Another RIF incident in the news... Its only a matter of time now

[MadMole]

4 hours ago, Rogerborg said:

 

This again.

 

"I've recovered and handled numerous firearms during my police career, and there was nothing in the appearance of the gun that gave me any impression it was anything other than genuine."

 

Sounds like a realistic imitation of a real firearm to me.

 

An Airgun IS a real firearm in law, not a realistic imitation of one. Fortunately the public don't make the laws, and the law distinguishes between IF's, RIF's, gas powered firearms (CO2 or air) and real steel firearms. Its ridiculous that airguns have so little regulation when they are 4-6 times more powerful than airsoft RIF's/IF's. I suspect there are hundreds of airguns out there for every RIF and these are the ones that will be on the receiving end of any new legislation I hope 

[Tactical Pith Helmet]

 

[Adolf Hamster]

20 hours ago, MadMole said:

it wasnt a rif, it was a firearm (airgun). Important difference

 

Sadly in the court of public opinion a gun-shaped-object is a gun-shaped-object.

[Rogerborg]

12 hours ago, MadMole said:

An Airgun IS a real firearm in law, not a realistic imitation of one.

 

Why can't it be both?

 

Which of these (if any) are legally lethal barrelled firearms, which of them (if any) are actually lethal barrelled firearms, which of them (if any) are not firearms, and which of them (if any) are realistic imitation firearms?

 

BANG, too late, you've already been killed.

 

 

 

 

12 hours ago, MadMole said:

the law distinguishes between IF's, RIF's, gas powered firearms (CO2 or air) and real steel firearms.

 

I've yet to see a persuasive argument or case law on why definitions from multiple separate, unrelated Acts are exclusionary. Note that the definitions added in Policing and Crime Act 2007 for airsoft guns not being firearms apply specifically and only to the Firearms Act 1968, not the Violent Crime Reduction Act 2006.  VCRA 2006 S38 says that a deactivated firearm is not a realistic imitation firearm, but does not otherwise define "firearm", even by reference to the Firearms Act 1968  - and BANG, you're dead again.

 

 

12 hours ago, MadMole said:

 

Its ridiculous that airguns have so little regulation when they are 4-6 times more powerful than airsoft RIF's/IF's. I suspect there are hundreds of airguns out there for every RIF and these are the ones that will be on the receiving end of any new legislation I hope 

 

1000% agree, our entire body of firearms legislation is a Frankenstein's monster of cobbled together, ill-fitting parts that makes no sense and isn't fit for purpose.

 

However, I fear that any comprehensive consolidation and re-write would be along the lines of "Nothing for nobody. Cope, peasants."

 

 

 

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, Rogerborg said:

 

However, I fear that any comprehensive consolidation and re-write would be along the lines of "Nothing for nobody. Cope, peasants."

Exactly this

[Adolf Hamster]

2 minutes ago, rocketdogbert said:

Exactly this

 

^what he said

 

No fun allowed.....

[Shamal]

On 19/09/2021 at 22:34, MadMole said:

 I suspect there are hundreds of airguns out there for every RIF and these are the ones that will be on the receiving end of any new legislation I hope 

I have airguns. Why would you want me legislated?  Why should I be made to jump through hoops in order to be allowed to keep them?

[Adolf Hamster]

37 minutes ago, Shamal said:

 Why would you want me legislated?  

 

Do you want the honest or political answer to that question?

 

 

[EDcase]

31 minutes ago, Shamal said:

I have airguns. Why would you want me legislated?  Why should I be made to jump through hoops in order to be allowed to keep them?

I used to have air rifles too, BSA Meteor and Jackal Hi-Power. (No hunting)

I'm not advocating for any change in legislation but I do find it strange that there are very few requirements (just age) for purchasing an air rifle as opposed to an airsoft rifle even though the air rifle is FAR more dangerous.

[Shamal]

11 minutes ago, Adolf Hamster said:

 

Do you want the honest or political answer to that question?

 

 

I think I know the political/government answer and that would be hand them all in and that you have no valid reason to have them. 

 

After the dunblane tragedy when all legal owners had to hand in their kit for destruction there was a sarcasm coined saying 'So now only criminals are allowed guns'

 

Subsequent analysis over the years since have shown that reduction in gun crime did not lower by taking legally owned guns from their owners.

 

What's the honest answer 🤔

 

Regards 

[Rogerborg]

2 hours ago, Shamal said:

I have airguns. Why would you want me legislated? 

[Oneshotscott]

Woh, didn't expect this thread to go on for so long and we've not even got onto rubber knives yet......🤣

[EDcase]

On 20/09/2021 at 09:22, Rogerborg said:

...However, I fear that any comprehensive consolidation and re-write would be along the lines of "Nothing for nobody. Cope, peasants."

And of course the criminals won't be affected and still get their real ones smuggled into the country. 

 

 

7 minutes ago, Oneshotscott said:

Woh, didn't expect this thread to go on for so long and we've not even got onto rubber knives yet......🤣

 Unfortunately its an ongoing issue...

Yeah they're more of an issue in the UK but knives are easier to deal with by police once confronted.

[Tactical Pith Helmet]

Electric blankets kill more people than firearms in the UK.   A greater number of people still are killed by sexual contact with other peoples genitals.  

 

Licensing things on the basis of aggregate fatalities would see the owners of asbestos ceilinged buildings facing more stringent regimes than firearms owners.   

 

The 'it's more dangerous' argument can lead you anywhere the cherry picked stats can display fallacious justification for.  

[Adolf Hamster]

11 hours ago, Shamal said:

What's the honest answer 

 

That you took that post more seriously than intended

 

I was going to make a joke about regulating you specifically, for being crazy.....

[Shamal]

5 hours ago, Adolf Hamster said:

 

That you took that post more seriously than intended

 

I was going to make a joke about regulating you specifically, for being crazy.....

Haha I've already got the certificate for lunacy. But the tabs are working now...🤪

 

[John_W]

13 hours ago, Tactical Pith Helmet said:

Electric blankets kill more people than firearms in the UK.   A greater number of people still are killed by sexual contact with other peoples genitals.  

 

Licensing things on the basis of aggregate fatalities would see the owners of asbestos ceilinged buildings facing more stringent regimes than firearms owners.   

 

The 'it's more dangerous' argument can lead you anywhere the cherry picked stats can display fallacious justification for.  

Take a look at death rates in America.

More people killed by Passive Smoking/second hand smoke than guns.

The VCRA came about because Hazel Blears and the ACPO didn't like replica guns, and having failed to deal with "real" gun crime wanted a headline grabbing piece of legislation that made them look tough.

And before the legislation, police forces were instructed to stop recording incidents where no weapon was fired or recovered as "unknown" and record them as "replica" instead...

[Voodoo.]

On 21/09/2021 at 20:52, Shamal said:

Subsequent analysis over the years since have shown that reduction in gun crime did not lower by taking legally owned guns from their owners.

Gun-related deaths did drastically lower, as did overall gun crime. Also, I was told the majority of people were slightly annoyed at handing in their firearms, but they agreed that school shootings should never happen again.

[Rogerborg]

Sadly, on the way back up again.

 

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/crimeandjustice/articles/offencesinvolvingtheuseoffirearms/yearendingmarch2019

 

 

Not primary due to "air weapons", but they include any report of an assault-toy related objects in there, and we're a very soft target to get that total down.

 

 

[Shamal]

5 hours ago, Voodoo. said:

Gun-related deaths did drastically lower, as did overall gun crime. Also, I was told the majority of people were slightly annoyed at handing in their firearms, but they agreed that school shootings should never happen again.

I disagree.

So are you saying that most gun crime was committed by gun club shooters or gun sport enthusiasts?

 

Yeah slightly annoyed is an understatement. Years spent collecting and legally using firearms only for them to be taken away from responsible legitimate owners.

I don't know of any gun club guns that have been used in school shootings.

Edited September 27, 2021 by Shamal
Addition

[Tommikka]

52 minutes ago, Shamal said:

I disagree.

So are you saying that most gun crime was committed by gun club shooters or gun sport enthusiasts?

 

Yeah slightly annoyed is an understatement. Years spent collecting and legally using firearms only for them to be taken away from responsible legitimate owners.

I don't know of any gun club guns that have been used in school shootings.

Well, the most obvious / significant / possibly only school shooting in the UK resulted in many measures including the banning of most handguns and further controls on getting a firearms certificate was conducted by the member of a gun club.

 

 

[colinjallen]

2 hours ago, Shamal said:

I disagree.

So are you saying that most gun crime was committed by gun club shooters or gun sport enthusiasts?

 

Yeah slightly annoyed is an understatement. Years spent collecting and legally using firearms only for them to be taken away from responsible legitimate owners.

I don't know of any gun club guns that have been used in school shootings.

Thomas Hamilton was a member of the Stirling Rifle and Pistol Club for nine years before he took his four legally owned pistols and killed sixteen 5 and 6 year old children and a teacher.

So yes, guns used at a gun club were used by a gun club shooter in a school shooting.  Before going off and shooting a bunch of little kids, Hamilton was probably what you would describe as a responsible legitimate owner.

Even by your very low standards, that post was cuntish.

[Tackle]

Easy guys, Shamal did say "most" gun crime, while Dunblane was horrific in the extreme (I remember it well, especially poignant as my niece's were 5 & 6 at the time), it was a fairly isolated incident in respect of legally owned gun crime, then & now most gun crime falls at the feet of criminals with illegally sourced weapons, until we get in to the realms of "Minority Report" , it's something that'll never be sorted, all we can do is do our best to promote the positive side of Airsoft & the generally responsible attitude of most players, not publicly fall out over our own perceptions of gun crime.

[Rogerborg]

The most recent incident that springs to mind was that incel mong going postal with a shotgun, I infer a 3-shot pump or semi-auto on a shotgun cert.

 

It's surprising that shotgun certificates are still "shall issue", and not much harder to get than a RIF, er, "licence".  Application, monies, secure storage, "not a mong" declaration (even if you are a mong), and you can collect as many as you like.

[colinjallen]

1 hour ago, Tackle said:

Easy guys, Shamal did say "most" gun crime, while Dunblane was horrific in the extreme (I remember it well, especially poignant as my niece's were 5 & 6 at the time), it was a fairly isolated incident in respect of legally owned gun crime, then & now most gun crime falls at the feet of criminals with illegally sourced weapons, until we get in to the realms of "Minority Report" , it's something that'll never be sorted, all we can do is do our best to promote the positive side of Airsoft & the generally responsible attitude of most players, not publicly fall out over our own perceptions of gun crime.

What Shamal said was "I don't know of any gun club guns that have been used in school shootings."

Hamilton carried out a school shooting with the pistols that he used at his gun club.

If Shamal wants to argue around that, he can try.