Heavier BB vs Higher FPS

[Jiimmothy]

Hi I currently have a stock TM 416 

 

I have been thinking about upgrading the spring and other internals to cope with the spring upgrade, I have noticed that if I was to upgrade from my current 280FPS to a 340FPS spring it would push me over the joule limit if I was to to keep with my same .3g BBs this would mean going down to .2g BBs to keep within the limit of 1.1 joules 

 

my questions is, is it worth it to upgrade or should I just keep it as it is with the heavier BB 

 

Thanks in advance 

[MAX DICKER]

Wait, so currently your gun is chroning 280fps with .3g BB's? That's how your post seems to read... though a stock TM would never have that power.

Edited January 2, 2022 by MAX DICKER

[TheFull9]

My stock TM recoils all chrono about 270 with 0.2s with the hop on, afaik that's the standard.  0.3 at 280 is already right on the bleeding edge of the legal limit - 1.09J.

 

1.07J will be 340 with a 0.2g so basically the same power and still only just within the legal limit.

[Jiimmothy]

Sorry guys, that does read really wrong, it chronos currently around 280FPS with 0.2g which from my understanding is pretty stock in terms of TM’s, any thoughts on if upgrading the spring, will warrant more range over using heavier BBs? 

[Impulse]

4 minutes ago, Jiimmothy said:

Sorry guys, that does read really wrong, it chronos currently around 280FPS with 0.2g which from my understanding is pretty stock in terms of TM’s, any thoughts on if upgrading the spring, will warrant more range over using heavier BBs? 

 

I have a TM416D and I've left the power totally stock. The difference in effective range between 0.7J (which is stock TM guns) and 1.1J is miniscule and TMs are generally built super nicely. You generally don't have to touch TMs, they fire brilliantly out of the box.

 

I run mine at the stock 0.7J power and put .28s in it. Shoots wonderfully.

Edited January 2, 2022 by Impulse

[MAX DICKER]

Yeah, whilst I'll admit that it's possible to do really nice "upgrading" to a TM, frankly I'm of a mind that if it's not broke, don't fix it. And in my experience, TM is the most unbroke out of the box brand you can get.

[Jiimmothy]

Understood, sorry for the earlier confusion, thanks for all you advise 

[Rogerborg]

Well, here's one that I memed earlier.

 

 

I've never owned a TM, so this is a mix of Reddit-level anecdote, generalised observation, and cold, cruel physics.

 

1) [People say] TMs don't take well to being powered up, and are generally believed by their owners to be the best out of the box guns.

 

2) [People find] The heaviest BB that you can hop and afford is generally the best choice.  It'll pick up more energy and go further than a lighter one.

 

3) [I opine] Thinking and talking in terms of fps is a 1990s habit that's we should leave there, because (as we've just demonstrated) it requires qualifying with BB weight, then we have to convert to Joules anyway.  Always chrono with the BBs that you actually want to use, and you might as well look at the Joules figure.  I can tell you that my DMR shoots 0.32g at 1.8J, but I have no idea what fps that is, or what it would shoot 0.2g at.  Those numbers simply aren't relevant.

 

4) [Newton says] Inside the range that your gun can shoot at, it's all about consistency which is where TMs are purported to excel.  However, your maximum range is determined by muzzle energy.  TMs don't actually conform to a different set of physical laws, and a 1.13J CYMA which can hop 0.3g will shoot further than yours.  That doesn't mean that it will get hits, just that it could. 

[Guest DrAlexanderTobacco]

15 hours ago, Jiimmothy said:

Hi I currently have a stock TM 416 

 

I have been thinking about upgrading the spring and other internals to cope with the spring upgrade, I have noticed that if I was to upgrade from my current 280FPS to a 340FPS spring it would push me over the joule limit if I was to to keep with my same .3g BBs this would mean going down to .2g BBs to keep within the limit of 1.1 joules 

 

my questions is, is it worth it to upgrade or should I just keep it as it is with the heavier BB 

 

Thanks in advance 

Why don't you just swap to a spring that'll keep you at 1.1J with .3?

[Rogerborg]

2 hours ago, DrAlexanderTobacco said:

Why don't you just swap to a spring that'll keep you at 1.1J with .3?

 

Because TMs are designed to run at under 1J for the Japanese market, so then you get into a cycle of replacing all the TM bits until eventually you end up listing your £1200 worth of random parts in the classifieds for £800 as "shoots like a laser, in theory, just can't get it to work, probably an easy fix though".

 

All apocryphally, it's not something that I want to spend £500+ to investigate.

 

Since I'm in a meme-mood...

 

[Guest DrAlexanderTobacco]

8 minutes ago, Rogerborg said:

 

Because TMs are designed to run at under 1J for the Japanese market, so then you get into a cycle of replacing all the TM bits until eventually you end up listing your £1200 worth of random parts in the classifieds for £800 as "shoots like a laser, in theory, just can't get it to work, probably an easy fix though".

You're right to say that it's not a simple job of just swapping the spring, but it's far from a certainty you'll ruin the gun in the process. Plenty of decently upgraded TMs out there, with no issues.

 

My point for the last post - there's a gulf between 280 and 340. Different springs, with different power, exist.

[MAX DICKER]

3 minutes ago, DrAlexanderTobacco said:

Plenty of decently upgraded TMs out there, with no issues.

Absolutely true, and they are a wonder to behold. But in my experience, that's the exception not the norm. I'm more than happy for people to bodge their TM's with upgrades as it means I'm less likely to get shot as I bimble around at a skirmish.

[SBoardley]

17 hours ago, Jiimmothy said:

Sorry guys, that does read really wrong, it chronos currently around 280FPS with 0.2g which from my understanding is pretty stock in terms of TM’s, any thoughts on if upgrading the spring, will warrant more range over using heavier BBs? 

I would try a tighter barrel. This takes five minutes to chop out, and will increase your fps albeit nominally. Problem with tm (from my own experience), you change the spring, you then have to change the piston, you then have to change gears, then you have to keep an eye on bushings ANd wear on the shell itself… not to mention having to add a mosfet to protect that trigger from wear from spamming semi….

try a tight barrel and keep the oem hop up. 

[Guest DrAlexanderTobacco]

18 minutes ago, MAX DICKER said:

 But in my experience, that's the exception not the norm.

Yeah, you could be right there for sure.

 

 

[Druid799]

 

On 03/01/2022 at 14:31, MAX DICKER said:

Absolutely true, and they are a wonder to behold. But in my experience, that's the exception not the norm. I'm more than happy for people to bodge their TM's with upgrades as it means I'm less likely to get shot as I bimble around at a skirmish.

 

 

On 03/01/2022 at 14:51, DrAlexanderTobacco said:

Yeah, you could be right there for sure.

 

 

I’m also in the “don’t fuckle with the chuckle’ camp when it comes to TM recoils , as the Borg said TM’s are made for the Japanese market and they’ve been designed to run to the max of performance For their FPS rules so once you do start trying to change anything ‘propulsion’ related you throw the whole thing out of balance so you change the stock spring for a stronger one , then you find you need to change the gear set , then you find you need to now change the piston , and THEN you need to change XYZ as well and it goes on and on until you end up with a TM recoil that’s one in name only ? 

[Emergencychimps]

For my recoils I have changed the spring, to an M95 which isn't a massive increase, but if you do that and change the barrel for a tightbore and one that is slightly longer you should have a decent fps. Mine are around 335-340 pretty consistently. This way you aren't just wacking in a bigger spring, realistically more powerful springs will break tm recoils quicker than other modern brands (as described above, they are built for power so the gears and piston aren't as strong) but they have been running pretty well for over 5 years each and a lot of use on stock gears and pistons without any major malfunctions. 

 

The FPS mentioned is at 0.2, it's obviously lower as I run 0.3s through it normally. 

 

I don't think TM recoils are great if you want a reasonably high ROF either and I think regularly people use 11.1's (even with mosfets) and then get annoyed when their upgraded recoil can't cope with it. 

 

Doesn't really sound like I am endorsing recoils, I am, they're great, but they aren't some super dupe easy to upgrade by slapping in a higher power spring or massive battery, they're more refined and if treated like it will deliver some fantastic results for quite a while. 

[Spitfire_SVK]

I can now add to this topic with my experience with TM gun - I have also posted here regards to upgrades of that gun. 

 

I have TM AK-102 EBB that I was not perfectly happy with - especially the range on it (quite possibly because as I later found out the bucking was torn). After discussing the upgrades with people here and friends outside of this forum I have decided to replace only the barrel with tight bore and fitted prometheus purple bucking and nub. It's almost like completely different gun now - the range is just fantastic on it and as I also using it with .25s the speed of the bb is decent. 

[SBoardley]

You’ve also got to take into consideration, the disassembly and reassembling when upgrading and tweaking ngrs. I’ve stripped out two lowers and two buffer/ receiver extensions. These things are toffee metal. Like I said above, internally keep stock, just change the inner barrel. 

[Skara]

Just don't go for a super tight bore, it's all marketing bollocks and 6.05s will yield much better results than 6.01s..

Oh, and if you really want to sling 0.3s, get a new hop rubber.

[SBoardley]

1 hour ago, Skara said:

Just don't go for a super tight bore, it's all marketing bollocks and 6.05s will yield much better results than 6.01s..

Oh, and if you really want to sling 0.3s, get a new hop rubber.

The tight bore is suggested for fps increase. Accuracy is anecdotal, as by weight and brand, bbs will affect results.