Bac British Airsoft Club an Alternative to UKARA

[Jaylordofwaargh]

Yesterday I discovered BAC, the British Airsoft Club, as their website states it is set up as an alternative to the UKARA scheme. When the question was asked on FB I was all 'wtf?' Turns out to be a form of defence that is building to be in the players favour. Have a look https://britishairsoftclub.com/ 

 

My first thoughts on this (and remains so after I scoured the site), is that this is a stellar idea. After all @Tackle has stated finding a site to go back to often enough to get back on to the UKARA database is hard. Not including going back however many times in the year to keep ones 'membership'. BAC are super clear that this is a wip, they are crystal on the VCRA in that they ask for the same time frame as the retailer based system. 

 

What are the thoughts here?

[PureSilver]

This doesn't seem radically different from UKARA in concept. The "BAC" now have to:

1. Partner with as many airsoft sites as possible, which means reaching out to them and getting hold of their public liability insurance certificates, and
2. Creating profiles for each site to access remotely, so they can affirm that a player was there at a specified date, and
3. Partner with as many airsoft retailers as possible, which means reaching out to them all and,
4. Creating profiles for each retailer to access remotely, so they can affirm a player's BAC details (number and address) are valid, and
5. Persuading airsofters to use the system.

They haven't exactly fallen at the first hurdle but they've not really got that many sites registered (as of yet), which defeats the point of being able to play at multiple sites. They have a reasonable number of retailers signed up, but that's not of much use if the players can't find a site to play at. Questions that will be asked:

1. Who are the "BAC"? UKARA is at least an industry-backed body; the BAC lists a staff of two. (Further, why can't the "web development team" set up a proper e-mail address at their actual domain? What's with all the errors in the copy on the website? Why is the last update in the news section from 2018?)
2. Where's the incentive for sites to give up the "guaranteed" business of forcing players to play three games at their site and/or their nifty sideline in selling players guns that they have to use three times at the site before they can keep them?
3. Can we use a BAC number to import a RIF?

99% of the time these "UKARA alternatives" have been cooked up by total chancers as a way to sell guns to people who wouldn't have a hope of qualifying under the UKARA scheme. This one doesn't look as bad as they usually do, but this has a lot more "good idea" than "actually ready" written all over it, especially with so few sites signed up.

 

This isn't a bad idea but a far better solution would be to put pressure on UKARA to update their system, IMO. UKARA is almost universally recognised and accepted, especially by Border Force. There is no compelling reason that UKARA can't create a Practiscore-style system where players can register their attendance at any number of events at any given venue.

[Tackle]

Looks like an excellent idea, so I checked the list of sites registered with bac in Kent.

One I swore I'd never play there again, two others have closed down ages back, leaving one more that I'm not sure of it's current status.

But a good idea in principle 👍

[AlphaBear]

Why do we need an alternative to UKARA? If they simply need to sort out GDRP issues and sites having to talk to each other then it’s a matter of keeping a national database. But hold on, is that what happens already or am I missing something here? 

[Guest DrAlexanderTobacco]

Puresilver's reply said it best - Ultimately the "system" as a whole is pretty awkward and there's no excuse for getting UKARA's system updated significantly imo

 

The key difference for BAC seems to be that they'll allow users to become registered after attending 3x games at *different* sites - which definitely appeals to me, I hated having to pick a certain site to pay my pound of flesh to.

[AlphaBear]

Yeah I get that point and I often wondered why that was the case coz it made no logical sense other than that site tying you into their site and hence a revenue stream for them.  

[Tackle]

1 hour ago, DrAlexanderTobacco said:

I hated having to pick a certain site to pay my pound of flesh to.

#MeToo , kept trying different sites, only to be disappointed, so I'd be fecked if I was gonna give them more of my hard earned just to prove I'm a bonafide airsofter.

The BAC thing is definitely a good alternative (on paper), but needs more sites to show their endorsement of it, I wonder how many sites aren't doing so merely because of their ties with retailers, as well as onsite shops.

UKARA is a borderline case for the monopolies commission ?, yes there are other defenses but they're not widely recognised & accepted.

[Adolf Hamster]

is it just me or does it read like they want you to have attended 3 different sites?

 

because whilst i'm pretty well known with at least 2 sites (one of which i dont play at any more) i'd have to actively go out and play a third.....

 

tbh this just seems like another ukaralike setup, tbh i'd rather see the actual ukara system getting used a bit more and being a bit better organised.

 

for a start ukara seems to be the only defence people unfamiliar with airsoft are going to stand a chance of being aware of (for example ups) so any other system is going to need that same recognition before it becomes remotely useful.

[Shamal]

3 hours ago, DrAlexanderTobacco said:

Puresilver's reply said it best - Ultimately the "system" as a whole is pretty awkward and there's no excuse for getting UKARA's system updated significantly imo

 

The key difference for BAC seems to be that they'll allow users to become registered after attending 3x games at *different* sites - which definitely appeals to me, I hated having to pick a certain site to pay my pound of flesh to.

I've got a different view on that.

I found it easier to pledge my allegiance to my 'local'club and played my 3games there. I also took out membership with them. Eventually I got to know the management and it works out very well.i would have had a lot of driving to play at 3different clubs.

Regards 

1 hour ago, Tackle said:

#MeToo , kept trying different sites, only to be disappointed

I guess I got lucky with my local club.

I started with no expectations, or idea, of what was good or bad but as it worked out it is a good club. I'm still free to play wherever.and it's not hard for me to do 3 games with them over the course of a year.

I dont think I would be in a rush to to join bac.

Regards 

[Tackle]

I had a great local firm, had access to load of sites (all within 40 mins of me), including mod sites, all went tits up when one of the owners defrauded the other, as well as the mod & other landowners.

Wanker could have made a fortune playing the long game, amazing opportunity, but got greedy & couldn't wait 🤬

[Shamal]

7 minutes ago, Tackle said:

I had a great local firm, had access to load of sites (all within 40 mins of me), including mod sites, all went tits up when one of the owners defrauded the other, as well as the mod & other landowners.

Wanker could have made a fortune playing the long game, amazing opportunity, but got greedy & couldn't wait 🤬

Yep. I want it all and I want it now...I think that's taken from a song.

Quiz time. That line is taken from a song by who?

10 sloppy kisses to the sender of first correct answer. Lol 🤭

( bet I get no replies) hehe

Regards 

[Adolf Hamster]

Queen

 

However i dont think i need sloppy kisses

[Shamal]

9 hours ago, Adolf Hamster said:

Queen

 

However i dont think i need sloppy kisses

No no you won fair an square.how do you want to collect? 🤪🤭

[Cannonfodder]

Are these jokers still going? There was always something which felt a bit off about these guys. IIRC they claimed to be independent, but were registered at the same address as a retailer and made claims about shops accepting their donations defence who didn't. The final nail in the coffin for many was when they were caught giving out membership without checking the application was from a genuine player

 

https://forums.zeroin.co.uk/forum/airsoft-related/general-airsoft-discussion/188943-british-airsoft-club-announcement#post1504498

[Nick G]

How about a system where you have a UKARA card, registered sites have a scanner where you swipe your card when you play. This automatically updates the UKARA system that you have played. Bit like these national gym chains have , then regardless of where you play it counts. I'd happily pay an anual sub to maintain my UKARA ,£25 or £30 a year  which could go to fund the scanners etc. My local site doesnt have a membership set up , doesnt charge to process or renew your UKARA .

[Steveocee]

UKARA just need to allow players to register themselves and then have some form of verification system. Maybe as a player the emphasis is on you to log the date you played here, there and there and then sites have to verify this. Problem then is incentivising the sites to do this as UKARA is a big lever to extort, sorry charge for membership.

 

UKARA just needs bringing up to date and an evolution of how they work.

[Tommikka]

2 hours ago, Nick G said:

How about a system where you have a UKARA card, registered sites have a scanner where you swipe your card when you play. This automatically updates the UKARA system that you have played. Bit like these national gym chains have , then regardless of where you play it counts. I'd happily pay an anual sub to maintain my UKARA ,£25 or £30 a year  which could go to fund the scanners etc. My local site doesnt have a membership set up , doesnt charge to process or renew your UKARA .

This is technical solution to an information problem, rather than looking into what the actual problem is.

......and is exactly what I am getting at work with a subject area - the problems are the levels of detail/completeness of information that is available, information held elsewhere that isn’t easily available, information that isn’t recorded.

Some people have locked into sales pitches of IoT gadgets, QR code’s etc to ‘gather stuff’ rather than identifying what information is needed, to do what, whether or not it is held anywhere, what quality it is .... and then identify the actions needed.

 

In airsoft there is an industry & government recognised scheme, plus other schemes

To be VCRA compliant a player just needs to intend to use their RIF responsibly at an insured site.

A seller is legally responsible for the transaction and needs to be happy with whatever information they receive

On importation the importer (addressee) is responsible customs hold them against information that they are willing to accept/recognise as reasonably valid.

 

(From what I understand) the main issue that comes up for UKARA is self checking and the ability to confirm someone’s details. These come down to data handling and levels of availability to the person checking.

On the face of it, that’s all fine - the purpose of personal information held on the UKARA database is collected to be shared with those checking it.  But it should not be available to anyone who wants to get information by generating a request 

Therefore they may be sat between issues of enabling access and not breaching use of personal information.

That can be provided by ‘technology’ in the sense of a website, email service etc, but ‘technology’ of card readers etc would mean opening up an API to interface with data and create holes to be exploited 

In the example of a site that doesn’t run their own membership scheme, there’s no need for them to have internet connectivity and devices to interface into someone else’s database

[Cannonfodder]

In an ideal world going back to pre vcra days where we could buy an airsoft gun in any colour would be nice. Mind you, so would a threesome with Scarlet Johansson and Keira Knightley and that's probably not going to happen either. 

 

No system is ever going to be perfect and many of the proposals put forward would cost a lot to set up and keep running. Something many site owners wouldn't find financially viable, and that's before you get into the issues of privacy and data handling

 

[Shamal]

7 hours ago, Nick G said:

How about a system where you have a UKARA card, registered sites have a scanner where you swipe your card when you play. This automatically updates the UKARA system that you have played. Bit like these national gym chains have , then regardless of where you play it counts. I'd happily pay an anual sub to maintain my UKARA ,£25 or £30 a year  which could go to fund the scanners etc. My local site doesnt have a membership set up , doesnt charge to process or renew your UKARA .

Sounds like a good plan. That would have benefited me on numerous occasions.👍

2 hours ago, Cannonfodder said:

In an ideal world going back to pre vcra days where we could buy an airsoft gun in any colour would be nice. Mind you, so would a threesome with Scarlet Johansson and Keira Knightley 

 

Ohh! can I have somebody different this time? They were crap last time.moan,moan moan!

😉

Regards 

[PureSilver]

On 10/11/2020 at 14:27, Tommikka said:

This is technical solution to an information problem, rather than looking into what the actual problem is.

 

I don't really agree with this assessment. The biggest problem, as you have correctly identified, is that players' information is not well recorded, very infrequently updated, and not properly accessible. A more advanced system which automated more of these tasks would be a huge boon to the airsoft community. I am envisioning a smartphone app and website. First how it works for UKARA:

1. UKARA creates a database which is capable of creating and storing (in a GDPR-compliant fashion, obviously) profiles for retailers, sites and players.
2. UKARA creates a web portal, with online forms, through which retailers, sites and players can fill out their information, upload supporting documentation, and view their own profile (and others', but only once the other has consented to the release only of the required information for each individual request).
3. UKARA dedicates staff to manage the database and review information supplied by retailers, sites and players on initial application, and a periodic basis thereafter.

Then how it works for sites:

1. The site registers with UKARA via an online form, and uploads its contact details and insurance information. This is manually inspected by UKARA staff. A site profile is created by said staff, and the details of the insurance and its expiry date logged against the site's entry in the UKARA backend. When the expiry date nears the site owner is independently notified by UKARA that its continued eligibility is contingent on supply of updated insurance documents. The site is responsible for updating UKARA as to any change in its circumstances, e.g. if it closes or opens a new location, which would be manually reviewed by UKARA staff. Each location has a unique entry in the UKARA backend.
2. The site installs an app on a "site" smartphone, tablet etc., and logs in to the site's profile within the app. This app uses NFC, or scans a QR code, or similar to communicate with a player's smartphone. This doesn't need to have live internet connectivity - the app can just upload data to the UKARA database the next time it is connected to the internet. The only time it would need immediate access to the database would be to check a player's eligibility for an in-person purchase of a RIF on-site.
3. This could also be of use to the site in other ways, e.g. establishing whether a player has already signed and completed the site's own insurance waivers etc. by logging that as an entry on the players' profile which is only viewable as a yes/no answer and only requestable by that site's app.
4. It also removes from the site the current burden of manually entering (and updating, etc.) players' details on UKARA's system.

Then how it works for the player:

1. The player registers a profile with UKARA. The usual details - profile picture, name, address, age etc. - are supplied via an online application. The player uploads their proofs of age, address etc., all of which are manually reviewed by UKARA staff. A player profile is created by said staff, and the player's details logged against this entry. The player is responsible for updating their profile as to any change in circumstances, e.g. a change in address, which will be manually reviewed by UKARA staff and require the same proofs as the original application.
2. The player installs an app on their smartphone, and logs in to their profile within the app.
3. When the player attends a game, the app displays their profile picture to the site staff to confirm the player is using their own profile, and uses NFC, or presents a QR code, or similar, so that the site can scan their profile using the site smartphone. This doesn't need much work to be GDPR compliant - the site app only needs to log the player's attendance, not access their personal details. The app then logs the player's attendance at a game on their profile in the UKARA backend.
4. The UKARA backend then adds the player's game to a rolling list of games played, and when a deadline of a year since the last game played approaches, the player is independently notified by UKARA that their continued eligibility is contingent on playing a game soon.
5. This has a significant benefit for players, who can now play at any registered site and have that logged as a game played on their profile. No more having to attend one site three times every twelve months, because your continued participation is logged every time you play at any site.

How it works for buying and selling:

1. Once a player has a profile, the UKARA backend can supply information on the player's eligibility. A retailer can register a profile on the UKARA backend using the usual online form, supplying the appropriate contact details and insurance information.
2. When a buyer wants to purchase a gun, the app can supply a yes/no answer as to their eligibility to purchase a RIF (or an IF, for that matter; they only need their profile to confirm they're over 18 for that and it can of course automatically update to eligible after a suitable number of games within a suitable period) to the seller.
3. When a request is made by a seller - whether that's a retailer or another player - to confirm the buyer's eligibility, the buyer is asked whether they consent to the distribution of their details to the seller. For an in-person purchase the app might display the player's name, profile picture and eligibility status so the seller can confirm the buyer's identify and eligibility. For a delivery purchase the app might display the player's name, address and eligibility status, so the seller can confirm the buyer's eligibility, and that they're delivering to an address which matches the buyer's profile.
4. If a sale is made, the seller could log a unique ID (e.g. one assigned to the request they used to confirm the buyer's details) against the details of the sale (in their POS software, or in a record book or something) so they could confirm in the future that they checked the buyer's eligibility before they sold to the buyer, which is the literal form of a s.38 defence.
5. This includes importation. Border Force can request a player's information (name, address, eligibility status) when they detain an imported gun, to confirm those details match a registered player's profile. This would vastly speed up situations where a player's status is unclear and Border Force detains the gun until they're sure everything is in order.

On 10/11/2020 at 14:27, Tommikka said:

That can be provided by ‘technology’ in the sense of a website, email service etc, but ‘technology’ of card readers etc would mean opening up an API to interface with data and create holes to be exploited 

 

I mean... Isn't the whole point of an API to access data? At this point you're more picking holes in the technological implementation than the fundamental idea, which seems to me to be perfectly sound.

[Tommikka]

5 hours ago, PureSilver said:

 

I don't really agree with this assessment. The biggest problem, as you have correctly identified, is that players' information is not well recorded, very infrequently updated, and not properly accessible. A more advanced system which automated more of these tasks would be a huge boon to the airsoft community. I am envisioning a smartphone app and website. First how it works for UKARA:

1. UKARA creates a database which is capable of creating and storing (in a GDPR-compliant fashion, obviously) profiles for retailers, sites and players.
2. UKARA creates a web portal, with online forms, through which retailers, sites and players can fill out their information, upload supporting documentation, and view their own profile (and others', but only once the other has consented to the release only of the required information for each individual request).
3. UKARA dedicates staff to manage the database and review information supplied by retailers, sites and players on initial application, and a periodic basis thereafter.

Then how it works for sites:

1. The site registers with UKARA via an online form, and uploads its contact details and insurance information. This is manually inspected by UKARA staff. A site profile is created by said staff, and the details of the insurance and its expiry date logged against the site's entry in the UKARA backend. When the expiry date nears the site owner is independently notified by UKARA that its continued eligibility is contingent on supply of updated insurance documents. The site is responsible for updating UKARA as to any change in its circumstances, e.g. if it closes or opens a new location, which would be manually reviewed by UKARA staff. Each location has a unique entry in the UKARA backend.
2. The site installs an app on a "site" smartphone, tablet etc., and logs in to the site's profile within the app. This app uses NFC, or scans a QR code, or similar to communicate with a player's smartphone. This doesn't need to have live internet connectivity - the app can just upload data to the UKARA database the next time it is connected to the internet. The only time it would need immediate access to the database would be to check a player's eligibility for an in-person purchase of a RIF on-site.
3. This could also be of use to the site in other ways, e.g. establishing whether a player has already signed and completed the site's own insurance waivers etc. by logging that as an entry on the players' profile which is only viewable as a yes/no answer and only requestable by that site's app.
4. It also removes from the site the current burden of manually entering (and updating, etc.) players' details on UKARA's system.

Then how it works for the player:

1. The player registers a profile with UKARA. The usual details - profile picture, name, address, age etc. - are supplied via an online application. The player uploads their proofs of age, address etc., all of which are manually reviewed by UKARA staff. A player profile is created by said staff, and the player's details logged against this entry. The player is responsible for updating their profile as to any change in circumstances, e.g. a change in address, which will be manually reviewed by UKARA staff and require the same proofs as the original application.
2. The player installs an app on their smartphone, and logs in to their profile within the app.
3. When the player attends a game, the app displays their profile picture to the site staff to confirm the player is using their own profile, and uses NFC, or presents a QR code, or similar, so that the site can scan their profile using the site smartphone. This doesn't need much work to be GDPR compliant - the site app only needs to log the player's attendance, not access their personal details. The app then logs the player's attendance at a game on their profile in the UKARA backend.
4. The UKARA backend then adds the player's game to a rolling list of games played, and when a deadline of a year since the last game played approaches, the player is independently notified by UKARA that their continued eligibility is contingent on playing a game soon.
5. This has a significant benefit for players, who can now play at any registered site and have that logged as a game played on their profile. No more having to attend one site three times every twelve months, because your continued participation is logged every time you play at any site.

How it works for buying and selling:

1. Once a player has a profile, the UKARA backend can supply information on the player's eligibility. A retailer can register a profile on the UKARA backend using the usual online form, supplying the appropriate contact details and insurance information.
2. When a buyer wants to purchase a gun, the app can supply a yes/no answer as to their eligibility to purchase a RIF (or an IF, for that matter; they only need their profile to confirm they're over 18 for that and it can of course automatically update to eligible after a suitable number of games within a suitable period) to the seller.
3. When a request is made by a seller - whether that's a retailer or another player - to confirm the buyer's eligibility, the buyer is asked whether they consent to the distribution of their details to the seller. For an in-person purchase the app might display the player's name, profile picture and eligibility status so the seller can confirm the buyer's identify and eligibility. For a delivery purchase the app might display the player's name, address and eligibility status, so the seller can confirm the buyer's eligibility, and that they're delivering to an address which matches the buyer's profile.
4. If a sale is made, the seller could log a unique ID (e.g. one assigned to the request they used to confirm the buyer's details) against the details of the sale (in their POS software, or in a record book or something) so they could confirm in the future that they checked the buyer's eligibility before they sold to the buyer, which is the literal form of a s.38 defence.
5. This includes importation. Border Force can request a player's information (name, address, eligibility status) when they detain an imported gun, to confirm those details match a registered player's profile. This would vastly speed up situations where a player's status is unclear and Border Force detains the gun until they're sure everything is in order.

 

I mean... Isn't the whole point of an API to access data? At this point you're more picking holes in the technological implementation than the fundamental idea, which seems to me to be perfectly sound.

Remember that I was responding to your suggestion of a scanner to swipe players membership cards.

 

The scanners are still a technical solution, but you have detailed a process and system.  
The  full process you have now given doesn’t necessarily have to rely on technology of scanners etc, but is based on the information that needs to be shared / verified at each stage. 

 

 

 

 

For the API element, the point of an API is not only to enable accessing data but also to deny accessing data - ensure the right level of data access is provided to the right people

 

Using NFC/RFID cards needs those cards to be produced and printed for each player. Cards are cheap enough, especially in bulk but printing is expensive.  

They would need an in house card printer or having them printed in batches.

With QR code’s (or barcodes, membership numbers etc) you could get away with printing on classic membership cards and laminating which allows for one off printing in house. (Though the easier the option that’s selected, the easier it is for a rogue player to create a copy with a different face)

Smartphone users could have an in app card which enables NFC/RFiD on suitable phones, or display a QR etc.  But a players app needs development in both Apple and Android, has to pass approval for hosting on the App Store, and keep working when OS updates take place which means ongoing development.  So you need an in-house app developer or keep the services of a commercial developer.

If you accept the potential of player fraud (swapping photo) you can have a generated email copy of the card for players to print or keep on their phone.

 

For the fraud part - is there a genuine problem that a player wanting to stay in date would make a fake card for a different player to swipe in as them, and at a site where nobody would be able to recognise either of them?  I doubt it so the highest level of genuine card security wouldn’t be needed. 
 

The passage of information remains the key topic, and in your process in comparison to the existing UKARA process there is just the addition of logging all games rather than just ensuring the logging of your initial qualifying 3, plus continuity qualifiers each year.

The UKARA are apparently not concerned about the players problem of private sale / self checking service or that form batches are captured in a timely manner.

An integrated solution needs development of the database, server software, site & shop software / apps and player software / apps, abs the  server needs to be active for transactional or batch data transfer updates.  All with either security controls to avoid a breach to wrong parts of the database and/or separate sub sets of data with the relevant fields only for each type of transaction 

This will cost the money and time to develop and resources to maintain.

They don’t seem to be coping with a basic system already (or they are coping as well as suits them but not players)