumb questions that you already know the answers to, and posting for the sake of it. 
 

I don't think legal questions are dumb, especially given potential consequences if you get it wrong. It's worth getting second opinion from more experienced people. I'm not a lawyer.

 

10 hours ago, Cannonfodder said:

There are other laws regarding the sale of airguns. IIRC all sales must be face to face at a registered firearms dealer (you can still buy via mail order but the gun must be sent to a RFD for you to collect). Also you need to provide your name and address to be recorded as the buyer

Ah, so unlike with airsoft there is a central (government-run) database of air rifle owners? 

Edited March 3, 2023 by boskee

[Cannonfodder]

4 hours ago, boskee said:

Ah, so unlike with airsoft there is a central (government-run) database of air rifle owners? 

Yes. Also you have to be 18+ to be able to buy pellets. There are other laws regarding the sale and use of airguns which aren't relevant to this discussion so I won't go into them. 

[Lozart]

22 hours ago, boskee said:

I know next to nothing about technical parameters of RIFs etc, while he seems to have a good grasp on all that.

 

Operative word here is "seems".

[Rogerborg]

5 hours ago, boskee said:

Ah, so unlike with airsoft there is a central (government-run) database of air rifle owners?

 

I know retailers have to record sales, but are they habitually collated by Central Services?

 

Genuine question, I have no idea how it works.

[ak2m4]

19 minutes ago, Rogerborg said:

 

I know retailers have to record sales, but are they habitually collated by Central Services?

 

Genuine question, I have no idea how it works.

 

For a short time I worked on the Kent Police instance of the national firearms management system, nothing in there about Air-gun ownership.  Certainly nothing at county level.

[Tommikka]

3 hours ago, Rogerborg said:

 

I know retailers have to record sales, but are they habitually collated by Central Services?

 

Genuine question, I have no idea how it works.

 

3 hours ago, ak2m4 said:

 

For a short time I worked on the Kent Police instance of the national firearms management system, nothing in there about Air-gun ownership.  Certainly nothing at county level.

For Scotland they do have an air weapon certificate now, so you can’t just buy an air weapon.

However if you have a shotgun or firearms certificate you don’t require an air weapon certificate 

Therefore they will have registers of shotguns, firearms and air weapons 

But they won’t have a record that farmer Fred also has an airweapon as he will be legal without telling anyone about the air weapon 

If he retires, sells his shotgun and his shotgun certificate expires then he would need a new air weapon certificate

 

 

 

Down here in England the local Bobby is aware of my paintball armoury and has checked some out - for general knowledge, curiosity and in case I’m burgled resulting in an SLR, AK47s etc hit the streets

 

But other than that the police have no idea what I have stashed away

 

 

 

I have an air pistol revolver from Pellpax which was delivered by them personally, checked my driving licence and told me to enjoy.

They will retain the sale in their records, but unless they get looked into no one will know

It’s no longer an air pistol though, as I bought it for a 3D printed barrel conversion - then funnily later I discovered an old school paintball revolver for sale which the previous owner had been using with an airgun barrel conversion 

 

Bearing in mind that shooting people with airguns is a little bit illegal, do I have an illegal under powered large calibre air pistol?

I use frangible balls and some shaped rounds (which have been formally tested and approved as frangible) so hopefully I’m good to go 

[Tactical Pith Helmet]

There are post-conviction laws regarding airguns too.   If you've a criminal record, possession can be a serious offence.   

[Rogerborg]

5 hours ago, Tommikka said:

For Scotland they do have an air weapon certificate now, so you can’t just buy an air weapon.

However if you have a shotgun or firearms certificate you don’t require an air weapon certificate 

 

Not quite. You still have to apply for an airgun loicence, but it's effectively an automatic add-on and only costs £5, instead of £72 for 5 years.

 

It's shockingly close to being sensible.