Startup

[sidjur]

Hello everybody,

 

I am a scientist specializing in localization. Right now I have a prototype and am thinking about starting a startup. But the most informative question is, would anyone want to buy it.

Would it help you to have a device on top of your gun to mark enemies and waypoints? Everyone on your team would get this information and at the same time you would know where all of your team members are.
This system works outdoors and indoors. The information is displayed on your smartphone, which could be on your forearm, for example.

Would you spend money on such a device? 

 

Regards

Edited March 15, 2021 by sidjur

[EDcase]

Interesting idea.

 

My first thought is I'd need some kind of protection for my phone.

I guess a sleeve pouch with hard plastic window but then touch would not work.

 

Followed by the golden question: Roughly how much would your system cost per unit?

Edited March 15, 2021 by EDcase

[Adolf Hamster]

is this a dedicated device, or a smartphone app with accompanying gun mount?

 

tbh i'm not sure gun-mounted it the best move, maybe an arm or admin pouch mounted system would be better.

 

 

it's also worth asking how is this meant to identify enemies? is it a case of everyone with these devices assigns a team and folks on the opposite team show up as red?

 

because i can't think of a reason why people would willingly expose themselves electronically when a big part of many people's playstyles is stealth. likewise if the objectives element requires sites to purchase equipment that's going to limit the market.

 

as a system for purely identifying friendlies, then a smartphone app that allows live gps positions of a user group i can see being useful, there are some products aimed at hunters and the like (presumably you can shout "hey there's deer over here" without actually shouting)

although such a system would only really be marketable to groups who play together in an organised fashion, which outside of the milsim market tends not to happen too much and the bulk of the skirmishing market isn't going to be that interested.

 

as an example, trying to sync radio's with random folks who happen to be in your team that weekend never normally works out, you either end up with a load of useless chatter or nobody bothers communicating at all.

[Shamal]

25 minutes ago, sidjur said:

Hello everybody,

 

I am a scientist specializing in localization. Right now I have a prototype and am thinking about starting a startup. But the most informative question is, would anyone want to buy it.

Would it help you to have a device on top of your gun to mark enemies and waypoints? Everyone on your team would get this information and at the same time you would know where all of your team members are.
This system works outdoors and indoors. The information is displayed on your smartphone, which could be on your forearm, for example.

Would you spend money on such a device? 

 

Regards

Hi. I'm sure I've seen this idea already🤔

[Adolf Hamster]

25 minutes ago, Shamal said:

Hi. I'm sure I've seen this idea already🤔

 

you have, wasn't it the fella who tried running a cqb site/contantly arguing with @ImTriggerHappy who's name i can't remember?

[Oneshotscott]

Please tell me that this device makes pinging noises when players/waypoints come are located....and il only buy it if I can duck tape it to my pulse rife and flame thrower.

[DRay]

I think in principle it is a great idea. Having a COD style ‘map’ available to you during the game would be amazing. The execution, as with all things is tricky. It is worth noting that actually militaries have tried to develop an integrated IFF into a HUD for years and to date none of the major arms manufacturers have managed it. I did a beta test for some Raytheon Anschluss AR tech about 3 years ago and it has still never made it to market. So if you do manage it the potential to license it and make a SERIOUS amount of money is probably bigger than the application for airsoft. 
 

My take on what it would need to do is;

 

Smart phone displayed (IOT keep the costs down), I don’t think you would get a mass market for a standalone device. 

 

Indicate blue

 

Indicate red (with the option to turn this off if the game required it)

 

Indicate objectives, although this would require sites to sign up, probably at a cost, which again limits your market to established players like Ground Zero, UCAP etc. 
 

Comms function, a way of connecting to a headset (fairly straightforward via bluetooth probably) and ‘log in’ to a team, with the potential to monitor your squad net i.e assault or recon, so that you don’t just get everyone’s chaff all the time. Also for MILSIM use the ability to monitor a second Charlie group or group line 1 etc for C2. 
 

The issues as I see it;

 

Connectivity, if it needs WiFi, no go because only small or indoor sites have coverage in my experience. Phone signal in outdoor sites is normally patchy as fuck too. 
 

iOS/android compatibility 

 

Militarised bluetooth headsets, I have never seen these as an option available commercially (although they do exist for the military) but if you can get a manufacturer onboard potentially a game changer if they are available for the same price as a set of headphones on Amazon. 
 

Getting sites to sign up and pay for the privilege... 

 

Drain on phone battery for GPS fed software, meaning by the time the day is over you can’t google maps your way home!

 

All of that said, to reiterate I think it’s a great idea. I have done quite a bit of human factors at work and testing of AR for military use, so if you would like some testers DM me and I’ll send you my details to stay in touch for when you get to that stage of R&D. 

 

 

[EDcase]

As I understand it, this is to show friendly team members, waypoints and orders etc.

I can't see any reason why you would have enemy shown.

Edited March 15, 2021 by EDcase

[DRay]

Depends on the game mode. Get a kill streak and activate some kind of target ID, or it can be used once per game by each team etc. 

[sidjur]

@EDcase

Plastic windows are not the problem as the mobile phone is only used to display information. The device mounted on the weapon has buttons. Something between 200-300 euros.

 

@Adolf Hamster

It's an app and a device.

The enemy is identified through vision. When you see an enemy, you can quickly set the distance (the angle is known to the device) and this information will be passed on to your team. You can also mount your phone on a drone for tracking the red forces. GPS is not precise enough and is not suitable for indoor use. This is also the reason why additional hardware is required.

 

@Shamal

If you have more information, that would be great.

 

@Airsoft123

no problem.

 

@DRay

in this regard I have already made progress because I already have a working prototype. Unfortunately it is very difficult to sell anything to the military (in my country). That's why I'm thinking about the civil market.

The connection between the mobile phone and the device is made via BLE (range limited to 2 m for security reasons).

The communication between the blue forces is encrypted and robust against spoofing and jamming.

Thank you for your offer, I will come back to it. For me it is important to estimate how great the demand could be.

 

@EDcase

the enemy needs to be selected by the blue forces.

[Cr0-Magnon]

Can we move this to the dreamers thread?

 

Generally you know where the opponents are (some of them even move!) but this system is never going to accurately mark which window of a building etc.

 

Besides even if it did, should it? We already live in an age where teenagers are scared to have real conversations because they mostly only know interacting through WhatsApp etc. We're running around the woods in real time, let's build confidence and comradery by shouting things like this. 

[sidjur]

@Cr0-Magnon

 

You're right, the opponents are moving, but after seeing one you can tag them and everyone on your team will know where the opponents are. The markings disappear after a few seconds. You can see the map from above. Indoor mapping is possible with an external camera or your mobile phone: Google for simultaneous localization and mapping (SLAM). In combination with a magnetometer, you know the direction of view of all your teammembers.
I don't want to spoil your joy in playing, that's not my intention. But would this system help you? Because you interact more with your team by sharing information? 

[Oneshotscott]

I can see the benefits but I also think it's expensive given that sharing information is currently done via radio which is cheap.

 

I think it would also take out the experience of the 'unknown' and 'hide and seek' in airsoft which gives the games some degree of uncertainty of timescales between contacts.  If we all knew where we all were and which way we were heading(incl enemy) I think it would make a very boring, fast game and an unfair game for those that don't has access to this new device.

 

I would try pushing it on dedicated milsim sites/forums and/or go direct to airsoft/law enforcement/security manufacturers.  It has a place in a market but I have my doubts for airsoft skirmishing/cqb.

[Tommikka]

3 hours ago, sidjur said:

Hello everybody,

 

I am a scientist specializing in localization. Right now I have a prototype and am thinking about starting a startup. But the most informative question is, would anyone want to buy it.

Would it help you to have a device on top of your gun to mark enemies and waypoints? Everyone on your team would get this information and at the same time you would know where all of your team members are.
This system works outdoors and indoors. The information is displayed on your smartphone, which could be on your forearm, for example.

Would you spend money on such a device? 

 

Regards

No, I wouldn’t spend money on such a device.

 

We’ve considered devices, apps and many technical ways. Big issues are cost of equipment, damage to smart phones, reliance on technology, and the ease of keeping things simple

 

 

I have already used a free smartphone app a number of years ago (and have managed to remember my password)

 

https://apps.apple.com/gb/app/paintball-commander/id550845375
 

This allows a game to be created, a number of teams to be created (and password protected)

Players then join the game, and sign into their team. You can then see team mates

Marshalls can also add themselves 

There is nothing for player status - you’re either tracked or not, but can switch on/off tracking or could quit/rejoin

 

If I recall correctly this allows players to see their own team, and also to see Marshalls - I don’t think there is a master view to see everyone

(Instead of using the Marshall/referee option a team could be made of Marshall’s)

It could be argued about the benefits of Marshals being visible to all (so you don’t shoot Marshall’s, or only seen by Marshall’s (so you don’t use Marshall’s positions to possibly imply the location of your enemy - or an objective that you’re meant to search for)

As an organiser while running the game I don’t want players to be able to track me, where we’re laying devices etc 

But alternatively I do want to track certain marshals - for example we have a pink hi-vis which we use to easily spot the gadget controller 

 

This app doesn’t flag up the opposition

 

A big disadvantage of map trackers is that people are watching screens etc and not playing the game.  If you had time you could gather information and plan, which you get in some real life situations (as the commanders overview). In a game you’re on ‘missions’ of half an hour etc, and even in an all day or all weekend continuous game you don’t want to be focusing on a long duration objective - that’s going to quickly become a boring game, if things are continuous then you need different objectives to be taking place - many little things contributing to bigger things

 

Good old radios and talking to people beat gadgets.

At a major national event the traditionally losing side won the game due to radio co-ordination fed back to the commanders wife who handed out maps of the current action as each player respawned.  
As a ‘sub commander’ I knew the alternative plan and wanted us to be losing overall as usual - the plan was for the commander to start playing the ride of the valkyries into a bull horn and to walk around the site gathering every player to just go out in one vast firefight 

 

These technical pipedreams are good stuff, but don’t do well in practice. They would suit a site, but then you have a very tiny market and need to put the price up for low sales.  Then the site won’t buy it

 

For example look around at prop bombs with timers, codes or just red/blue buttons. There are hundreds of self made and also commercial ones.  A good idea in principle, but rather than buy one in for a few hundred pounds (or more) the site can commission a teenage geek to watch YouTube and put a microcontroller into a box with flashing lights 

 

Go back about 15 years ago and props were random dummy inactive things, flags, chess timers.  Go to about 12/13 years ago and our tech man was making the devices that actually functioned and blew up, now everybody has them - including kids to enhance their nerf 

 

To make such a device and to get someone to buy it you need to have your unique idea and sell it to a site before someone else comes up with the idea or copies yours for a fraction of the cost 

[sidjur]

@Airsoft123 and @Tommikka

 

Thank you very much, this information helps me a lot. I think my question was answered well.

And of course many thanks to everyone who took the time to answer my question. Great Community

[ImTriggerHappy]

It's a cod map for airsoft and would never work. 

 

Every single player would need a some sort of recognition tag and I guarantee most wouldn't want it or be willing to pay for it.

 

A huge part of airsoft is being a sneaky bastard as it is all short range stuff and tracking ruins the game and is pretty pointless.

 

As for strapping your smart phone to your arm I can imagine the strops when peoples phones get shot out would be fun to watch.

[Sitting Duck]

Great - it's bad enough getting people to chrono their guns in time to play

 

Now we will have teenagers/players whinging they can't get a decent signal

so can't head out just yet - gimme a sec, nearly got 1 bar, whoa 4G too..

Oh shit, it's gone again...

hasn't this woodland site got free WiFi or can we not play with better coverage

 

 

meanwhile - SHIT we've been EMP'd or they got a counter UAV...

 

Nope the owner is jamming the mobile signals

coz he is getting fucked off with mobile muppets

piss balling about and holding up next game

 

nah - COD/Fortnite is one thing & peew peew is another

[Robert James]

8 hours ago, Adolf Hamster said:

 

you have, wasn't it the fella who tried running a cqb site/contantly arguing with @ImTriggerHappy who's name i can't remember?

Seth @Seth_Erebor.

[Adolf Hamster]

5 hours ago, Robert James said:

Seth @Seth_Erebor.

 

that's the fella

[Jedi_Master]

11 hours ago, sidjur said:

Plastic windows are not the problem as the mobile phone is only used to display information. The device mounted on the weapon has buttons. Something between 200-300 euros.

 

That would cost more than many players pay for their gun. The software app would need to have accurate mapping of each airsoft site with correct scaling, not just generic Google map mode.

[Lozart]

I could see the appeal of this to the Milsim market but not the general skirmish crowd. That said, ATAK already covers a lot of this kind of Blue Force Tracker functionality, so what makes yours different/better?

[GenuineGerman]

Great Idea, and as mentioned similar to Blue Force Tracker and Bowman. Realistically though when are you ever going to play a site big enough to use it.  

[Guest DrAlexanderTobacco]

15 hours ago, sidjur said:

Hello everybody,

 

I am a scientist specializing in localization. Right now I have a prototype and am thinking about starting a startup. But the most informative question is, would anyone want to buy it.

Would it help you to have a device on top of your gun to mark enemies and waypoints? Everyone on your team would get this information and at the same time you would know where all of your team members are.
This system works outdoors and indoors. The information is displayed on your smartphone, which could be on your forearm, for example.

Would you spend money on such a device? 

 

Regards

Do I have the rough function-flow correct, here?:

 

- Spot enemy

- Point device at enemy, and press button to "lase" the enemy

- Enemy's location is passed through to unit smartphones, which appends the enemy's location to a map

 

Some questions, if I'm accurate:

 

- If I lase an enemy three stories up in a building, does the map delineate this?

- Are you intending to use a laser in the system, for accurate distance?

- What does this solve?

[Adolf Hamster]

56 minutes ago, DrAlexanderTobacco said:

- What does this solve?

 

also worth asking, what does this do that a quick "dude third story 2nd window on the left" on the radio wouldn't do.