Lets discuss the difference between cultures about guns

[Rogerborg]

On 30/09/2022 at 11:04, Skullchewer said:

a company based in America, that loves its guns

 

In parts.  Facebook/Instagram/WhatApp/Meta is based in Menlo Park, California, between San Francisco and San Andreas.  Sorry, San Jose.  Looks like ~30% of households have a gun, across the whole State, but that'll be heavily weighted towards rural areas, plus all the untracked fully-semi-automatic assault-ghostguns performing involuntary wealth redistribution in the cities.

[Tactical Pith Helmet]

17 hours ago, RostokMcSpoons said:

 

 

Yeah, but I think we all know what it's supposed to mean

Nope.  We've still not settled whether it's better to be a satisfied swine or a frustrated Socrates.   

 

Thus we often live as frustrated swine, say some. 

[RostokMcSpoons]

9 hours ago, Tactical Pith Helmet said:

Nope.  We've still not settled whether it's better to be a satisfied swine or a frustrated Socrates.   

 

Thus we often live as frustrated swine, say some. 

 

Blimey, since when did people become so wilfully obtuse...?

 

If you need me to spell out what I mean by 'greater good' then I will, but... Really?

[Tactical Pith Helmet]

8 hours ago, RostokMcSpoons said:

 

If you need me to spell out what I mean by 'greater good' then I will, but... Really?

Apologies, I didn't intend to be obtuse.  

 

It was meant to be a throwaway comment referencing an old conundrum.  It certainly wasn't intended to cause you any offence.  

[Colin Allen]

On 23/09/2022 at 01:00, truckinthumper said:

First, I am glad this is being civil so far. 

I have had the pleasure of meeting many folks from all over the globe, and whenever I can I take them shooting, I do. 
I dont really know how many, but I have a hard time recalling any that did not have fun. I think one gal, but she also pissed herself over a spider, so that may not count. LOL 

I know there are many "its not legal here" attitudes, and I get it. What I do see quickly fade is the whole "taboo" thing goes away in a hurry and replaced with giggles and smiles. 
This is just a sample of what I have seen, so... take it for what it is worth. 

I just like to hear others views on many subjects, but this is one I am always curious about. 
I also believe that most people would enjoy owning multiple guns and would shoot them happily. 
My favorite people are the Asians, mainly the Japanese and Chinese. Boy, they REALLY get exciting after a few shots. Moreso than any other foreigner that comes to the USA. 

If we just set aside any laws, I will agree with all the post. There are some people just dont like guns. I understand that. It is neat how society can drill into a persons psych how guns are bad and a taboo. Why I always offer to take people shooting. 

I also see a correlation between people who live in bigger cities, have a major fear of guns, where folks from the country or more rural areas are way less skittish. No matter what part of the world they are from. THAT is the amazing part and speaks volumes.  

I have had a fair bit to do with firearms throughout my life, starting with a Lee-Enfield No4 Mk 1 and a Bren in school cadets through to the L1A1, the Sterling and the Browning Hi-Power.

I have no desire whatever to own a firearm and equally little desire to live in a country where children have to do active shooter drills at school, where loons carry firearms to go shopping, and where losers parade around in camo showing off their weaponry and their obesity in support of, or in opposition to, some aspect of government.

I far prefer the freedom of knowing that I and those that I care about are staggeringly unlikely ever to meet someone who is not a police officer or a member of the armed forces carrying a firearm over the "freedom" to own one.

Fortunately, the vast majority of people in the UK share that view.

[RostokMcSpoons]

3 hours ago, Tactical Pith Helmet said:

Apologies, I didn't intend to be obtuse.  

 

It was meant to be a throwaway comment referencing an old conundrum.  It certainly wasn't intended to cause you any offence.  

 

Ah fugggehdabbbahdid, I appreciate that, no offence taken.  It's just a discussion on a forum that took a slightly odd turn.

[Skullchewer]

Will you two stop being so horrendously nice and just fight already? I'm bored.

[Rogerborg]

14 hours ago, Skullchewer said:

Will you two stop being so horrendously nice and just fight already? I'm bored.

 

I'm on it.

 

 

14 hours ago, RostokMcSpoons said:

Ah fugggehdabbbahdid, I appreciate that, no offence taken.  It's just a discussion on a forum that took a slightly odd turn.

 

That's exactly what literally Hitler would have said.

[Madhouse]

Another shooting

 

Time for the good ol' US of A to roll out 'thoughts and prayers' before doing the square root of nothing about the problem.

 

They don't corner the global market on mental health or extremism, but they do appear to corner the market on guns per capita, ease of access to weapons and, of course, mass shootings.

Take the UK, we don't exactly have the strictest laws on shotguns (hell I've had one!) but there is no appetite to have them, we have no need. If someone's interested in guns then there are shooting clubs and even our beloved airsoft to scratch that itch (yeah, yeah, nothing like a real gun etc etc - I hear ya). America hit critical mass a long time ago so now everyone's like, 'well if everyone else has one, I need one' at which point it descends into a spiral of 'his is bigger than mine' and suddenly you've got people in towns owning ARs because they can.

America has it's gun laws based on the off-chance the people need to overthrow a corrupt government, unfortunately that backfired when the people came out in support of the corrupt government, so maybe a rethink is in order.

 

There is a difference between gun culture and mass shootings and you can absolutely have more regulation of weapons and keep gun culture healthy but that will never happen until the voting public agree.

 

Change can't happen unless the people want it and it seems upwards of 34,000 lost lives so far this year alone is simply collateral damage where it comes to gun ownership. So I guess the question that so many people around the world want answered is why are Americans happy to send their kids to school in the knowledge that at any point in time a random member of the public could just decide to execute them, their friends and their teachers? Same applies to going to the shops, work, restaurants ... is the entire country not just living in fear of being shot?

 

I'm very aware that the rest of the world is outside looking in. How would you go about preventing the population of a small town in the UK being murdered every year? Does it even register in a country with a population five times bigger than the UK? - it is a tiny percentage after all. Do mass shootings just happen in someone else's town? Is it just that we don't understand the scale of the US and what we think is a lot is insignificant when applied to the US's numbers?

 

Surely to protect the gun culture that you love, you need to be part of the solution to stop the mindless shootings from happening? Do you even want a solution to mass shootings? are we just going back to the collateral damage argument, it's 'just' the price of 'freedom' - but are you truly 'free' if you are constantly under the threat of being murdered?

 

Or does all this end in a raging civil war and the self-destruction of America as we know it?

 

I don't know the answer, I'm fairly sure no-one has that figured out. But the debate will go on far longer than the years any of us have left on this planet.

[Rogerborg]

20 minutes ago, Madhouse said:

Another shooting

 

Headlines when it happens in North Carolina suburbia, just a slack weekend in Chicago. https://heyjackass.com/

 

 

24 minutes ago, Madhouse said:

upwards of 34,000 lost lives so far this year alone

 

Mostly suicides.  Looking at a map, a lot of the deaths are in restricted ownership States https://www.gunviolencearchive.org/

 

If I could Thanos-snap all firearms out of existence, everywhere, forever, I'd do it.

 

Short of that, in Murca, I'd focus on mental health and the wars-on-whatever that incentivise crime, rather than trying to remove legally held guns.

[Madhouse]

54 minutes ago, Rogerborg said:

I'd focus on mental health and the wars-on-whatever that incentivise crime, rather than trying to remove legally held guns.

 

It's where I'd start. In reality no-one's going to change gun ownership in the US, it may get a little more regulated in terms of background checks but I can't see US citizens backing something like a 'pistols only' ruling because the military has AR's and if they're going to rise up against the military then they need ARs too.

 

Thing is then you bump up against a healthcare system that isn't free at the point of use and social healthcare provision on top of that and how do you spot these issues when they're no way of them entering a 'system' through which they can be spotted. We'd go to our GP who'd refer it to someone else etc but if you've no insurance where are you going to go?

 

Globally we've a long way to go on mental health.

 

It's not just a gun issue, that is for sure.

 

But in terms of gun culture, I see that as a different thing to gun related violence, much like the OP does. If you park the whole 'it's a firearm' thing it's like collecting guitars or stamps, hell we do it with RIFs. Part of the reason I have a lot of questions is that I think as an outsider I don't truly understand the US gun culture or the US feelings towards guns in general because it is such a different way of life, much like I don't get the Aussie obsession with Vegemite and TimTams ... although the German obsession with beer I get

 

As the OP said, all we have to go on is our media so this is a chance to get insight from someone who is living it.

 

[The Waco Kid]

 I do find the apparent change in US “gun culture” in the last decade or two interesting.

  It’s become a thing when a generation ago guns seemed to be much more of a tool for hunting/sport.
  Now there is a whole industry in selling the next home defence CAR-15 derivative. 
  
 Most of my experience with the US is working along side them and getting the impression that is really two different counties.

 I guess that’s reflected more than ever in the politics. 
 Unqualified gun ownership, US constitution doesn’t quite say that but hey that’s their legal system.

  
  The UK as has been said is quite regional and certainly a divide between town and country on this issue.

 

  Growing up in a rural area and working on farms it was excepted to have access to and use firearms relatively young.

 

  Urban expansion has forced many ranges and other field sports business to move. 
  Pressure from certain parts of the political spectrum have tended to demonise the firearms and country sports in general.

  The Legal response to specific horrific incidents has had an effect on some types of gun crime. 
  My feeling is social change has had the most impact.

 

  Living in a country where I do not have the right on carry a firearm wherever I go is fine.

  If it’s balanced by the fact that I do not need to carry one to be safe from crime. 

But never say never. And there are options to own and use a variety of firearms for sport.

  

 

[RostokMcSpoons]

Came back to this thread.. some good comments...
 

On 14/10/2022 at 15:17, Madhouse said:

 

Change can't happen unless the people want it and it seems upwards of 34,000 lost lives so far this year alone is simply collateral damage where it comes to gun ownership. So I guess the question that so many people around the world want answered is why are Americans happy to send their kids to school in the knowledge that at any point in time a random member of the public could just decide to execute them, their friends and their teachers? Same applies to going to the shops, work, restaurants ... is the entire country not just living in fear of being shot?

 

Surely to protect the gun culture that you love, you need to be part of the solution to stop the mindless shootings from happening? Do you even want a solution to mass shootings? are we just going back to the collateral damage argument, it's 'just' the price of 'freedom' - but are you truly 'free' if you are constantly under the threat of being murdered?

 

 

 

That "price of freedom" does seem to sum it up, as we see it from this side of the pond... if there was a "QAnon against gun ownership", they'd be saying there was some deep-state conspiracy with a mass-hypnosis of the population into supporting the military-industrial complex blah blah blah.   Perhaps that's what the NRA is  

 

On 14/10/2022 at 17:00, Madhouse said:

 

I can't see US citizens backing something like a 'pistols only' ruling because the military has AR's and if they're going to rise up against the military then they need ARs too.

 

 

The idea of the populace "rising against the military" just sounds so stupidly bonkers, doesn't it?

 

On 14/10/2022 at 15:44, Rogerborg said:

 

If I could Thanos-snap all firearms out of existence, everywhere, forever, I'd do it.

 

Short of that, in Murca, I'd focus on mental health and the wars-on-whatever that incentivise crime, rather than trying to remove legally held guns.

Yeah, not much else than that finger click will fix the problem, thanks to the millions of guns already in circulation.

 

3D printing seems to a building threat too.   Not so much for the few guns being made, but the willingness of non-criminals to go there, and indulge the idea of avoiding the law altogether in pursuit of their "rights".

 

Oh America, where did it all go wrong?

[The Waco Kid]

19th of April 1775…… 😋

Edited November 10, 2022 by The Waco Kid

[Tactical Pith Helmet]

1 hour ago, RostokMcSpoons said:

Came back to The idea of the populace "rising against the military" just sounds so stupidly bonkers, doesn't it?

 

Indeed, and yet the Zapatistas, Naaxalites,  YPG/YPJ, Yazidi militias, ELN, Nepalese Maoists, Sendero Luminoso to name the first to mind have done just that.  

 

Even more 'bonkers...'  Mao arming the Red Guards to rise against elements of his own government/military.  

[RostokMcSpoons]

1 hour ago, Tactical Pith Helmet said:

Indeed, and yet the Zapatistas, Naaxalites,  YPG/YPJ, Yazidi militias, ELN, Nepalese Maoists, Sendero Luminoso to name the first to mind have done just that.  

 

Even more 'bonkers...'  Mao arming the Red Guards to rise against elements of his own government/military.  

I was saying in the context of taking on the US military, but fair point well made!

[Cannonfodder]

The thing is those groups could argue that they're actually facing oppression by the government. A fat septic whinning about laws designed to stop innocent people from dieing isn't 

[Rogerborg]

2 hours ago, RostokMcSpoons said:

I was saying in the context of taking on the US military

 

[Tactical Pith Helmet]

11 hours ago, Cannonfodder said:

The thing is those groups could argue that they're actually facing oppression by the government. A fat septic whinning about laws designed to stop innocent people from dieing isn't 

Please!  These poor folk have paedophiles in pizza joints and reptiles running the country.  No wonder they're jolly cross.  😉 

8 hours ago, Rogerborg said:

 

Du ban GI!

 

Orwell reckoned that the last democratic weapon was the bolt action rifle.  He died before the AK was born.  Not that the Pashtun needed auto to slot invaders... 

 

For context, the Bill of Rights upon which the 2A is based was written after the people had risen and overthrown the govt.  They needed to ensure that they could do so again, especially as the Guild of Masters had been supressed in the previous century, and a lot of martial knowledge monopolised by the state as had been.   Technology has changed in the last 400 years.  Ideas about democracy/polity/representation/balance of powers have hardly moved on for 2500 years, certainly since the 1780's.  

 

 

[Rogerborg]

8 hours ago, Tactical Pith Helmet said:

Not that the Pashtun needed auto to slot invaders... 

 

It helps when you're magdumping AKs straight up in the air, en masse, which the Austere Religious Scholars apparently use for anti-air defence. Not even trying to aim or lead, just putting as much lead in the air as possible and letting aircraft fly through it.

 

The camera footage in the documentary Apache Warrior confirms how hairy it can get when everybody and their mum has an AK and ammo is cheap and plentiful.

[The Waco Kid]

On 11/11/2022 at 09:39, Rogerborg said:

 

It helps when you're magdumping AKs straight up in the air, en masse, which the Austere Religious Scholars apparently use for anti-air defence. Not even trying to aim or lead, just putting as much lead in the air as possible and letting aircraft fly through it.

 

The camera footage in the documentary Apache Warrior confirms how hairy it can get when everybody and their mum has an AK and ammo is cheap and plentiful.

Was it filmed in Sandford?

 

”…farmers, farmers mum’s…”

 

(I am not mentioning the greater good)