Buying a gun without having a UKARA YET!!

[HeavyMendez]

Hello everyone,

 

I would like to start off by saying please tell me if this post is breaking any rules. I did look through the rules but did not see anything regarding this.

 

Ok so....... I have recently just got into the sport and I have fallen in love with it. I have played 3 games at different sites and would like to now purchase my first gun to enhance my experience and fun within the sport. I have played games at Anzio Camp (Leek), Dagger Woods (Preston) and The kill house (Leeds). I'm local to Manchester and these sites are to far away for me to go to on my own as I do not drive. My local will be the First and only site in Bury called The Vault. I fully intend to play here on a regular basis if I like the site.

 

My issue is I do not want to pay for anymore hire kit as I have already done this a few times. I have full intensions of acquiring my UKARA number ASAP. I would like to know realistically do I have any options for buying my first RIF without the number?. I am wanting to buy a GLOCK 17 GEN 3 as the site I will be playing at is a CQB site. I know a lot of people say you should buy a rifle first then move on to a side arm later but I would like to do this the other way around due to my local sites layout. Once I have played my 3 games and registered I will then purchase my Rifle.

 

**EDIT** I forgot to mention that I do not want to buy a two tone pistol I would like a RIF.

 

If anyone has any insight into this I look forward to hearing from you.

 

Have fun and stay safe  

[Guest Yukarin]

Hmm, I wonder if we've had a thread like this before...

[Rogerborg]

Follow my train/bus of thought.

 

You're planning to take an imitation firearm out in public, I infer on public transport.

 

That's an offence under Firearms Act 1968 section 19, regardless of whether it's realistic or not.

 

If you're stopped with it in your possession, you must be able to produce a "reasonable excuse", the proof whereof lies with you.

 

So, you produce evidence that you are on your way to or from an event at the Vault, right?

 

If you can't do that, the VCRA and whether it's two-toned or not is the least of your worries.

 

If you can do that, then isn't that also your VCRA S37 defence to VCRA S36?

 

What I'm saying is that two-tone isn't a permanent state, particularly on a pistol where just the slide has been painted.

 

Just be sensible, and I really do mean that your major concern should be being both discrete and prepared when transporting it in public.

[Tommikka]

1 hour ago, HeavyMendez said:

Hello everyone,

 

I would like to start off by saying please tell me if this post is breaking any rules. I did look through the rules but did not see anything regarding this.

 

Ok so....... I have recently just got into the sport and I have fallen in love with it. I have played 3 games at different sites and would like to now purchase my first gun to enhance my experience and fun within the sport. I have played games at Anzio Camp (Leek), Dagger Woods (Preston) and The kill house (Leeds). I'm local to Manchester and these sites are to far away for me to go to on my own as I do not drive. My local will be the First and only site in Bury called The Vault. I fully intend to play here on a regular basis if I like the site.

 

My issue is I do not want to pay for anymore hire kit as I have already done this a few times. I have full intensions of acquiring my UKARA number ASAP. I would like to know realistically do I have any options for buying my first RIF without the number?. I am wanting to buy a GLOCK 17 GEN 3 as the site I will be playing at is a CQB site. I know a lot of people say you should buy a rifle first then move on to a side arm later but I would like to do this the other way around due to my local sites layout. Once I have played my 3 games and registered I will then purchase my Rifle.

 

**EDIT** I forgot to mention that I do not want to buy a two tone pistol I would like a RIF.

 

If anyone has any insight into this I look forward to hearing from you.

 

Have fun and stay safe  

The way you have written it, you intend to use your RIF at an insured skirmish site.

That is the intent of the VCRA

 

However the offence of selling a RIF is committed by the seller. You need to convince a seller that it is worth the risk of them getting the fine.

 

[Falloutfan123]

I'm in a similar position actually, getting back into the hobby after six years, really don't want to pay for hire guns.

 

I have my old gear but just might fancy a new sidearm or similar.

 

How far do ppl get speaking to retailer's and explaining that their defence is valid despite not having an up to date UKARA membership?

 

I'm talking having previously been a regular player, having photo's etc to prove it and fully intending to play again at an insured site.......

 

[Guest]

@HeavyMendez I’ll take the bait, how old are you?

[HeavyMendez]

@rocketdogbert Hey dude I'm 31

@Rogerborg I did try to reply before to you but for some reason it didn't post. Regarding public transport. I will not be using it. My wife drives and she will give me a ride to and from the site. There is no way I would go onto a bus with a RIF if I got stopped by the police I would surely drop a brown trout in my pants lol

If buying a RIF would get anyone in to trouble I would not do it. I didn't think of that. @Tommikka

[Guest]

19 minutes ago, HeavyMendez said:

 

@rocketdogbert Hey dude I'm 31

 

 

Forgive me, we get A LOT of posts from under 18’s at the start of the school holidays 😂😂

 

You’re out of luck buying new, very few retailers accept anything other than UKARA. used, there are plenty of websites. Here, obviously, usedairsoft, zeroin, prefired, freeads are the ones I tend to use

[blobface]

The best way is obviously have friends who do airsoft already, that way you could borrow one of their guns for the pre-UKARA period, alternatively, you could buy a two-tone pistol from a company like Tokyo Marui (where the slide is plastic), with the intention to upgrading it to metal slide in the future. That way you're not necessarily wasting any money, since you're ditching the two tone slide anyway in the future, and just play the three games with that two toned gun. 

 

It might also be worth contacting those sites and see if they have a relationship with any of the local retailers, companies such as Wolfarmouries do services where you buy a RIF from them, and they keep it for you on site, so you use it there, and after the three games, you can take it home once the registration goes through. 

[Druid799]

Ok your 31yrs old , you’ve played the requisite number of games but unfortunately at different sites so you still can’t register on the ukara site , you say you wish too continue playing . As you are a grown adult and not some barely post pubescent kid who’s not to be trusted , have you got any friends through airsofting that are on the register and could get it for you ? I’ve a couple of team mates who’ve been playing intermittently for yrs now (one through ill health and the other through work) I consider both to be trustworthy scurmishers but neither can register so when ether wants a new toy I’m the gun runner for them ! 😉

[Tackle]

Buy secondhand off of this, or one of the other crappier forums 😏, if challenged you just need to convince the seller your a genuine skirmisher, maybe point them towards this thread ?.

& if successful, as has already been pointed out, be ultra careful with transportation etc.

good luck 

[Rogerborg]

22 hours ago, HeavyMendez said:

If buying a RIF would get anyone in to trouble I would not do it.

 

Yes, the offence is commited by the seller, not the purchaser.  You're entirely free to try to persuade someone to sell to you.

 

2nd hand sellers are likely to be less fussed about checking your defence than a retailer.  You could ask if it's OK to ask on the Vault's community page if anyone there wants to sell to you on site.  I stress the "ask if you can ask", as Facebook can be sods about cracking down on the sale of assault-style toys.

 

https://en-gb.facebook.com/pg/Jimjogg/community

[Supermoose]

 

Just cos insurance as mentioned by Rogerborg.

 

 

[Jedi_Master]

I do not condone anyone trying to circumvent the law or rules for gun ownership.

 

I believe that membership of an airsoft site is the simplest and best defence, and is not that difficult to achieve if you really want it. Many players do not have UKARA but do have their site membership as defence to purchase a RIF.  There are some skirmish sites that have schemes that will let you purchase a RIF through them, for you to use when you attend the site and which they hold until you qualify for membership and can take the gun away.

[Rogerborg]

4 hours ago, Supermoose said:

Just cos insurance as mentioned by Rogerborg.

 

Urgh, it's an option, but I wouldn't want to support that scheme, or the retailer behind it, more than strictly necessary.

 

I believe that they're trying to circumvent the "law or rules for [assault-style toy] ownership", which is not something that I'd condone.

 

 

2 hours ago, Jedi_Master said:

I do not condone anyone trying to circumvent the law or rules for gun ownership.

 

But as you know, there is no law that prohibits the purchase, attempted purchase, or ownership of airsoft RIFs.  Sellers can make up their own minds.

 

The intent of both the law and the "rules" (e.g. UKARA) is to keep RIFs out of the hands of wrong 'uns.  OP has (at face value) shown as much commitment and intent as anyone else who's got UKARA, he's just not managed to satisfy that particular retailer scheme yet.

 

Anyway, to be clear, I'm not suggesting trying to circumvent anything.  If you don't want to rent, I'd suggest buying a two-tone pistol.  The BBs won't care what colour the slide is.

 

Then, when you believe that you have a sufficient defence to the offence of modifying it into a RIF, you can easily enough one-tone it.

[Tommikka]

5 hours ago, Supermoose said:

 

Just cos insurance as mentioned by Rogerborg.

 

 

 

52 minutes ago, Rogerborg said:

 

Urgh, it's an option, but I wouldn't want to support that scheme, or the retailer behind it, more than strictly necessary.

 

I believe that they're trying to circumvent the "law or rules for [assault-style toy] ownership", which is not something that I'd condone.

 

 

 

But as you know, there is no law that prohibits the purchase, attempted purchase, or ownership of airsoft RIFs.  Sellers can make up their own minds.

 

The intent of both the law and the "rules" (e.g. UKARA) is to keep RIFs out of the hands of wrong 'uns.  OP has (at face value) shown as much commitment and intent as anyone else who's got UKARA, he's just not managed to satisfy that particular retailer scheme yet.

 

Anyway, to be clear, I'm not suggesting trying to circumvent anything.  If you don't want to rent, I'd suggest buying a two-tone pistol.  The BBs won't care what colour the slide is.

 

Then, when you believe that you have a sufficient defence to the offence of modifying it into a RIF, you can easily enough one-tone it.

There is that scheme

 

However if you read the VCRA legislation there is no provision for Cosplay

You could argue about ‘professional’ and the well organised CosPlay groups with regard to performance etc under the ‘theatrical performance’ defence.

 

Buying insurance for your own dressing up doesn’t go with the intent of the law, and no one in those communities appeared to participate in the VCR bill consultation prior to the act (which is when the UKRA got their campaigning underway 

 

Would be interesting if it came to the attention of the law that a retailer was actively pushing their own made up scheme for a defence not catered for in legislation 

[Rogerborg]

1 hour ago, Tommikka said:

There is that scheme

 

However if you read the VCRA legislation there is no provision for Cosplay

 

Indeed there is not.  Notionally, it's the seller's problem, but...

 

 

1 hour ago, Tommikka said:

Would be interesting if it came to the attention of the law that a retailer was actively pushing their own made up scheme for a defence not catered for in legislation 

 

... if that happened, we might all suffer.

 

I'm about 50:50 on wanting them to come a cropper, versus it never becoming an issue.

[Aengus]

17 hours ago, Jedi_Master said:

There are some skirmish sites that have schemes that will let you purchase a RIF through them, for you to use when you attend the site and which they hold until you qualify for membership and can take the gun away.

See I don’t get this. Surely just being on site and playing once or twice is a valid defence therefore they no longer need to hold it until some arbitrary point (the obtaining of a ukara I’d assume.)?

[MadMole]

Try British Airsoft Club. They are a registered defence comparable to UKARA but you can register sites individually and get membership after 3 different sites. None of the sites near me are UKARA registered so even though I play regularly and meet their requirements, I can't get UKARA membership. However all the sites I play are BAC members so I have my defence through them. Never had an issue with a shop not accepting that

 

BAC is encouraging retailers and sites to join, its easier than UKARA

[Tommikka]

19 minutes ago, Aengus said:

See I don’t get this. Surely just being on site and playing once or twice is a valid defence therefore they no longer need to hold it until some arbitrary point (the obtaining of a ukara I’d assume.)?

Having played once or twice doesn’t necessarily mean you would plan on playing as a skirmisher.

Especially once .... consider a bunch of lads or ladies go on a stag or hen do, they choose airsoft at an activity centre and have played once

They decide the guns are cool and go shopping so they can shoot each other at night when ragging their boy/girl racers around Tesco’s car park

 

 

We have precident that having played once does not make you a player of the game.

Delta Force have attempted to claim that the disclaimers signed by every single person to have ever played paintball and signed a disclaimer form at their sites makes their UKPBA a governing body with the largest membership of paintball players 

The Home Office laughed at them and only recognise the UKPSF and their site / player membership registrations 

[Asomodai]

15 hours ago, Rogerborg said:

... if that happened, we might all suffer.

 

See this is the crux of the issue. We are afraid to report problems with the current system due to a chance of a blanket ban on all RIF's. So we are stuck with this half baked system. 

 

Personally I think we should have a bonified, paid for license, renewable every year. Something with the same entry requirements as UKARA, but that covers not only the sale of RIF's but the persons right to own and use RIF's. It might sound more restrictive then what we have now, but with all the incidents we hear about RIFS being used in crime reported in the media, we need to stem the flow of RIFs going to average Joe and to reduce the bad press on people who do use them responsibly. 

[Aengus]

2 hours ago, Asomodai said:

 

See this is the crux of the issue. We are afraid to report problems with the current system due to a chance of a blanket ban on all RIF's. So we are stuck with this half baked system. 

 

Personally I think we should have a bonified, paid for license, renewable every year. Something with the same entry requirements as UKARA, but that covers not only the sale of RIF's but the persons right to own and use RIF's. It might sound more restrictive then what we have now, but with all the incidents we hear about RIFS being used in crime reported in the media, we need to stem the flow of RIFs going to average Joe and to reduce the bad press on people who do use them responsibly. 

 Fuck the kids right! 

[Rogerborg]

2 hours ago, MadMole said:

Try British Airsoft Club

 

I'll say one thing for them, their site is a lot more detailed and lucid than UKARA.

[Jedi_Master]

7 hours ago, Aengus said:

See I don’t get this. Surely just being on site and playing once or twice is a valid defence therefore they no longer need to hold it until some arbitrary point (the obtaining of a ukara I’d assume.)?

 

Because most skirmish sites forllow the same guidelines as UKARA, of playing 3 times in not less than 56 days (2 months) to obtain their site membership.  They are satisfying themselves that you are genuine by playing 3 times over a period, and not just showing up for two consequtive weekends. Their site, their rules.

[Druid799]

There is always lots of talk about potential danger to the sport if and when guns fall in to the hands of chav’s and other general scumery and what’ll happen if they proceed to miss behave with them but how many actually do ?

I’ve heard of one or two incidents but not that many (and the ones I had were a pissed local thicko and a couple of kids) and both were ‘armed’ with crappy market place springers , and the way the country seems to be rapidly heading for implosion due to the ever increasing levels of street crime occurring all over the country one does wonder will RIFs ever really be considered a viable weapon for said pond life considering how easy it is to get all manner of knives and guns from B&M/the corner shop/on-line/dark web/etc and the fact if you aim a RIF at another wannabe ‘gangsta’ there’s a very real chance there going to aim back with a real gun !⚰️