Less is more, thus shaved is more than bushed.. Warhead brushless question

[Skara]

Morning boiiiis,

 

My AK motor died after idk, less than 4k rounds put through, I tried to repair it but a) I'm not very good at electric/electronic stuff and b) the motor is beyond salvation (one of the neo magnets popped out of the can and the commutator seems to be ultra deaded).

Time to get a new motor, unfortunately my "local" retailers (read San Marino stores) don't have anything interesting in stock at reasonable prices and I thought that if I was going to spend money anyway, might as well get a brushless!

 

As of now there are only three options for bushless (hue) motors:

• Option no.1 which I know nothing about other than being quite expensive at €160/170

• Expert something that are known for not being compatible with MOSFETs 

• Warhead Industries Black/Base motors, highly praised by our Lord and Saviour @Armourpiercing

 

(Smol EDIT: leaning towards the Warhead Industries offerings)

 

The plan is to stay on the current level of wankness, so with 13/12:1 gears, 16tpa 30k motors and Gate Titan/Perun Hybrid I'm around 22/23 RPS on a 7.4v battery, I might stretch to 24/25 but that's the limit for sustained full auto fire (read magdumping a bush cuz I can't aim).

 

Should I splurge money on these motors?

Which version would you recommend?

Edited March 22, 2022 by Skara

[Adolf Hamster]

gotta vote for the warhead.

 

about the only downside is the motor tabs are very weak, and you really gotta be careful not to strain them when adding/removing contacts (although afaik they've been working at improving that since i had mine)

 

otherwise handles a titan just fine (with precocking/ab), i went with the standard speed so auto on 13:1 came out ~18rps but with a much much better response in semi than that number would imply.

[RostokMcSpoons]

Is there not a problem with pairing some MOSFETS with brushless motors?  I'm sure I've seen that, could have been when I was looking at Gates and Peruns...

[DerDer]

Would certainly recommend the Warhead over the option no.1 motor. The option no.1 has very long motor tabs, can be quite terrifying to nearly sheer off the tabs installing it into an AK motor cage. While the warhead ones are delicate, as long as you take your time you should be okay.

 

The efficiency of the warhead is nicer, recall some German YouTube channel doing a comparison.  The option no. 1 was soundly beat by the Warhead.

 

Recently installed a Base 27K into my Galil. Greatly increased the amount of shots I get from a 7.4v stick battery versus the Tienly motor was using in the past. 

 

In fairness to option no.1 they make a series of  medium length motor offerings. Which is nice as the Sig 55X series users usually get overlooked. 

 

If you're using a ETU just be careful with settings, warhead should have recommended settings on their website. 

[ak2m4]

fyi: When they came out WH gave me some to test here's the summary 

 

2000 cycles for each motor. First 1000 were 5 sec burst, then 2nd 1000 10 sec burst.  M100 spring, 18:1 Gearset

 

SHS 14TPA Motor with 7.4v (fully charged)
RPS = 18
Full Auto Amp Draw = 25
Motor external temp after 2000 cycles = 50 (centigrade)

 

Warhead Ultra Motor with 7.4v (fully charged)
RPS = 27
Full Auto Amp Draw = 20
Motor external temp after 2000 cycles = 35 (centigrade)

 

Not sure if it's like this across the board but you can see here better efficiency, lower temps and higher rps

[Badgerlicious]

On 22/03/2022 at 10:03, Adolf Hamster said:

gotta vote for the warhead.

 

about the only downside is the motor tabs are very weak, and you really gotta be careful not to strain them when adding/removing contacts (although afaik they've been working at improving that since i had mine)

 

otherwise handles a titan just fine (with precocking/ab), i went with the standard speed so auto on 13:1 came out ~18rps but with a much much better response in semi than that number would imply.

 

The newer one use more epoxy on the pcb. The pins on my black have been very slightly twisted to aid in motor removal, and they are working fine. It's worth exercising some caution since they are soldered, but I doubt the newer ones will jump off out of the blue. 

 

On 22/03/2022 at 10:57, RostokMcSpoons said:

Is there not a problem with pairing some MOSFETS with brushless motors?  I'm sure I've seen that, could have been when I was looking at Gates and Peruns...

 

Works fine with my perun ab++ on a 7.4v. 

 

Another vote for the warhead. I have a black high speed on a 7.4v titan, and it's a great motor. The efficiency means I can just run the one battery all day. On 13:1 gears it gets about 24rps but I only use burst fire. 

[Skara]

Cheers guys!

 

The "new idea" hype has died down a little bit, I tried to gather information on the various warheads but couldn't really find much..

 

So I mailed Warhead and they got back to me and, according to them, I am looking at the current performance with the standard speed, and 27/40 with the high speed (both black)!

 

For this kind of money I don't think the Base is actually worth it, there's "only" a €25 difference between the two.

 

So I think I'm gonna order the high speed, and most likely buy a long shaft one too to slap into my tournament M4 and play around with..

 

I'd have to modify the tappet plate, of course, so maybe shave it down 2/3 millimetres to ensure the gun(s) feed properly at 40 RPS.

 

Also the standards are in pre order atm on the European store, one more reason to get them faster motors

[Lowe]

I've got 4x Warheads - they're fantastic motors. Never had any problems other than a user error (lol) with me breaking a tab. It was easily sorted though.

[Skara]

5 minutes ago, Lowe said:

I've got 4x Warheads - they're fantastic motors. Never had any problems other than a user error (lol) with me breaking a tab. It was easily sorted though.

I now have two

Currently waiting for my non-loctite random thread locker to cure

[Skara]

So I got to quickly test them and.....

I'm disappointed.

 

The AK now does 23 RPS on a 7.4v battery (it did 20 with the stock motor) but somehow the power has dropped to 0.3J whereas before it was doing 0.99...

 

The M4, does 20 RPS with the warhead and last time I checked it was doing 22 with the SHS.

If I plug a 11.1v in it does 30 but then the power dramatically drops because the nozzle can't keep up (this I knew already).

 

I'm pissed, to say the least, because they're not cheap.

 

Both motors are marked "M", does it stand for high speed (36k) or did I receive two standard speed ones?

Edited April 2, 2022 by Skara

[Badgerlicious]

How's the cycle time? It could be that the nozzle isn't seating correctly even if the overall rps isn't much higher. It's a strange issue to have with 2 rps difference though, and it's hard to say without knowing how the guns are set up. I'll assume the motor height is set properly. 

 

You may have just had decent brushed motors before. They do exist. And you can do high rps builds with brushed motors, but the brushless have bucket loads more torque and run more efficiently. 

 

Might be worth having a word with the warhead users fb group, the company owner is on there as well as people with a lot of experience with the motors. 

[Skara]

From pissed to disappointed again.

 

Managed to sort the M4 by yeeting the delayer chip and shortening the tappet plate by about 3mm, power is now consistent and on par with the SHS HT setup.

Did drop 0.08J but that's most likely because of the new hop rubber. Anyway it's 0.92J which is perfect as it was a little bit too close to the limit before (legit 0.99J).

Still puzzled about the 2 RPS increase 😕 so yeah might join the FB group and ask there!

 

Cycle time in semi is stupid, literally feels like it's always on precocking.

[Badgerlicious]

1 hour ago, Skara said:

Cycle time in semi is stupid, literally feels like it's always on precocking.

Biggest benefit of the brushless tbh. What ratio gears are you on? It is "only" a 25k motor. 

[Skara]

9 hours ago, Badgerlicious said:

Biggest benefit of the brushless tbh. What ratio gears are you on? It is "only" a 25k motor. 

13:1 running on solid bushings, that's why it's odd.

 

If I were using 18:1s then a 18/20 RPS on what's considered a high speed motor would be completely fine.

Anyway I will open it up again tonight and reshim, just in case I did anything wrong (doubt it tbf, the gun ran flawlessly for more than a year in this configuration!)

[Davegolf]

IDK why all the complexities, with your current gearing - if reliable, quiet, cool running 24RPS is your goal then run a Infinity U-22000 CNC with 11.1v

 

Assume you were running a Titan before brushless?

[Skara]

4 hours ago, Davegolf said:

IDK why all the complexities, with your current gearing - if reliable, quiet, cool running 24RPS is your goal then run a Infinity U-22000 CNC with 11.1v

 

Assume you were running a Titan before brushless?

I Like to overengineer my guns.

[Davegolf]

Clearly 😂

[Skara]

13 minutes ago, Davegolf said:

Clearly 😂

For real though,

I like my guns to be able to stand prolonged abuse on chonky batteries, but then I use them on 7.4s... This way they'll last a lifetime

[Adolf Hamster]

tbf, 23rps on 7.4 sounds just dandy?

 

especially with the pickup speed for semi spamming shenanigans.

 

but then i've long given up speed chasing on aeg's in a world where hpa exists.

[Skara]

I WANT MOAR!

 

Nah, 23 is fine-ish, 20 on the M4 seems a touch low but heh, I'll check the shimming in a minute..

 

On a side note, I've been looking for polymer cylinder heads for the AK and holy shit I can't find anything outside of a vfc one and a couple of V2 heads (I know they fit V3s too).. everything else is crappy aluminium that only wants to crack your gearbox shell lol.

[ak2m4]

@Skara some fit both just don't like to say so, I know the plastic zci one does, or does with a small amount of filing around the holes

[Speedbird_666]

37 minutes ago, Skara said:

I WANT MOAR!

 

So basically a Wanker-gun then? 😜

[Badgerlicious]

On 04/04/2022 at 19:07, Adolf Hamster said:

tbf, 23rps on 7.4 sounds just dandy?

Fine is nice but if it's lower than what it should be then something's up with the build. 

 

Saying that, it is close to what I had on 13:1 gears anyway. Could just be a bit of extra friction in the system. 

[Skara]

Joined the AssBook group, posted my question, now people instead of helping are questioning that my guns can do 0.98J on a short stroked M90 setup.

 

Many useful, much entitlement.

 

I now remember why I don't bother with FB groups anymore.

[Davegolf]

So have you ordered a U-22000 or are you still persuing ball ache?