What would the most "function over form" AEG look like?

[Herrgh]

Imagine if airsofters suddenly became divorced from the desire to have guns look like real firearms. Suddenly, it no longer matters what an AEG looks like, only that it performs as perfectly and consistently as possible. A pure tool for lobbing 6mm plastic BBs up to UK power limits.

 

What would an Automatic Electric Gun liberated from the form-factor of an M4 receiver (or any other real world firearm) look like?

 

 

[RostokMcSpoons]

I actually find the M4 platform to be very ergonomic and enjoyable to use.  

I do like the rearward weight bias of bullpups, quite handy when I  an aiming stance for a while.

 

But for a pure plastic slinging device, then I'd probably go for an HPA'd hi-capa or SMG.  As light and short as possible, wankerish RoF with a drum mag.

 

(An MP7, with the exception of the wanker RoF might well be on my shopping list ?)

[Herrgh]

Fair point. I didn't want to limit the discussion by saying "no HPA", but I was referring to the concept of, I suppose, liberating the humble AEG gearbox from needing to fit inside an M4 receiver. I should've mentioned that in the OP, my bad.

 

Not sure where I read these, but I'll always remember these general points about AEG gearboxes (if they are correct or not I havent a clue, just going off memory):

 

1. They are a faff to open, service and repair.

2. They are more complex and have more points of failure than a real firearm.

3. The V2 design has flaws inherent to it, like the box shell cracking (probably far less of a problem nowadays).

 

Thought experiment: what if an ideal AEG gearbox was built first, with no constraints especially to internal volume/shape/etc, and then a gun-shaped housing coming after, rather than how it is now, being the other way round (the gearbox being designed to fit into a. real-steel shaped gun first and foremost).

 

 

 

[EDcase]

17 hours ago, Herrgh said:

Imagine if airsofters suddenly became divorced from the desire to have guns look like real firearms. Suddenly, it no longer matters what an AEG looks like, only that it performs as perfectly and consistently as possible. A pure tool for lobbing 6mm plastic BBs up to UK power limits.

 

What would an Automatic Electric Gun liberated from the form-factor of an M4 receiver (or any other real world firearm) look like?

It would look like a mini paintball 'marker' ??

 

 

Edited December 11, 2023 by EDcase

[Egon_247]

That's the beauty of rifs though.

They've been refined already by the real steel version (sa80 MK1/2/3 ah fuck it, just buy the American M4 variant) kinda thing.

Strip away all the furniture, they're all pretty much the same anyway. 

And function over form? Reminds me of my first wife.....?

[Rogerborg]

9 hours ago, RostokMcSpoons said:

I'd probably go for an HPA'd hi-capa or SMG.  As light and short as possible, wankerish RoF with a drum mag

 

Why not make the mag into the gun?

 

 

[Tommikka]

12 hours ago, EDcase said:

It would look like a mini paintball 'marker' ??

Exactly this

 

For function over form in airsoft look at the speedsofters.

 

The general gun look is inspired by looking like guns.  The existence of stocks and their standard position in real guns is there to minimise the shift caused by recoil - following the line down to the barrel, and snug in the shoulder 

This offsets your line of sight and has an impact on how you can move the gun.

 

An ergonomic paintball gun retains a form of stock via the air cylinder as the point of contact still provides stability and grip.  But it doesn’t have to be a classic stock wedged into the shoulder.

A curved fibre wrapped cylinder allows it to be ‘rolled’ in the shoulder and also the gun angled over in front of the face - making you a smaller target and putting the point of aim to in front of your eyes instead of needing to lean your head over to the point of aim 

 

The grip pretty much remains as is - this part of a gun is designed around human hands, but specific grip types vary.

An obscure paintball grip angled forwards, which was partially novelty value and partially ergonomics - but it didn’t take off well as it was different than the ‘norm’.  See the example below with the extreme of the Z frame and a ‘kick up’ ‘drop backward’

(similar to a ‘drop forward’ but reversed - a drop forward would allow a cyclinder to be fitted, lowered down and pushed forward which give a ‘better’ position making the combination shorter and  easier to angle in front of the face)

 

As with bull pups the trigger grip doesn’t have to be physically behind the chamber.  It doesn’t even have to be a trigger, a switch will do - see also attached 

This was ‘easy’ to point and shoot with a button - but he found it very tiring holding up his arm with the 100 round Qpod also on his arm, though the air source was via a remote line.

An airsoft edition would be more compact, could be all one unit and much lighter - but still involve holding your arm up most of the day - handy for a sneaky assassin type 

 

 

[Speedbird_666]

14 minutes ago, Tommikka said:

Z frame

 

 

I once saw a Bob Long 2k2 Timmy with a prototype (raw aluminium) Z frame at the European indoor tournament around 2003-4. It was gopping. And the ICD Bushmaster looked even worse with one fitted. 

 

Thank god they didn't become the 'norm'.

[Adolf Hamster]

17 hours ago, Herrgh said:

Not sure where I read these, but I'll always remember these general points about AEG gearboxes (if they are correct or not I havent a clue, just going off memory):

 

1. They are a faff to open, service and repair.

2. They are more complex and have more points of failure than a real firearm.

3. The V2 design has flaws inherent to it, like the box shell cracking (probably far less of a problem nowadays).

 

1- true, although you get used to it. ironically a lot of the faff is simply getting to the gearbox in the first place and the m4 despite being a very common first gun is especially annoying to get to.

 

2- more complex yes, although more points of failure is debatable. the gearbox design isn't inherently unreliable, it's the fact they're built to a cost, and that's typically a low cost. and even then they're expected to fire thousands of rounds a day without breaking a sweat.

 

3- not sure cracking is a unique to v2 problem, unless we're generalising that to mean any tm derived gearbox in which case see point 2.

[Tommikka]

1 hour ago, Speedbird_666 said:

 

I once saw a Bob Long 2k2 Timmy with a prototype (raw aluminium) Z frame at the European indoor tournament around 2003-4. It was gopping. And the ICD Bushmaster looked even worse with one fitted. 

 

Thank god they didn't become the 'norm'.

But I’m still jealous that you saw a live one 

[Pseudotectonic]

If you are talking about AEGs specifically, you are really talking about an M4 without the appearance of an M4

 

If you take all the functional parts out and put it back together, it would still look somewhat like an M4

 

You can go crazy with the design of the externals, you can even do one of those 3d printed guns like https://github.com/HYBRIDAIRSOFT/MOSQUITO

 

But in essence, it will be an M4, because an M4 is close to being the most practical AEG you can get considering the parts available

 

If you have unlimited budget and designing the whole mechanism from zero, of course that is another topic

[Leo Greer]

A modern V2 should have no issues with cracking below an M150. I know a lot of very low quality boxes do end up having issues… **cough cough** Ares **cough** …but that really shouldn’t be the norm. The V2 design as a whole is susceptible to strain on the front corners, but a lot of cracking issues are caused more by tolerance issues. For example, aftermarket cylinder heads with bumpers on the front are notorious for ruining shells. Or the issues with shells themselves, like many of the RA CNC shells have had, where pegs are in the wrong places, etc.

 

But now to the actual question…

 

For me, it looks like a lot like a P90 with a very slightly longer inner barrel (300mm), and an internal mid cap/hopper system, where you pour BBs in, wind about 2,000, and don’t touch anything for the rest of the game. Electronic trigger, throw a few rails on there. Design a hop system that’s screwed into the frame and is actually stabilized with good tolerances. Add an adjustable rubber clamp to the end of the outer barrel to hold the inner steady (just a grub screw would do well). And I’d use standard bushings just for simplicity. Brushless motor + potentiometer to finish it off.

[Herrgh]

On 16/12/2023 at 08:58, Pseudotectonic said:

If you have unlimited budget and designing the whole mechanism from zero, of course that is another topic

 

No, that's this topic lol.

 

On 22/12/2023 at 18:50, Leo Greer said:

For me, it looks like a lot like a P90 with a very slightly longer inner barrel (300mm), and an internal mid cap/hopper system, where you pour BBs in, wind about 2,000, and don’t touch anything for the rest of the game. Electronic trigger, throw a few rails on there. Design a hop system that’s screwed into the frame and is actually stabilized with good tolerances. Add an adjustable rubber clamp to the end of the outer barrel to hold the inner steady (just a grub screw would do well). And I’d use standard bushings just for simplicity. Brushless motor + potentiometer to finish it off.

 

Fascinating thoughts, thank you. That sounds like it would just *work*.

[two_zero]

I often considered this.

G&G SSG-1 is an attempt to get there https://www.foxairsoft.com/airsoft-guns/electric-rifles-aeg/m4/g-g-ssg-1-usr-speedsoft-airsoft-gun/





I'd say you need a v3 gearbox (common but much more robust than v2).

Translucent mid cap mags, compatible with existing mags, probably mp5 as they (an ak mag pouch can hold 1 * ak mag, 2 * m4 mags or 3 * mp5 mags).

I'd also go bullpup so that you can get a full barrel into a subcompact aeg.

might even channel the BBs from in front of the grip like on the conventional platforms to the rear.

Might even have an internal magazine big enough to last a match, maybe that can be reloaded or extended with external mags. Maybe several internal tubes in either parallel or in a revolving setup.

Safety trigger, possibly also an external safety, but one that can be locked in unsafe (way too many times someone has handed back an airsoft to me in safe so I've been killed in the field because the gun wouldnt shoot)

Selector switch possibly ak layout, bumped the m4 one by accident way too many times.

If it used external magazines, side feed would be awesome, meaning you could lay down without having to switch to short mags.


Ok, so just brainstorming: what if it had parallel gearbox n barrels, meaning you could, with the selector deciding which one, meaning you can have DMR fps when on semi?


I guess I should say quad rails, but I also feel like that goes without saying.

I'll probably add to this later^^

[Pseudotectonic]

If we are talking theoretical builds with unlimited budget, I think you need to define "function" first, which comes down to:

 

1. Electro mechanical systems

2. Ergonomics and play style or usage doctrine

 

For theoretical builds you will be looking at redesigning the whole gearbox which is a whole project

 

Ergonomics is different for everyone and everyone will have different preferences and this is affected by how it is meant to be used / what mission is it for

 

Because without clear parameters it is very hard to talk about what is and what is not suitable

[Leo Greer]

19 minutes ago, two_zero said:

I often considered this.

G&G SSG-1 is an attempt to get there https://www.foxairsoft.com/airsoft-guns/electric-rifles-aeg/m4/g-g-ssg-1-usr-speedsoft-airsoft-gun/





I'd say you need a v3 gearbox (common but much more robust than v2).

Translucent mid cap mags, compatible with existing mags, probably mp5 as they (an ak mag pouch can hold 1 * ak mag, 2 * m4 mags or 3 * mp5 mags).

I'd also go bullpup so that you can get a full barrel into a subcompact aeg.

might even channel the BBs from in front of the grip like on the conventional platforms to the rear.

Might even have an internal magazine big enough to last a match, maybe that can be reloaded or extended with external mags. Maybe several internal tubes in either parallel or in a revolving setup.

Safety trigger, possibly also an external safety, but one that can be locked in unsafe (way too many times someone has handed back an airsoft to me in safe so I've been killed in the field because the gun wouldnt shoot)

Selector switch possibly ak layout, bumped the m4 one by accident way too many times.

If it used external magazines, side feed would be awesome, meaning you could lay down without having to switch to short mags.


Ok, so just brainstorming: what if it had parallel gearbox n barrels, meaning you could, with the selector deciding which one, meaning you can have DMR fps when on semi?


I guess I should say quad rails, but I also feel like that goes without saying.

I'll probably add to this later^^

The trouble with side feeding is simple: corners. And catching on bushes or whatever.

 

I’ve brainstormed having a parallel gearbox, but the issues are many: weight, size, extra complication if you want to use the same motor setup, issues with reffing such replicas, etc. The simplest option is getting to know the refs and using an HPA system like the GATE Pulsar that allows you to have different power settings for each fire mode. That way you can have one mode as your DMR mode.

 

The concept is very interesting though.

[Pseudotectonic]

If we are redesigning the gearbox, if we free the motor and gearbox from the conventional form factors we can increase the motor size, increase the durability of gears and housing, and increase the battery space, in actual fact, we can make it a higher voltage system like some cordless power tools already use (in fact we can even model after those)

[Leo Greer]

I’m not knowledgeable enough to know if the idea holds water, but I had the idea of direct drive brushless, similar to what many RC helicopters use. Our current hearing system was invented in the age of ferrite motors pulled from the printer industry…