TAG innovation adaptation.

[GrindandClick]

Hello all,

 

So now the TAG Innovation rounds have revolutionized the uses for launchers, it sparked an idea that might (safety dependant) enable them to do the same for shoulder launched airsoft anti-tank kits?

 

Many use Nerf rockets in their anti-tank launchers to good effect, however I wondered if there wasn't a way one could hollow out such a rocket and insert the TAG round, so that when launched it could also go out with a bang?

 

Thinking about it now, even just hollowing out a Nerf from the tip like a pumpkin, then giving it smaller more numerous holes around the sides of the body, to then filling it with coloured powder and covering the side holes with a thin paper wad, could also give good powder explosion effect for cheaper? Maybe someone's tried that, good to hear any thoughts on bettering anti-tank airsoft effectiveness and practical uses, as shower grenades are a bit of a let down for these kits in my humble opinion.

[Russe11]

Nerf rockets are fin stabilised, TAG rounds are explosives. If you combine the 2 you are making a device capable of firing a fin stabilised explosive. This may well be safe enough but it is unfortunately rather illegal.

[GrindandClick]

Oh, good to know, well how about combining both of the ideas?

 

Hollow out the nose cone of the rocket, then wedge a TAG Paladin round on the nose of the rocket, which isn't explosive?

 

Even cutting the rockets front 1/3 of the bulb, filling with red + orange powder, then replacing the front with a brittle skin much like the TAG rounds that shatter on impact? Bit of lengthy DIY in that though.

[Ian_Gere]

I'm no longer convinced that it is illegal. On the face of it the law seems pretty clear - explosive ammunition is illegal, but i think it turns on what the law defines as 'explosive' and there must be a definition that excludes pyrotechnics, because otherwise mortar launched 'explosives' would be illegal also, and they clearly are not, or Bonfire Night would be a real damp squib...

 

 

 

 

 

 

Fnah, fnah!

[Lozart]

I'm no longer convinced that it is illegal. On the face of it the law seems pretty clear - explosive ammunition is illegal, but i think it turns on what the law defines as 'explosive' and there must be a definition that excludes pyrotechnics, because otherwise mortar launched 'explosives' would be illegal also, and they clearly are not, or Bonfire Night would be a real damp squib...

 

 

 

 

 

 

Fnah, fnah!

 

 

Mortar launched pyro is classed as Category 4 under BS7114 and are ONLY available to professionals who have to provide proof of training on purchasing. https://www.gov.uk/fireworks-the-law

[Baz JJ]

I keep reading about these and have been asked by our milsim players if they can use them.

 

So I went to Airsoft World who are the UK distributor and asked them about the legality.

 

They said

 

"The CE certificates have been pending since we stocked them at Airsoft World. That means they were accepted but we haven't had a physical copy in our hands. That is... until now.

 

In regards to the legality of the rifling and the manner in which they are launched:

 

1. The rifling is inverted.

2. The barrel is plastic and not metal, therefore incapable of withstanding an explosive charge.

3. The projectile is not fire by explosive charge.

4. The explosive in both the Reaper and Archangels are certified as 1.4S (The lowest hazard rating for explosives).

 

We obviously had to do our research deep into these before making them available on the market. We met with the guys at IWA and put the plans in place, it took a while... but these are well worth the effort!"

[Baz JJ]

They also now have CE certs for both the Reaper and Archangels, but advise as the

Paladins and Peckers are non-pyrotechnic, they aren't required.

[kriegar]

Am i being paranoid being concerned about the possibility of one of these going off pointblank in someones face and doing some serious harm?

[Lozart]

Am i being paranoid being concerned about the possibility of one of these going off pointblank in someones face and doing some serious harm?

 

No more harmful than any other pyro going off in someones face.

 

Or should I say "equally dangerous"? Either way, you could throw a Mk5 at someones face just as easily.

[Ian_Gere]

Am i being paranoid being concerned about the possibility of one of these going off pointblank in someones face and doing some serious harm?

Yes you are. The size of the charge is not enough to do more than singe your skin and sting a little.

 

I've skirmished with MK9 flash bangs, both outdoors and in*, and while they are fucking loud and would hurt you if they went off in contact with your skin, nonetheless I felt ok with it because what are the chances...? And yeah, I know that accidents happen (I've used those pale blue MK5's that go off at any random time from 10 seconds to almost as soon as you light 'em ffs) but so long as you don't 'cook' pyros, ie hold them while the fuse burns down and then throw them so they go off in mid air/as soon as they land, then even if they hit someone, that person has time to move before the bang goes off.

 

*The only restriction was that they could not be thrown in/into stairwells because that was too enclosed so hearing damage would be guaranteed.

 

Not that I'm saying there's absolutely no risk from TAG's, but there is just as much if not more from ordinary pyros, and airsoft is an adventure sport: you can get hurt playing... that is part of the excitement

[kriegar]

cool i wasn't sure if they contained more explosives than say mk5 for example, i guess my main concern is that with them being launched is there an increased chance of an accident? Also does anyone have any idea where site insurance providers will stand on these, i know of one site at least that isn't covered for CO2 pistols let alone launched pyros lol

[BrightCandle]

In a recent game one guy in low crouch had a BFG miss his face by 2 inches and explode on the wall right next to him. It was not far from doing some serious damage. He got lucky but those BFGs can be dangerous. The one safety feature we have is that they are pretty short range so we can see where its going and land it accurately.

 

I want long range grenades on the battlefield but I want as much safety as possible to. There are a lot of ways to get hurt in Airsoft, I have two scars already and seeing how annoyed and aggressive people get after getting hit by a BFG I am kind of considering stopping using them altogether because some people came close to blows over their use. I don't know if any site would accept any form of remote pyro like this, even if its not dangerous every marshall around the country has seen the dangers of pyro and the arguments they cause. After this weekend and the level of unacceptable verbal assault around them as well as the multiple near misses it strikes me pyro in a lot of circumstances is just too dangerous.

[Lowlander]

The foam that the TAG rounds are made off is very light and low density, i would say you were at greater risk from the peas / clay pellets used in thrown pyro.

[Lozart]

In a recent game one guy in low crouch had a BFG miss his face by 2 inches and explode on the wall right next to him. It was not far from doing some serious damage. He got lucky but those BFGs can be dangerous. The one safety feature we have is that they are pretty short range so we can see where its going and land it accurately.

 

I want long range grenades on the battlefield but I want as much safety as possible to. There are a lot of ways to get hurt in Airsoft, I have two scars already and seeing how annoyed and aggressive people get after getting hit by a BFG I am kind of considering stopping using them altogether because some people came close to blows over their use. I don't know if any site would accept any form of remote pyro like this, even if its not dangerous every marshall around the country has seen the dangers of pyro and the arguments they cause. After this weekend and the level of unacceptable verbal assault around them as well as the multiple near misses it strikes me pyro in a lot of circumstances is just too dangerous.

 

And that is PRECISELY why The Malls has such strict rules on the use of training grenades. Like they say in the brief - would you want to get hit in the face with a lump of metal that weighs the same as half a house brick?

[Ian_Gere]

 

And that is PRECISELY why The Malls has such strict rules on the use of training grenades. Like they say in the brief - would you want to get hit in the face with a lump of metal that weighs the same as half a house brick?

Personally i wouldn't mind, but then again I'm not stupid enough to skirmish without a mesh 1/2 face mask... but a foam shell exploding on my bare face wouldn't bother me either.

[Lozart]

Personally i wouldn't mind, but then again I'm not stupid enough to skirmish without a mesh 1/2 face mask... but a foam shell exploding on my bare face wouldn't bother me either.

A guy got hit in the head with a bfg and ended up in a coma for two months. The guy that threw the grenade got sued for it. Personally I don't see how ANY part of "realism" is worth either one of those outcomes.

[Baz JJ]

My conclusion is that they are legal to use.

However even Airsoft World use a 60m minimum engagement distance in their games. TAGS have a lot of energy when they leave the launcher. The muzzle energy is 24 Joules @ 32m/s. That's from the heaviest projective that weighs in at 48 grams.

 

Airborne pyro needs to be treated with respect. Its still a Mk5 - Mk7 when it lands and you wont have a lot of control over where it lands and who is nearby.

 

Here are some shots of close up impacts.

 

 

https://m.facebook.com/airsoftpyrotechnics?_rdr

 

The training rounds and powder which are non pyro have some merit in milsim for taking out vehicles and bases at range and we will allow them at Okto under supervision.

 

Not cheap though in terms of running costs for players.

[Ian_Gere]

A guy got hit in the head with a bfg and ended up in a coma for two months. The guy that threw the grenade got sued for it. Personally I don't see how ANY part of "realism" is worth either one of those outcomes.

Holy blood clot, batman! When did that happen? How did it happen? Did he drop it on you from a great height or something?

 

Ah... A guy... oops - watching telly as well. Still, what's the story?

Edited November 13, 2014 by Ian_Gere
thought u wrote I

[Baz JJ]

On further investigation, we think that the powder rounds might upset some players. After all, can you imagine having your nice crisp MTP marked with orange powder at the start of the game and have to walk round with an orange shoulder all weekend ?

 

We will allow the Pecker rounds for killing vehicles and mortaring camps etc in our next Okto game in April.

 

We looked at the smoke rounds but AW don't sell them in the UK as they are not CE marked.

 

We think TAG are brilliant and a huge step forward for realism, but realism means danger and common sense must prevail.

[Lozart]

Holy blood clot, batman! When did that happen? How did it happen? Did he drop it on you from a great height or something?

 

Ah... A guy... oops - watching telly as well. Still, what's the story?

 

I'll try and confirm the details tonight but as I remember it someone dropped a BFG from the upper level of the Malls and it landed on someone below. Either way, coma, legal action etc. Messy business all round.

 

I honestly don't see how ANYONE could justify hitting someone in the head/face with one of those things as "all part of the game". I certainly don't consider potential brain damage as a risk worth taking when I go out to play.

[Chock]

Well. I suppose the site could specify that you have to wear a helmet and full face protection (which I already do anyway). Yeah it gets a bit warm in that gear, but I know people are throwing grenades about, which is why I keep my PASGT helmet and mesh lower mask on when in the fire zone. I've seen too many people get teeth shot out and big cuts on their head to not wear that kind of protection, and I guess it would work for these kind of frags too.

[Lozart]

Well. I suppose the site could specify that you have to wear a helmet and full face protection (which I already do anyway). Yeah it gets a bit warm in that gear, but I know people are throwing grenades about, which is why I keep my PASGT helmet and mesh lower mask on when in the fire zone. I've seen too many people get teeth shot out and big cuts on their head to not wear that kind of protection, and I guess it would work for these kind of frags too.

 

I'd rather they stick with the useage rules they have (single level only, no higher than knee height unless posting around a doorway). A cheap plastic helmet won't give you much protection against a fist sized lump of metal.

[Chock]

True, but then again, no helmet at all won't give me any protection at all!

[Ian_Gere]

Well there we are then - no sites i've been to allow people to throw BFG's over shoulder height or drop them on people from above - this bloke broke the rules and someone got hurt - not surprising as airsoft is an adventure sport. Two lessons to take from that: 1) the rules really do have good reasons behind them, and 2) stupidity is an ever present danger so you had best take your own personal protection seriously.

 

If someone had fired a gun in the safe zone and taken someone's eye out, what would we be saying? That's against the rules too. Personally I get pretty irate with anyone who points a gun at me in the safe zone, let alone dry firing, regardless of the rules, whether that site's safety briefing has said no shouldering as well as no dry firing, and whether they have no mag in, etc and I'm pretty unhappy when sites do not have marshals check that players returning to the safe zone have de-mag'd and cleared their chambers, because then i feel unsafe removing my eyepro at all.

 

I would expect sites which allow TAGs to say that players should not aim them at people, in the same way that they often say that pyros should not be thrown at people, but I'd feel a lot safer being hit by a TAG than a BFG. We all know however that when we throw a pyro into a room, for eg, we do not know for sure that it will not hit someone, so conversely when we are defending in cover which obscures our exact position, it's possible that a thrown pyro will hit us without the thrower being in any way malicious or dickheadscious. I don't usually wear a helmet, but I accept that I should and if I do ever get sparked out by some penis behaving irresponsibly, I will not blame the site, or the sport...

[Baz JJ]

Ive now watched lots of videos of TAG products. The pyro based rounds, the Reaper and Archangel are flashbang rounds. Ive seen them fired in a CQB situation where they burnt the carpet in the room and made the Tango's ears ring.

Rolling that low towards the enemy is one thing - you can see largely where people are and not get too close. We restrict the size of those bangs in our games to MK5s to protect ears etc.

If you fire an Archangel 80m, you have no idea where it will land. It could land dangerously close to a player. If they only have eye pro on, it presents a risk. The round is very light and its impact is low at that range - its more the uncontrollable flash bang. Ive been told its a mk5 equivalent (120dB @ 1m) although it sounds worse on the videos.

 

Unless players wear full face, gloves, long sleeves and ear pro, I cant see how it can be done with any degree of guaranteed safety.