Looking for gun advice:

[Ollgeeze]

Hello all. Me and a friend have been to a couple of walkon days at bassets pole recently and really enjoyed ourselves so we're looking to get guns and get involved.

I've been looking at carbine AR's because I like to get stuck in and I need something reasonably compact, however I am hoping to get something semi auto so I can get the 450 fps too as I don't really use the full auto anyway. Struggling to find anything that fits the bill out of the box.

I have a fairly technical background so that side of things doesn't phase me. Do sites accept modified AR's at higher velocity with the full auto disabled?

Willing to spend up to about £400.

 

Any advice or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

 

Thanks

Oli 

[Asomodai]

There are almost no RIFs that have disabled full auto out of box. So they all need modification in some way to disable it. So yes sites do accept that. It can be achieved with a programmed MOSFET but many sites will only accept physical modification as its harder to switch to full auto on the fly with sneaky methods. 

 

Remember that as with anything over 350fps, 99% of sites will have a 30m minimum engagement distance so make sure you have a secondary for anything underneath that. 

 

Also you say you are looking for something compact, some sites and all milsims will not allow something that is not a DMR in real life to be used at DMR limits. 

[kasaran]

I wouldnt go dmr...  'i like to get up close' buuuut then imposes a 30m engagement  limit.  Doesnt quite work together.

[Kzwi]

I kinda want to say, forget about the fps, you can get some very decent result at 350 fps with the right hop up and a quality barrel, because a quality hop up can lift .28 or even .30. And have a bit of fun with full auto. And 400£ will buy you quality.

[Ollgeeze]

Newb in the house... I thought the 30m only applied to the 500fps single shots... I guess that solves most of my problem then. 

Can you recommend a good AR in my price range? I kind of like the AKu's but performance is key really. Main wants would be:

Electric

Not too big

Adjustable stock

Accurate (I've heard barrel length doesn't make a whole lot of difference?)

Decent out of the box

Close to 350fps as poss

 

 

[Musica]

4 minutes ago, Ollgeeze said:

Newb in the house... I thought the 30m only applied to the 500fps single shots... I guess that solves most of my problem then. 

Can you recommend a good AR in my price range? I kind of like the AKu's but performance is key really. Main wants would be:

Electric

Not too big

Adjustable stock

Accurate (I've heard barrel length doesn't make a whole lot of difference?)

Decent out of the box

Close to 350fps as poss

 

 

Can I ask what puts your off a say 320-330 fps gun?

[ImTriggerHappy]

Just now, Musica said:

Can I ask what puts your off a say 320-330 fps gun?

 

Because like most people that are new he assumes fps is a big thing and doesn't realise that there is no real difference between 320 and 350. 

 

Common trap that 99% of new players fall into.

[Asomodai]

1 minute ago, Ollgeeze said:

 

Close to 350fps as poss

 

 

 

As a new player you need to get out of this mindset straight away. FPS does not always equal increased range. It makes less difference then a decent barrel, hop rubber, nub and hop unit. 

 

For reference, my TM AUG high cycle with a decent tightbore barrel shoots at 270 FPS on .2's, but shoots 10 metres further then my mates fully upgraded Evo which is 340 FPS. 

 

Firing at less FPS also means less wear to the gearbox internals. 

 

Also as you like to get up close, all the CQB sites near me play at a 330FPS limit. One even plays at 294 FPS limit. 

 

 

[Philby21]

9 minutes ago, Asomodai said:

a decent barrel, hop rubber, nub and hop unit

 

This, a million times this.

 

I've two RIFs that both run at sub 300FPS, both will consistently out range most others and with a high degree of accuracy.  Admittedly one is a TM NGRS but the other is a G36 by SRC that I decided to learn about gearboxes with once I broke it.  Even before that happened it was performing amazingly well and all I'd done was fit a ZCI barrel and Prometheus purple hop rubber, used the original hop unit and nub (bespoke odd design so had to really), in other words about £25 of "upgrades" on a gun I bought second hand from a mate for £80.

 

[Ollgeeze]

Ok then scratch "350fps" with "good range"..?  But why so many dmrs and snipers if it doesn't matter?

 

I quite like the look of this. Is this a decent gun for the money? 

https://www.defconairsoft.co.uk/product/gg-gt-advanced-rk74-e-elite-tactical-inbuilt-mosfet-etu/

[Asomodai]

2 minutes ago, Philby21 said:

6 by SRC that I decided to learn about gearboxes with once I broke it.  Even before that happened it was performing amazingly well and all I'd done was fit a ZCI barrel and Prometheus purple hop rubber, used the original hop unit and nub (bespoke odd design so had to really), in other words about £25 of "upgrades" on a gun I bought second hand from a mate for £80.

 

 

I had the same hop unit as yours in my SRC XM8. There is actually a far better aftermarket one that has an optional feedtube to replicate the SRC design. 

 

Google AirsoftPro G36 Hop unit. I own three of them in my G36 based rifles. The rear of it replaces the front screw of the gearbox to increase stability of the barrel (G36 types are horrendous with accidental inner barrel movement.)

1 minute ago, Ollgeeze said:

Ok then scratch "350fps" with "good range"..? 

 

I quite like the look of this. Is this a decent gun for the money? 

https://www.defconairsoft.co.uk/product/gg-gt-advanced-rk74-e-elite-tactical-inbuilt-mosfet-etu/

 

Perfectly good choice there. 

 

If you want better externals minus the Mosfet have a look at the LCT AK's as well. 

[Philby21]

5 minutes ago, Asomodai said:

Google AirsoftPro G36 Hop unit

 

Cheers for that, will look into it and add it to my shopping list! 👍

[Guest Yukarin]

10 hours ago, Ollgeeze said:

Ok then scratch "350fps" with "good range"..?  But why so many dmrs and snipers if it doesn't matter?

 

I quite like the look of this. Is this a decent gun for the money? 

https://www.defconairsoft.co.uk/product/gg-gt-advanced-rk74-e-elite-tactical-inbuilt-mosfet-etu/

It matters when your combining the fact your increasing the FPS by 50%, with much heavier BBs and a solid Hop-up.

But for AEGs when you'll be typically using lighter ammo FPS increases don't amount to much.

[sonofsammo]

10 hours ago, Ollgeeze said:

But why so many dmrs and snipers if it doesn't matter?

It's relative really.
And it depends what you're trying to achieve and within what constraints.
For a sniper with a 500fps limit on .2's - meaning a 2.32J limit, you don't have to be at the max to get great distance - it depends on your hop unit, nub, bucking, barrel, spring, piston, piston head and weight of BBs... There are so many different factors. I have a sniper build which is running at 2.02J - so 13% under the max limit - and yet I can hit targets at up to 90m, because of what I have done with the internals.The sacrifice for this I have to make is I accept an MED of 30m.
To put that in perspective, 13% lower than 350 for an AEG would be 304.5fps on .2's. Again, it's entirely possible to get a gun at this fps outranging a gun running at 350fps. It's all down to the internals. It's why Tokyo Marui are so well thought of - their stock hop up unit is the nuts - and they generally run sub 300fps due to Japanese law. However, despite this, they can outrange many AEG's running at 350.
Sorry for the ramble, I need more coffee 😄 

 

[Musica]

12 hours ago, Ollgeeze said:

But why so many dmrs and snipers if it doesn't matter?

As you found out from your first post there aren't any DMR locked aegs really out of the box.

 

even if you made one most sites insist on the same rules as the higher powered bolt actions. 

 

like a site near me section 8

 

Quote

• Semi auto only capable rifle –  1.68 Joule, (which is  425 fps using a 0.2g) 30m min engagement.
• Bolt Action rifle – 2.32 Joule ( which is 500 fps using a 0.2g) 30m min engagement
• Semi auto only capable rifles >1.68J (excluding bolt guns) must keep to a ‘one shot per 2 sec’ delay.

 

One shot per 2 seconds delay. So you require a pistol to reach out to 30m and can only shoot once every 2 seconds with your primary if the target is over 30m. Best avoided for new players as believe that you will get sent off for firing faster or under 30m. which in the moment is easy to do. 

 

 

FPS IS important to a point like AEP pistols fire around 220fps so they are best avoided. 

 

Like a lot have said you just fell in to a trap that new players easily do thinking fps is the most important number and airsoft websites market guns at certain fps so it's easy to see why everyone thinks higher is better but there are limits for a reason any too many people focus on tweaking their gun to run exactly at 350fps but if that gun shoots 351 fps on the chrono it's going home as being too hot to play.

 

 

[Adolf Hamster]

if you want to do dmr do it properly and get an sr25 or a dragonuv, if you want to get stuck in then grab [insert means adjusted m4 variant here] and go wreck.

 

as for the whole fps argument, yes it does matter, but at the end of the day you're not going to be doing yourself any favours running a gun that locks you into an MED and you can't take to cqb sites. a lower fps gun (within reason) running a good hop/barrel and nice heavy ammo is going to reach out perfectly well. musica also raises a good point that some sites will send you home for being 1fps over (something i disagree with but that's a different thread) so being a little under means you will at least be guaranteed to play.

[Rogerborg]

12 hours ago, Ollgeeze said:

I thought the 30m only applied to the 500fps single shots

 

You'd have to ask the site.  Bassetts Pole don't seem to have their site rules posted, but yes, all sites that I know of have a 20m - 30m MED for anything that's putting out over their full auto energy limit.

 

 

12 hours ago, ImTriggerHappy said:

there is no real difference between 320 and 350

 

There's nearly 20% of a difference in kinetic energy.

All else being equal, a gun shooting at 350fps will outrange one at 320fps.

 

You can argue that the "all else" is more important, but that's like saying that a Porsche on crappy tyres can't put its power down as well as a Fiesta on great ones.

 

It's true, but it's an argument that trends towards reductio ad absurdum as you consider larger differences in energy and have to invent more reasons why the higher one won't win.  Put the same rubber on them (or in your gun) and the one with less power will be left standing.

 

Physics doesn't care about airsoft magical thinking.

[ImTriggerHappy]

17 minutes ago, Rogerborg said:

 

 

There's nearly 20% of a difference in kinetic energy.

All else being equal, a gun shooting at 350fps will outrange one at 320fps.

 

You can argue that the "all else" is more important, but that's like saying that a Porsche on crappy tyres can't put its power down as well as a Fiesta on great ones.

 

It's true, but it's an argument that trends towards reductio ad absurdum as you consider larger differences in energy and have to invent more reasons why the higher one won't win.  Put the same rubber on them (or in your gun) and the one with less power will be left standing.

 

Physics doesn't care about airsoft magical thinking.

 

Your right physics doesn't care and that is why just adding more power isn't so simple.

 

That extra 10%ish of more speed  does not equate to 10% more distance. If you take 2 objects of the same weight and aero dynamic principals and put them under different thrust the one under more thrust once the thrust is removed will start bleeding speed faster initially. This is because the braking medium is air and the faster you travel into air the more resistance you have. A bb at 350 will have a very small difference in distance to one at 320. 

 

There is a reason you need 500 fps which nearly a third again to gain about 10 metres over a good gun firing 350fps. 

 

I run a gun that I have tested at 322 and 380 but everything except the spring is the same. I got less 5mtrs difference of actual usuable range.

[Adolf Hamster]

the thing about it is that drag increases as a square, as does energy.

 

the way around that ofc is heavier ammo- less velocity=less drag but you're still carrying the same energy and using the magnus force to make up the difference.

 

it means at the muzzle a gun running .4's will feel much the same as one running .2's, but downrange that .2 is going to slow down (higher velocity means more drag combined with that drag force acting on a lighter projectile means it'll slow down faster), so the .4 carries that energy further, the added benefit of this is when it does hit someone it'll still have enough energy to be noticable rather than floating in.

 

a rough example:

 

 

Quote

 

Say we have a site, regular rifles have no MED and can be 1.3j or 375fps, snipers have 2.3j or 500fps but they have a 20m MED:

• Our rifleman running .2’s can shoot 38m, but if he can get enough spin to lob a .5g bb he’ll shoot 52m
• Our sniper running .2’s can shoot 43m, and at 20m the hit is a measly 0.4j or the same as being shot point blank by a 205fps gun, thing is if he packs .5’s in his gun he’ll shoot 60m and more importantly at 20m he hits with 1.27 joules, or the same as being hit by the rifleman at point blank

 

 

[jcheeseright]

45 minutes ago, Adolf Hamster said:

the thing about it is that drag increases as a square, as does energy.

 

the way around that ofc is heavier ammo- less velocity=less drag but you're still carrying the same energy and using the magnus force to make up the difference.

 

it means at the muzzle a gun running .4's will feel much the same as one running .2's, but downrange that .2 is going to slow down (higher velocity means more drag combined with that drag force acting on a lighter projectile means it'll slow down faster), so the .4 carries that energy further, the added benefit of this is when it does hit someone it'll still have enough energy to be noticable rather than floating in.

 

a rough example:

 

 

 

Your rough example is the first time I've ever seen realistic ranges stated in an Airsoft conversation.  Everyone thinks their gun shoots 60m, when really very very few shoot anywhere near that far. 

[ImTriggerHappy]

32 minutes ago, jcheeseright said:

Your rough example is the first time I've ever seen realistic ranges stated in an Airsoft conversation.  Everyone thinks their gun shoots 60m, when really very very few shoot anywhere near that far. 

Most struggle at 40+ mtrs.

[jcheeseright]

56 minutes ago, ImTriggerHappy said:

Most struggle at 40+ mtrs.

Exactly, 40 metric metres is about 85 Airsoft metres though. 

[Adolf Hamster]

1 hour ago, jcheeseright said:

Your rough example is the first time I've ever seen realistic ranges stated in an Airsoft conversation.  Everyone thinks their gun shoots 60m, when really very very few shoot anywhere near that far. 

 

1 hour ago, ImTriggerHappy said:

Most struggle at 40+ mtrs.

 

Those are worked out from the spreadsheet in my science ramble thread.

 

Given that the calcs are assuming no drop in spin over distance and some very rough approximations of drag based on laminar flow i'd wager if anything that's an over-estimation.

 

Of course reaching a distance and actually hitting anything at that distance are totally different things.

[ImTriggerHappy]

20 minutes ago, Adolf Hamster said:

 

 

Those are worked out from the spreadsheet in my science ramble thread.

 

Given that the calcs are assuming no drop in spin over distance and some very rough approximations of drag based on laminar flow i'd wager if anything that's an over-estimation.

 

Of course reaching a distance and actually hitting anything at that distance are totally different things.

 

 To be honest any physics calculations regarding a bb flight go out the window in the real world. Air temperature and flow are impossible to calculate for because whether wind outdoors or breezes indoors everything is unstable. A light breeze in the woods to us is a maelstrom to a bb.

[Ollgeeze]

Blimey. Started something off here.. Interesting debate though.

 

I looked at that G&G AK and looked great until I looked at some reviews. As a rule which manufacturer makes the best stock guns? I really have no idea what I should be looking at there seems to be so many manufacturers.