Ordering From Hk to the UK

[blocks1]

any advice for a first timer ordering from asia?

i dont quite understand how over here in the uk you need to hand out your license to buy replias.. is this not the same when importing from asia then?

 

are there any stores to stay away from?

has anyone purchased from https://www.proactstore.com before?

 

 

when it comes to customs and vat, is it not possible to have them write on the box "returns for repair" or something to avoid the additional cost?

 

 

Regards all.

[Asomodai]

15 minutes ago, blocks1 said:

any advice for a first timer ordering from asia?

i dont quite understand how over here in the uk you need to hand out your license to buy replias.. is this not the same when importing from asia then?

 

are there any stores to stay away from?

has anyone purchased from https://www.proactstore.com before?

 

 

when it comes to customs and vat, is it not possible to have them write on the box "returns for repair" or something to avoid the additional cost?

 

 

Regards all.

 

So not only are you trying to import without an easily provable valid defense, but you also want to commit Customs fraud? That wouldn't look great on the sport of Airsoft does it?

A valid UKARA needs to be written on the box of anything you import so that if customs find it in a random search, you can get it released easily. If you cant prove a valid defense the rifle can be destroyed and you in hot water legally. (Possible fine or sentence.)

 

UKARA is the one provable method of a defense that Border Force recognise and has a form of access to.

 

Read what happened to me and I was lucky enough to have a UKARA number on the box and could insist on them checking it as proof of my defense. 

 

https://airsoft-forums.uk/topic/47276-rs-t97-is-home/

[Tackle]

"LICENSE"

 

[Tommikka]

8 hours ago, blocks1 said:

any advice for a first timer ordering from asia?

i dont quite understand how over here in the uk you need to hand out your license to buy replias.. is this not the same when importing from asia then?

 

are there any stores to stay away from?

has anyone purchased from https://www.proactstore.com before?

 

 

when it comes to customs and vat, is it not possible to have them write on the box "returns for repair" or something to avoid the additional cost?

 

 

Regards all.

1) When buying in the UK the retailer is liable under the VCRA.  if they sell a RIF to an individual who does not have a valid ‘defence’ then they are liable to a fine in £thousands

When importing you are liable. Many Hong Kong retailers are aware and ask for you UKARA number to put on the label 

If you are over 18 you can buy an IF without a defence

 

2) Look through the forum for feedback on retailers, and buy from a UK retailer to support the industry, pay only the price they list with all taxes included, and you have someone more local to deal with issues

 

3) Hong Kong’s favourite customs fraud is to label as commercial samples valued at $0.01

Customs / Border Force know every trick

If you import then expect to pay an extra 20% import VAT, fees from the carrier that hold the item from £8 to £20, and depending on total value and item classification there may be import duty

 (All calculated on full value including postage, and they will look at the invoice which differs from the $9.01 declaration or reassess the value themselves)

 

[Rogerborg]

11 hours ago, blocks1 said:

any advice for a first timer ordering from asia?

i dont quite understand how over here in the uk you need to hand out your license to buy replias.. is this not the same when importing from asia then?

 

Yes, it's the same.  Get your UKARA number put on the packaging.  If you don't have UKARA, or some other defence - of which you are able to provide evidence - then be prepared to have the goods seized and destroyed.

 

 

11 hours ago, blocks1 said:

when it comes to customs and vat, is it not possible to have them write on the box "returns for repair" or something to avoid the additional cost?

 

Oh, sure, it's entirely possible for the sender to screw themselves by making a fraudulent declaration.  Why would they though?  Until it's delivered into your sweaty hands, the risk lies with them.  The same applies to having them under-value it for customs purposes - if it's lost or destroyed, they're out of pocket.

[blocks1]

14 hours ago, Asomodai said:

 

So not only are you trying to import without an easily provable valid defense, but you also want to commit Customs fraud? That wouldn't look great on the sport of Airsoft does it?

A valid UKARA needs to be written on the box of anything you import so that if customs find it in a random search, you can get it released easily. If you cant prove a valid defense the rifle can be destroyed and you in hot water legally. (Possible fine or sentence.)

 

UKARA is the one provable method of a defense that Border Force recognise and has a form of access to.

 

Read what happened to me and I was lucky enough to have a UKARA number on the box and could insist on them checking it as proof of my defense. 

 

https://airsoft-forums.uk/topic/47276-rs-t97-is-home/

 

great answers from everyone thankyou!

 

That clears up everything i wanted to know, i'm very pleased i didnt go ahead and place an order based on the responses here.

 

i never said i was going out of my way to committ fraud more so avoid it, as the comments have suggested if anyone is going to committ fraud its more likley on the side of the supplier, not the person reciving the parcel. on the topic of UKARA its a simple one, if you want a replica without the license then just buy secondhand - dont vent on me, vent on the gov for ridiculous legislation.

 

[EvilMonkee]

21 minutes ago, blocks1 said:

 

great answers from everyone thankyou!

 

That clears up everything i wanted to know, i'm very pleased i didnt go ahead and place an order based on the responses here.

 

i never said i was going out of my way to committ fraud more so avoid it, as the comments have suggested if anyone is going to committ fraud its more likley on the side of the supplier, not the person reciving the parcel. on the topic of UKARA its a simple one, if you want a replica without the license then just buy secondhand - dont vent on me, vent on the gov for ridiculous legislation.

 

 

Its not a license, its just one way of proving your defence.  Also, any reputable airsofter will ask for your UKARA number before selling to you or they are also committing an offence, albeit one hard to actually be caught at

 

[hitmanNo2]

21 minutes ago, blocks1 said:

i never said i was going out of my way to committ fraud more so avoid it, as the comments have suggested if anyone is going to committ fraud its more likley on the side of the supplier, not the person reciving the parcel. on the topic of UKARA its a simple one, if you want a replica without the license then just buy secondhand - dont vent on me, vent on the gov for ridiculous legislation.

 

 

 

15 hours ago, blocks1 said:

when it comes to customs and vat, is it not possible to have them write on the box "returns for repair" or something to avoid the additional cost?

 

 

[BigStew]

On top of all that has been said you are now going to have transport issues. At the moment many Asian retailers aren't shipping internationally or only using ships so it could take months fora delivery. If you can buy in the UK you really are no longer saving much by importing.

[Tommikka]

1 hour ago, blocks1 said:

 

, if you want a replica without the license then just buy secondhand -

 

No.  An individual who sells a RIF to anyone who doesn’t have a defence risks the same fine that a retailer could face

1 hour ago, blocks1 said:

vent on the gov for ridiculous legislation.

 

It’s not ridiculous legislation if you were the kid who pulled out his toy BB gun to show the armed response team who were called out to him and his mates, nor is it ridiculous legislation for the officer who in a fraction of a second doubted what he saw before him with the barrel of a pistol facing him and hesitated

 

If he followed his training to the letter then a young boy would be dead and a police officer would be living the nightmares of shooting an innocent child

 

 

 

[Rogerborg]

I'm inferring from your posts here and previously that you've managed to obtain a used RIF G17 without any consequences.  We know this is possible, and it does highlight the practical futility of trying to keep RIFs out of the hands of people who lack a defence.  Particularly as no offence is committed by the buyer (if over 18): I stress that you've done nothing wrong, and I'm making no accusation.

 

However.

 

The law may be an ass, but the fact (narrative / belief) that the current law is working and being generally followed is what's stopping our hobby from being donkey-punched into submission.  The defence for airsoft use was pencilled in later after the VCRA was written, and it's still only listed in the law as "permitted activities", with airsoft being "permitted" solely by being mentioned in an advisory Home Office circular without even a name on it.

 

That advice could be changed at any time, and the airsoft defence removed essentially on the whim of an anonymous bureaucrat, let alone a politician.

 

So I would urge you to make your intentions concrete and go and play airsoft at an insured skirmish site before trying to obtain any more RIFs.

 

Consider that once you're actually playing, and have a vested interest in continuing to do so, you may view these "How do I get around...?" style questions a little less charitably.

 

[Cannonfodder]

Re who's responsible for Customs declarations being correct, please see section 2.1 paragraph 2

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/notice-143-a-guide-for-international-post-users/notice-143-a-guide-for-international-post-users#postal-packages-imported-arriving-from-countries-outside-the-uk-or-eu

Also it's licenCe. We're not yanks

[Rogerborg]

31 minutes ago, Cannonfodder said:

Also it's licenCe. We're not yanks

 

It's a defense.

[Nick G]

I think Cannonfodder was just correcting the spelling there 🤣 

Actually I vote that Cannonfodder should review every post and correct the spelling, none of that nasty american nonsense ! and the offender should get a stern telling off. Grammatical errors on the other hand should result in the offender being strung up by the thumbs for a day or two. Stamp out the bloody 'text speak' or jive ! 😁

[Cannonfodder]

4 minutes ago, Nick G said:

I think Cannonfodder was just correcting the spelling there 🤣 

I was

 

34 minutes ago, Rogerborg said:

 

It's a defense.

Also spelt with a C, not a S

[Rogerborg]

1 hour ago, Cannonfodder said:

[defence is] also spelt with a C, not a S

 

It wasn't my best bait, but it still got a bite.

 

[Nick G]

Dear God, that actually makes me cringe 😂  Must be my age !

[blocks1]

18 hours ago, Cannonfodder said:

Re who's responsible for Customs declarations being correct, please see section 2.1 paragraph 2

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/notice-143-a-guide-for-international-post-users/notice-143-a-guide-for-international-post-users#postal-packages-imported-arriving-from-countries-outside-the-uk-or-eu

Also it's licenCe. We're not yanks

 

My local post office staff always suggest ticking the gift/other box when sending stuff abroad whenever I have gone in there. 

 

Just saying.. I don't want to ruffle anymore feathers here than I have already with my initial questions lol 

 

I am curious to know more about the ukara with regards to have received a rif as a gift from someone, what are the grounds in this circumstance? 

 

Regards all. 

 

 

[Tommikka]

3 minutes ago, blocks1 said:

 

My local post office staff always suggest ticking the gift/other box when sending stuff abroad whenever I have gone in there. 

 

Just saying.. I don't want to ruffle anymore feathers here than I have already with my initial questions lol 

 

I am curious to know more about the ukara with regards to have received a rif as a gift from someone, what are the grounds in this circumstance? 

 

Regards all. 

 

 

‘Gift’ on a customs declaration changes the threshold for import duty / import VAT.  (You have a slightly higher allowance before duty / VAT are payable)

 

’Gifting’ of RIFs relates to people who are too young to buy.

The VCRA covers sale, import,

manufacture/modification.  Therefore the gifting can be to someone who hasn’t qualified for UKARA.

[Asomodai]

2 hours ago, blocks1 said:

 

I am curious to know more about the ukara with regards to have received a rif as a gift from someone, what are the grounds in this circumstance? 

 

 

Gifting in that sense is when someone who has a provable defense such as a UKARA, literally gives you something for free. No money can change hands, so you cant give them money and then they purchase something and gift it to you. 

 

Stop trying to find ways around it that go against the spirit of the regs, it's blindingly obvious what you are trying to do. Get your UKARA so you dont have to take any risks with importing and not bringing Airsoft into disrepute.

 

Whats so hard in that? It's not even hard to get. 

[Rogerborg]

2 hours ago, blocks1 said:

My local post office staff always suggest ticking the gift/other box when sending stuff abroad whenever I have gone in there. 

 

I'm surprised to hear that they're advising you to make a fraudulent declaration.  What sort of goods are you regularly sending aboard that aren't gifts?

 

 

Quote

I am curious to know more about the ukara with regards to have received a rif as a gift from someone, what are the grounds in this circumstance?

 

Are you sitting comfortably?

 

As @Tommikka says, the VCRA 2006 doesn't apply to gifts, and nor does it apply to purchasing within the UK.  It does however apply to importing.

 

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/38/section/36

 

"(1) A person is guilty of an offence if—

(a) he manufactures a realistic imitation firearm;

(b) he modifies an imitation firearm so that it becomes a realistic imitation firearm;

(c) he sells a realistic imitation firearm; or

(d) he brings a realistic imitation firearm into Great Britain or causes one to be brought into Great Britain."

 

And no, convincing a foreign seller to put "gift" on the package doesn't somehow cancel out that you're causing one to be brought in.  "Gift" isn't a defence, it's just not listed as an offence.

 

The defences are listed in VCRA Section 37, except they're not really, since airsoft was added only as a later amendment following lobbying, and airsoft isn't actually mentioned in the law directly.

 

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2007/2606/regulation/3/made

 

"It shall be a defence in proceedings for an offence under section 36 of the 2006 Act or under paragraph 4 of Schedule 2 to that Act for the person charged with the offence to show that his conduct was for the purpose only of making the imitation firearm in question available for one or more of the purposes specified in paragraph (2).

(2) Those purposes are—

(a) the organisation and holding of permitted activities for which public liability insurance is held in relation to liabilities to third parties arising from or in connection with the organisation and holding of those activities;"

 

Do you see airsoft there?  Nope, because it's not.  It appears in a Home Office circular, 031 / 2007

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/the-violent-crime-reduction-act-2006-commencement-no-3-order-2007-firearms-measures

 

"The regulations provide for two new defences. The first is for the organisation and holding of airsoft skirmishing. This is defined by reference to “permitted activities” and the defence applies only where third party liability insurance is held in respect of the activities."

 

Then it describes a scheme suggested by the defunct Association of British Airsoft which is effectively the UKARA scheme.

 

It's important to note that UKARA is, and always has been, a scheme run by and for the benefit of airsoft retailers, not for players or private sellers.  It provides one way of providing the retailer with a defence, but it's not the only way: the defence is simply to show (and yes, it's a prove-your-innocence defence) that you've sold it for the purpose of airsoft skirmishing at an insured site.

 

Anyone over 18 is currently free to purchase, or attempt to purchase, imitation firearms, realistic or otherwise, with or without being able to provide the seller with a defence.  However, importation into the UK requires showing a defence, such as airsoft skirmishing, or theatrical use.

 

The reason that we get twitchy when it looks like people who haven't skirmished yet are attempting to do an end run around the VCRA is that airsoft sales are hanging by a thread.  That Home Office circular is advisory. It's not law, either statute or regulation.  I'd hope that a court would find it persuasive, but the only name on it is one Sam Hardy who appears to be a mid level paper pusher, not an elected official of any kind.  It could be changed or withdrawn at any time, on a whim, by pretty much anyone else in the Home Office able to produce and publish a circular. It would not even require Ministerial involvement since there's none listed on the original circular.

 

tl;dr version - the sale, importation, manufacture or modification of realistic imitation firearms for airsoft use could be criminalised literally at the stroke of a pen.

 

There are regular incidents of the police getting involved with airsoft guns, with or without justification.  If you saw the story about the guy livestreaming himself going shouty-mental in a flat in April and having his door put in by armed police, those were airsoft guns: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/04/22/dockside-armed-police-respond-man-firing-machine-gun-balcony/

 

Likewise I've seen a video recently of what appears to be teenagers airsofting in public woods and abandoned buildings, and twatting around while they're at it.

 

It's incidents like those that are going to get responsible owners punished, so the tl;dr version of the tl;dr version is - play airsoft at an insured skirmish site, then you'll be in a much better position to understand why we don't want our hobby put at risk by people who haven't done that yet.

 

[Cr0-Magnon]

@Rogerborg - Going a bit off-topic but in theory could a private individual two tone one of their RIF's if selling to someone without a defence?

[Rogerborg]

31 minutes ago, Cr0-Magnon said:

@Rogerborg - Going a bit off-topic but in theory could a private individual two tone one of their RIF's if selling to someone without a defence?

 

Don't see why not, it's exactly what retailers do.  It's not an offence to convert RIF to IF, nor to sell an IF to anyone over 18.

 

There's no specific permanence mentioned, but I'd expect any prosecution to look to firearms statutes which refer to "readily convertible".  As in, spraying it, yes; wrapping it in camo tape, that's having a laugh.

 

Although strictly speaking, if someone sells or gifts you a camo-taped IF and you take the tape off to reveal a RIF, that's an offence right there on the spot.

 

As the OP says, the letter of this law can be somewhat silly when you think about the realities of it, but not blatantly breaching it is what keeps RIF sales going.

[Tommikka]

1 hour ago, Cr0-Magnon said:

@Rogerborg - Going a bit off-topic but in theory could a private individual two tone one of their RIF's if selling to someone without a defence?

Entirely the right thing to do

[GeorgePlaysAirsoft]

2 hours ago, Rogerborg said:

The defences are listed in VCRA Section 37, except they're not really, since airsoft was added only as a later amendment following lobbying, and airsoft isn't actually mentioned in the law directly.

 

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2007/2606/regulation/3/made

 

"It shall be a defence in proceedings for an offence under section 36 of the 2006 Act or under paragraph 4 of Schedule 2 to that Act for the person charged with the offence to show that his conduct was for the purpose only of making the imitation firearm in question available for one or more of the purposes specified in paragraph (2).

(2) Those purposes are—

(a) the organisation and holding of permitted activities for which public liability insurance is held in relation to liabilities to third parties arising from or in connection with the organisation and holding of those activities;"

 

Do you see airsoft there?  Nope, because it's not.  It appears in a Home Office circular, 031 / 2007

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/the-violent-crime-reduction-act-2006-commencement-no-3-order-2007-firearms-measures

 

"The regulations provide for two new defences. The first is for the organisation and holding of airsoft skirmishing. This is defined by reference to “permitted activities” and the defence applies only where third party liability insurance is held in respect of the activities."

I fucked up the quote thing...

 

 

Quote

Then it describes a scheme suggested by the defunct Association of British Airsoft which is effectively the UKARA scheme.

 

It's important to note that UKARA is, and always has been, a scheme run by and for the benefit of airsoft retailers, not for players or private sellers.  It provides one way of providing the retailer with a defence, but it's not the only way: the defence is simply to show (and yes, it's a prove-your-innocence defence) that you've sold it for the purpose of airsoft skirmishing at an insured site.

 

Anyone over 18 is currently free to purchase, or attempt to purchase, imitation firearms, realistic or otherwise, with or without being able to provide the seller with a defence.  However, importation into the UK requires showing a defence, such as airsoft skirmishing, or theatrical use.

 

The reason that we get twitchy when it looks like people who haven't skirmished yet are attempting to do an end run around the VCRA is that airsoft sales are hanging by a thread.  That Home Office circular is advisory. It's not law, either statute or regulation.  I'd hope that a court would find it persuasive, but the only name on it is one Sam Hardy who appears to be a mid level paper pusher, not an elected official of any kind.  It could be changed or withdrawn at any time, on a whim, by pretty much anyone else in the Home Office able to produce and publish a circular. It would not even require Ministerial involvement since there's none listed on the original circular.

 

tl;dr version - the sale, importation, manufacture or modification of realistic imitation firearms for airsoft use could be criminalised literally at the stroke of a pen.

 

Sort of. That is the defence in the VCRA, "2007 No. 2606 Regulation 3" refers to the Statutory Instrument which (subsequent to the passage of the VCRA) granted the defence. The Home Office circulatory is an Explanatory Memorandum, which is / are "provided by the relevant government department with all instruments subject to procedure. They provide a clear explanation of what part of  the law the instrument is changing and why" - in other words it puts it in plain English. Why re-enactment is mentioned "by name" but not airsoft is unclear - I am minded to think its simply a matter of recognition - not everyone (in government or otherwise) would recognise re-enactment, but I'd guess that more people (in government or otherwise) would recognise that term then they did "airsoft". 

 

It may be of (minor!) reassurance to note the specific SI was signed off by the then Minister of State for Security, Counter-Terrorism, Crime and Policing Tony McNulty.

 

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2007/2606/made/data.pdf?view=extent 

 

It's correct that the explanatory memorandum has no legal basis, but in the absence of any other clarification about what is meant by "permitted activities" it seems likely that it would be drawn upon. But  I assume / hope we will never know. In any case I don't think the threat to airsoft is that the SI fails to specifically mention the word "airsoft".

 

As for removing the SI (the worst case situation, I reckon) - I'm really not sure. Section 4.12 of this document may give some clues:

 

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/pdfs/StatutoryInstrumentPractice_5th_Edition.pdf 

 

My view with ensuring the future of airsoft as we know it: 

 

• As individuals we should behave with the assumption that we will have to explain and demonstrate our conduct with reference to the  "defence" - I can't comment whether importing the RIF is "breaking the law", or "illegal", or both, or none - but I basically assume that its illegal anyway, we just have a "get out of jail free card"
• As a community we should be promoting the exclusive use of RIFs, not IFs at skirmishes / permitted activities, whilst recognising the barriers for new and and especially younger players. There's no real reason to see an IF at a skirmish at all, with the exception of that historical gun thing the details of which I've forgotten! Point is - ABA were successfully able to convince the Home Office that it was essential for airsoft that we use realistic imitation firearms. It's probably never going to happen but you can imagine Priti Patel turning up a skirmish, seeing someone having a great time with an IF and asking "well do they really need RIFs?"

 

Just my 2p  - not trying to start an argument.