The Big Dumb Death Walk and Why You Should Ask for Medic Rules

[Lollingsgrad]

I would like to have a brief rant about an issue I think most people don't care about and quite a few on top of that might outright disagree with me on. The walk to the respawn.

 

We take this aspect of the game for granted, but it sucks. I never noticed how much I hate it till I went to Gunman Airsoft where I discovered medic rules. In this case, you can get shot out twice in the field, dropping back 10 metres to respawn on an ally; third time it's back to respawn. I love this system; it makes the gameplay more aggressive, you get more trigger time and you don't get worn out trotting back and forth.

 

There's a pretty big problem with that last point I'm not convinced gets enough consideration. I don't think it's unfair to say a significant portion of airsofters are not in the best shape and I've noticed at most places I go to you get a fair number of dropouts at lunch time. I reckon long respawn walks exacerbate this but that isn't the major problem; I think the real issue is that a lack of medic rules favours the winning team. If the other team's doing better, you're walking more. This is bad for everyone because if your opponent's tired and can't get a break, then when lunch time rolls around and they're looking out a repeat for the afternoon, suddenly you're going to be down an opponent.

 

My experience with medic rules tells me you don't need the respawn walks to tire out your opponents and allow you to gain ground. If you're playing better you'll get it anyway, especially if the medic rules are well-designed like they seem to be at Gunman. I'm yet to hear a good counter argument against medic rules, but I'd be interested to hear them if you have them. Also does your field have medic rules? If so, how do they implement them?

[Cyberlawyer]

To me what you describe is more of a rolling respawn than a medic rule. I have seen this done several ways including (a) drop back at least 10 metres to an unengaged friendly, (b) drop back to a team marshal who is following behind the line of engagement, or (c) respawn point is x until you take the first objective then that objective becomes respawn while you take objective 2 etc (in each of these the rolling respawn can be in effect for a limited number of hits or a limited time or the whole game). In every case the aim is to prevent too many long trudges back to respawn. I think these rules work really well in skirmish scenarios where you have an attacking side and a defending side (and you will usually play the scenario twice so each team gets a turn attacking and defending), and can be tailored to balance the scenario (e.g. defenders get 2 rolling respawn while attackers are unlimited for the first 20/30 mins of the game).
 

Where I’m not such a fan is where you have a more balanced scenarios where both teams have identical objectives. I e both teams trying to capture the same bunker/flag or search for the same vip/HVT at the same time. In these scenarios the time a player is out of game to respawn is important to give the team that scored the kill the added freedom of movement that having a man down on the other side gives them. IMHO without this tactics seem to suffer and the game just becomes a slug fest round the objective with no one really loosing too much ground.

 

Milsims usually have slightly more immersive ‘medic rules’ As is fitting given the aim of those events. This is fine they are not such shooter fests anyway so you are not as likely to get ‘killed’ multiple times in an hour.

[PopRocket123]

Combat South (rip) had mastered the trolling respawn. It was always fast enough back that getting a kill made a difference but not too far that you'd get tired and frustrated spending all your time waking too and from it. Games with fixed reopens generally took place in smaller sections of the game area.

 

I think the medic rule definitely has merit. It encourages teamwork and having a squad or looking up with other friendlies and can make for amazing last ditch attempts to hold ground against an overwhelming force. That said if done wrong you end up with a situation where it's impossible to gain ground and it turns into a very static gameplay experience. Honestly I'm not sure I'm a fan of the rules you've described. I'd prefer either the rolling respawn or a medic system where your team has to get to you to revive you and a limited number of respawns. It's important to remember that for attack and defend games to work there needs to be a shift in the front lines and generally this means seeing the game and rules up for the attacking team to win

[SeniorSpaz87]

Coming from the MilSim side of things, I find the "relaxed" medic rule to be the best, and an adaptation to fit weekend games would be easy. For the games I often attend, its: player gets hit, starts bleed out. If medic'd by a friendly you're back in, down a life. If 5 minutes goes by, head back to respawn and reset your lives. While MilSims tend to need bandaging or something similar, the 10 second hands-on rule works just fine for weekend games. Dead players waiting for a medic follow normal dead player rules, must sit or lie down, red rag or light for low light games, etc. The advantages of a system are, of course, what @Lollingsgrad said, plus it gives a side more things to focus on. Do you, as a player, run up to medic a friendly - taking yourself out of the fight for the 30 sec or so it takes to get to them and medic them, or do you hold an advantageous position? That being said, it creates an interesting sudden lull when someone has bled out - as all these players suddenly head to respawn. It allows the winning team to take some ground, and keep the game going. The constant revive system like Lollings mentioned can make taking out a player seem pointless, if all he has to do is walk back a few meters, and now youve lost the element of surprise. 

 

I've had events that I planned for weeks get washed down due to poor spawn placement - no one wants to have to climb a massive hill to get to the respawn at the top. Im a little pudgy but used to being on my feet all day in a good amount of kit - working as a range instructor does that to you. And armor inserts add a lot more weight than the stuff I switch out for airsoft. Yet a normal one and done spawn system just bogs things down on larger fields. So yea, Im all for medic rules for larger games. 

[Adolf Hamster]

i do agree with the premise that the long walk to a fixed respawn kind of sucks, on a bigger site it tires you out (although you could argue that the exercise is a good thing).

 

the problem i have with medic rules is that the few times i've played with a medic rule enabled people just don't understand how to medic and you'll get the medics charging into battle and getting killed themselves.

 

couple that with the problem that given some folk cant seem to get their heads around the simple notion that getting hit means you're out, more complex rulesets tend to fall apart very quickly.

 

 

personally i much preferr the fall-back style of game, retaining the simplicity of the rules (you get hit it's back to the next zone or back 30-paces) whilst keeping the game moving and preventing stalemates (because as we all know the longer the stalemate the more likely someone is gonna turn on godmode to break it)

[Rogerborg]

Yup, I'm there to shoot and be shot, not for a woodland ramble.  And a long walk produces a distinct incentive to "not feel" hits.

 

Rolling respawns or fall-backs are the way to go. Whatever medic rules you run are icing on top of that.

 

Another thing I'm not big on is extended grind-fests where an objective just can't be achieved no matter how hard you yell "MOOOVE UUUUUP!" (from 10 metres back) and all you're doing is tiring folk out and demoralising them - which is another contributor to lunchtime leavers, and runaway winner syndrome.

 

So I'm also a fan of limited team lives, e.g. have the marshal at your (rolling) spawn count off a total number of respawns for the team, and call a halt to respawning when they're all dead, Dave.

 

Not something for random skirmish days, but in a milsim/filmsim environment, dedicated medics and limited heals are ace, as it produces a real incentive to stay together and play together as a squad.

[Tommikka]

Back in the day when I found big game scenarios the respawn was your starting point.

This would mean walking out of the woods safe zone on the middle of one side of the field, then walking half the length of a field to spawn and half the length of a field to find a firefight.

If then walk was shorter then you were losing.

 

If one side has the major advantage and is constantly winning then it’s for the organisers to balance things out.

Players are paying customers, there is no value for money in the fun to £ ratio for both winners and losers if it’s a landslide  a stalemate.

You need different objectives and different scoring methods, for example stopping counting kills saves the need to count them.

If owning land and locations is the be all and end all then it goes stale.  Instead of ‘blue held 5 locations, red held 5 locations and nobody managed to capture the one in the middle’

Mix up the locations so when one is captured the next points are somewhere else, also look at time points such as scoring who has an objective at a fixed time - you battle for it, but half an hour before scoring it’s not worth the battle to just hold it - as people are hit drop back to spawn, form up a strong group and recapture 5 or 10 minutes before scoring.

Then once the Marshall allocates the score head off to the next objective. 

This moves the game flow around and can change a single losing battle into a more interesting swing between sides

 

It was common back then to count eliminations, you were either counted as you left or as you rentered.  This loses one or two marshalls to doing the admin of counting.

 

I very much dislike the spawning method of going back a short distance and turning around, it’s open to ‘cheating’ ( not much point as it’s a matter of seconds, but I’ve seen it) or people who don’t know the distance so they do a quick turnaround or a long stroll.

 

 

I prefer additional spawn points:

flag stations spaced out across the field - someone needs to flip the flag first whilst live, then you just go to the nearest location with your flag.

 

Mobile spawn Marshall’s - they stand around with a flag, and will follow the action.  They may choose where to go themselves or they may be directed by a faction commander.

The Marshall is able to spawn players as if they are a medic, count them if they are being scored and watch the game for safety 

A similar thing can be done with an appointed player medic - that saves on using a Marshall and the faction leader has more of a choice on where to place them.

eg if you are in the big front line firefight then you are among many and can go looking for the medic or a spawn location (even walking back to the start). The mobile medic can be put in a ‘valuable’ location such as where there is a push or a smaller group trying to break through the line or to a specific objective 

 

Normally you want to keep medics out of the direct line of fire but they could be sneaking as close as possible 

 

I’ve experimented with many different medic rules, they all have advantages and disadvantages in how we want gameplay to flow.  For a couple of events we had ‘combat medics’ with a hole punch who can mark your player card a set number of times.  When you were hit you had the choice of walking to a nearby mobile spawn point (Marshall flag) or you stay where you are and call the medic.  They then had to successfully get to you, but in a hot spot you could keep the ground that you had gained 

 

 

 

 

 

[Albiscuit]

I suppose the only counter argument would be as Spaz mentioned. Not every game type might benefit from a medic rule. Sometimes you need to be able to push the enemy back into their spawn for an objective, also some people dont like to wait for it as I have seen. I have played with a medic rule once or twice and for the most part it worked.

I guess it also depends on the site, the layout and game types. Some places I have been to use a variety of spawn rules and options over the course of the day.

[Adolf Hamster]

9 minutes ago, Albiscuit said:

also some people dont like to wait for it as I have seen

 

in my experience that's as a result of the medic rushing in and getting himself shot or being too busy fighting to actually come and tag people back in to the point it's quicker to just take the walk, meanwhile you're still getting pelted left right and centre from folk who just can't get their heads around the idea that standing with your hand in the air means you aren't actually in-game.

 

i'm probably sounding a bit too bitter on the whole notion of medics, once burned twice shy i guess.

[GeorgePlaysAirsoft]

1 hour ago, Adolf Hamster said:

 

in my experience that's as a result of the medic rushing in and getting himself shot or being too busy fighting to actually come and tag people back in to the point it's quicker to just take the walk, meanwhile you're still getting pelted left right and centre from folk who just can't get their heads around the idea that standing with your hand in the air means you aren't actually in-game.

 

i'm probably sounding a bit too bitter on the whole notion of medics, once burned twice shy i guess.

 

this is exactly the sort of grey area that can cause drama from medic rules. Whilst you are waiting to be revived, you are still in-game, you are only "out" when you "bleed out" right? I've seen time and time again people getting bitchy cause they are still getting shot at when they are awaiting for the medic, whereas its clear with a different perspective that people are putting down bb's to disincentive a medic from coming near you. Sites that use the medic rule should really reiterate this very likely possibility during the briefing imo - it saves sour grapes. Personally I prefer to lie down with a rag over my face and count to 300 whilst I wait and just take the time to get my breath back! 

 

Likewise, one battlesim organiser has the classic medic rule of waiting 5 mins to get healed before bleeding out if you get shot - but a pyro or grenade kill is a total death - you can't get medic'd, but you have to bleed out over the course of 5 mins. I came across a group of people waiting to be medic'd and if I threw a pyro at them, it would mean that they couldn't get medic'd - arguably a tactical win for our team but I thought it was more likely that it would cause drama so I didn't. I'd prefer if they didn't have that rule, if anything so I'm not tempted to throw a pyro at people sitting cross legged on the ground! 

[Adolf Hamster]

40 minutes ago, GeorgePlaysAirsoft said:

this is exactly the sort of grey area that can cause drama from medic rules. Whilst you are waiting to be revived, you are still in-game, you are only "out" when you "bleed out" right? I've seen time and time again people getting bitchy cause they are still getting shot at when they are awaiting for the medic, whereas its clear with a different perspective that people are putting down bb's to disincentive a medic from coming near you. Sites that use the medic rule should really reiterate this very likely possibility during the briefing imo - it saves sour grapes. Personally I prefer to lie down with a rag over my face and count to 300 whilst I wait and just take the time to get my breath back! 

 

i'm not talking about firing near someone or getting caught in the line of fire, i'm talking about firing at them, the literal definition of overshooting.

 

i have no doubt that with a good crowd of people who understand and follow the rules properly a medic game can be an absolute blast and add some real dynamics, but then any airsoft game with a crowd of good people tends to be fun.

 

 

[Lollingsgrad]

I immediately regret using the phrase "medic rule" as it's clear it has different meanings depending on where you go. Where I encountered them they were just the rolling respawn rules people have mentioned. I don't like the idea of designated people playing as medics for respawn as that will mean a lot of standing around. Essentially I oppose any rules that require a mandatory hike or other time and energy wasting activities when you get shot. I reckon organisers need to proactively think how they can minimise that as a priority over other considerations because I don't know what it's like for everyone else but it's the #1 cause of bad game days for me (PS probably also worth noting I only skirmish so I'm not really talking about milsim).

[GeorgePlaysAirsoft]

1 hour ago, Adolf Hamster said:

 

i'm not talking about firing near someone or getting caught in the line of fire, i'm talking about firing at them, the literal definition of overshooting.

 

i have no doubt that with a good crowd of people who understand and follow the rules properly a medic game can be an absolute blast and add some real dynamics, but then any airsoft game with a crowd of good people tends to be fun.

 

 

 

Fair play - suppose there is only so much you can do to mitigate dickheadery but there we go. I wrote my post based on my (very anecdotal) experience of seeing much more of honest confusion from complicated/insufficiency clarified rules then I do deliberate piss taking, so whatever the rules are, lets keep them simple. I'm against "weapon hits" for that reason, and I think if they are in play, you should shout "WEAPON!" not "WEAPON HIT" as people may only hear the second word and make an assumption. But then again - maybe I am overthinking it as tbh i've not actually seen it happen myself so it can't be the biggest deal. 

[Iceni]

Gunman get a lot of things right.

The Grange (Gunman Coventry) have different re-spawns for different games but most games have the buddy re-spawn rule for attackers. Where you can re-spawn from any other living player who is not under fire. It's a fairly short countdown as well.

They also have static re-spawn points (mostly for defenders) with a short walk, and medic rules depending on the game.

The effect is both teams feel bigger, and the attackers have an advantage once they get rolling. The defenders having a short walk means they get pushed back at a fairly constant rate but there is always some action. Hard borders are used for the attackers so they can never push past a certain terrain location allowing the defenders to regroup and push back and the objective is normally very close to the boarder. 

They want you to play, not to have to walk a mile. They also do immersive short games with the teams rotated after the result. This works very well as you have 20 minutes of madness, followed by a short break for re-arm, then 20 minutes of defence. The result of that is you never hit that point in a game where you dig in and everything stagnates.





 

[Musica]

12 hours ago, Rogerborg said:

So I'm also a fan of limited team lives, e.g. have the marshal at your (rolling) spawn count off a total number of respawns for the team, and call a halt to respawning when they're all dead,

 

Some thing off about what you said don't you mean a 3rd marshal team who get to respawn when and where they want and rain down hell on the other 2 teams who paid to play airsoft? Wouldn't be much fun for a marshal to marshal a spawn now would it.

 

 

Only thing I wish my local did was use bandages/tourniquet to measure lives as it's far too easy for people to keep get revived endlessly which isn't necessary a bad thing but if others are taking their medic then respawning and others aren't it makes it very unfair to gain ground.    Honestly they should just make the waiting 2 minutes optional as a majority of people don't follow it and it's very frustrating.

 

[Tommikka]

10 hours ago, Musica said:

 

Some thing off about what you said don't you mean a 3rd marshal team who get to respawn when and where they want and rain down hell on the other 2 teams who paid to play airsoft? Wouldn't be much fun for a marshal to marshal a spawn now would it.

 

 

Only thing I wish my local did was use bandages/tourniquet to measure lives as it's far too easy for people to keep get revived endlessly which isn't necessary a bad thing but if others are taking their medic then respawning and others aren't it makes it very unfair to gain ground.    Honestly they should just make the waiting 2 minutes optional as a majority of people don't follow it and it's very frustrating.

 

I read that as a spawn point manned by a Marshall - they can count eliminated players for the scores, count the times individuals have respawned if they are able to identify individuals or have a system such as multiple armbands, and they can enforce any time limit such as waiting a few minutes before spawning.

 

An additional faction is another matter. They can be used to adjust the balance of a game switching allegence, giving extra firepower & aggression or being almost invincible.  They do need some special rules to be applied (even if they are some ‘secret’ rules or guidlines they use that the paying players don’t know) 
This type of faction or group should not go so far as winning but give strong support to a side 

[Adolf Hamster]

16 minutes ago, Tommikka said:

An additional faction is another matter. They can be used to adjust the balance of a game switching allegence, giving extra firepower & aggression or being almost invincible.  They do need some special rules to be applied (even if they are some ‘secret’ rules or guidlines they use that the paying players don’t know) 
This type of faction or group should not go so far as winning but give strong support to a side 

 

i remember we tried a "juggernaut" game, juggernaut was invincible to gunfire but if you melee'd him he'd switch sides and join your team.

 

of course it was somewhat reliant on the juggernaut role-playing a bit and not being too efficient at keeping folk away from him.

[Rogerborg]

11 hours ago, Musica said:

Some thing off about what you said don't you mean a 3rd marshal team who get to respawn when and where they want and rain down hell on the other 2 teams who paid to play airsoft?

 

Nah, what @Tommikka said.  You have a marshal at the spawn point who counts off the number of times people respawn, and after X respawns, no more, and it's down the players left alive.  It's not a limit per player, it's per team.  If you're running a moving spawn to keep it close to the action (which I think you should be) then you already need a marshal for that anyway, so it's not taking any extra resource.

 

Where it's different to a fixed duration (or playing until people just drop and give up) is that it scales to the intensity of the play.  If you're getting thrashed, it's over faster.  Play gets naturally slower and more careful as the game goes on and the marshal says "30 lives left... 20... 10..."

 

It's not perfect, as it has the problem of players sitting out once the team's out of spawns. But by then you're likely ready for a breather anyway, and if you're using a rolling spawn close to the action, you get to spectate.  And it might seem unfair that charge-and-die players are using up the team lives, but it has the merit of teaching them that as well when the marshal says "Oh, you again".

 

It's not a panacea, but it's another alternative to fixed duration for games that are liable to turn into a grind where an objective can't be achieved and it's demoralising to keep trying.

 

 

11 hours ago, Musica said:

Only thing I wish my local did was use bandages/tourniquet to measure lives as it's far too easy for people to keep get revived endlessly which isn't necessary a bad thing but if others are taking their medic then respawning and others aren't it makes it very unfair to gain ground.    Honestly they should just make the waiting 2 minutes optional as a majority of people don't follow it and it's very frustrating.

 

That does bug me.  Half the players aren't listening to the brief to begin with, half the time they don't emphasise enough that it's a 2 minute minimum bleed out, half of those who do hear that don't care, and half of those who try to follow it can't estimate 2 minutes.  Then there's the folk who forget / "forget" they've already been revived.

 

There's not a huge amount of merit in the 2 minute bleed out at the Depot anyway.  If you're hit a long way from your spawn, then you've got a long walk back, so are out of action for a while anyway.  If you're hit close to your spawn then you're getting humped and possibly camped (objectives are never near the spawns) so to address that you should be spawning faster anyway.  You can tell this from the number of times marshals spot bleeding out players and send them straight back to spawn.

 

Simpler is better in this case.

[Musica]

5 hours ago, Rogerborg said:

 

Nah, what @Tommikka said.  You have a marshal at the spawn point who counts off the number of times people respawn, and after X respawns, no more, and it's down the players left alive.  It's not a limit per player, it's per team.  If you're running a moving spawn to keep it close to the action (which I think you should be) then you already need a marshal for that anyway, so it's not taking any extra resource.

 

 

Yea I know what you mean I just think it unlikely the Depot marshalls would actually do something in a game that doesn't give them prime shooting time vs doing some math being bored.  Always botheres me they get to run around and do what they want instead of actually watching for hit taking etc. Similar to the hostile VIP just taking out 5 of you guarding him because he's bored and fancys shooting his gun for a bit. Or walking at a snails pace constantly asking where to go VS running at felt pelt back to the enemy team so he can be with his mates. 

 

I think medic / spawn systems need a way of accoutability i.e you hand over a token or something to resapwn or a marshal sends you out every minute so you might get back and spawn in 5 seconds or if your unlucky 50 seconds.