clumpyedge Posted April 13, 2018 Share Posted April 13, 2018 Technically speaking pepper spray in whatever form is also classed as being armed is it not? If you are caught with pepper spray (again in any form) its classed as carrying an offensive weapon and could land you in bother for common assault if you used it as a member of the public? So from that rationale even a police officer carrying spray is "armed" same rational would go for having an ASP...? I'm well aware of the vast differences between firearms and sprays/batons but if you're prepared to spray someone or give their appendages a bashing (suit you sir) why not have the option of less than lethal firearms for all police (baton rounds for example)...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steakandpotato Posted April 13, 2018 Share Posted April 13, 2018 13 hours ago, Rogerborg said: "Officer"? This is mostly a UK forum, where anyone close to being an "officer" would say "warranted constable." But you do you. Never heard anyone from the UK say warranted constable in my entire life Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steakandpotato Posted April 13, 2018 Share Posted April 13, 2018 Tbh I don't think it'd make much difference in the numbers of people applying, but I do think you'd start to attract a different type of person applying. I do also think it'd encourage existing officers to resign. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ak2m4 Posted April 13, 2018 Share Posted April 13, 2018 About 10 years ago I got a chance to install a computerised RFID gun tagging system in 2 Police armouries where I asked a few questions. Guys there were perfectly happy with the amount of trained officers. They believed it provided the best balance. There were always 2 vehicles out on patrol in the county (Kent) which I was surprised, thought would be higher - maybe this has changed now. 1 kit truck. 1 indoor shooting range (this was lovely), 1 force armourer who tested airguns etc with a high-end chrono. very interesting work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EDcase Posted April 13, 2018 Share Posted April 13, 2018 I don't think it matters what we think. Its up to the people in the police force to decide what they want and need. They'll probably want policy changes rather than equipment I would guess. As has been seen in the past with armed response units, the scrutiny they're under after discharging their weapons would be enough to put anyone off and just throw their guns instead. I respect the police for having to deal with the scum of the earth and still keep calm and civilised. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EDcase Posted April 13, 2018 Share Posted April 13, 2018 Then I think they should all have M60's and rocket launchers to deal with the scooter scumbags At the very least they should be allowed to knock them off and reverse over them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clumpyedge Posted April 16, 2018 Share Posted April 16, 2018 On 4/13/2018 at 11:48 AM, EDcase said: At the very least they should be allowed to knock them off and reverse over them. I know you're partially joking but... The one thing that really annoys me about the fluffy world we live in... as soon as a scooter rider or motorbike rider starts zooming off pursuing cars have to hold back or call off the chase full stop due to risk of life of the driver especially if the rider isn't wearing a helmet. Yet its fine for said rider to have possibly of just knocked over a jewelry shop with a machete. Personal opinion is that the justice system is so beyond wrapping people up in cotton wool these days its hard to see where people are actually getting justice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Countryman Posted April 16, 2018 Share Posted April 16, 2018 I think most of the food groups have been covered here already. I have been trained by and with Police Firearms Officers and can only say that they have a huge weight of responsibility in a force that will throw them to the lions if in a split second, life or death call, they make the wrong judgement. I can fully understand why the majority of cops just aren’t interested! My Dad did armed security overseas and always felt that because he was armed anyone attempting anything where they might come across security would also be armed. I think you would see an escalation similarly in the UK if Police were generally to be armed. Lastly, let me say as a Firearms Instructor of some years experience, not everybody is suitable for a Firearm. Moreover, far fewer people have the ability to pull the trigger on a living target when that moment comes. You can only hope that in that situation you behave in the way you are trained. Nobody that has not been in a life or death situation can be sure how they will perform in that moment. All the Airsoft in the world is no preparation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporters ImTriggerHappy Posted April 16, 2018 Supporters Share Posted April 16, 2018 38 minutes ago, Countryman said: You can only hope that in that situation you behave in the way you are trained. Nobody that has not been in a life or death situation can be sure how they will perform in that moment. All the Airsoft in the world is no preparation. Who said anything about airsofters carrying guns? Pretty sure the discussion is about trained police officers carrying guns because of the rise in violence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Countryman Posted April 16, 2018 Share Posted April 16, 2018 2 hours ago, ImTriggerHappy said: Who said anything about airsofters carrying guns? Pretty sure the discussion is about trained police officers carrying guns because of the rise in violence. No one. Think you need to read my post again. Not sure how it could be miscontrue. Big difference in playing airsoft to having your life on the line and having to make a life or death decision. Ultimely this is a decision for the police and individual officers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporters ImTriggerHappy Posted April 16, 2018 Supporters Share Posted April 16, 2018 47 minutes ago, Countryman said: No one. Think you need to read my post again. Not sure how it could be miscontrue. Big difference in playing airsoft to having your life on the line and having to make a life or death decision. Ultimely this is a decision for the police and individual officers. No I read it right and again in your response you bought up airsoft which has no relevance to this thread. It is general discussion nothing more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Countryman Posted April 16, 2018 Share Posted April 16, 2018 11 minutes ago, ImTriggerHappy said: No I read it right and again in your response you bought up airsoft which has no relevance to this thread. It is general discussion nothing more. Yes sure thats why its in the General Discussion category. A general discussion, on an issue ultimately to be decided on an individual Officer basis, who themselves would be forced to make a life or death decision, which experience of airsoft does not give anyone any peculiar insight into. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Countryman Posted April 16, 2018 Share Posted April 16, 2018 Hi Duff I have no issue with any Airsofter wanting to own a Firearm. Actually to the contrary, find a club, get trained and enjoy! At that point though there becomes a very real line between a real firearm and playing a skirmish. I do think there is a potential for people who skirmish to think they have some kind of empathy with people who do this stuff for real and Ive seen in the past that people can become quite Gung Ho over potential violence. The reality of the situation is some kid with a plastic gun (like above), or some desparate bloke, drunk or high and unable to deal with the breakup of a relationship threatening himself or anyone that comes near with a knife. In the USA both of those situations have ended up with fatalities. In the UK both of those situations have ended up with the perpetrator being arrested alive and getting the help they need. There is a time that peace has to be established by people skilled in violence. I'm just glad that in the UK thats in the hands of a public servent who doesnt feel its needed day to day and can call "highly trained" people when the need arises. (Dont get me started on training gaffs here) I do rue the fact that we dont have 100,000 armed police to secure London like the French did after Charlie Hebdo. Its just not possible with the 2500 authorised firearms officers available to London. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duff Posted April 16, 2018 Author Share Posted April 16, 2018 As I said this thread is about arming the UK police force, not big kids with a penchant for playing soldiers. Thanks for your opinion on that but feel free to start an alternative thread to discuss it further. Alluding to your comment that guns cause deaths of potential suspects, a guy recently walked into a travel agents and sliced off the head of his ex gf then sat calmly waiting for the police. It isn't so cut and dry, it's always situational. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Countryman Posted April 16, 2018 Share Posted April 16, 2018 How so? Only if an armed officer was immediately present and could have stopped the assailant could this have ended differently. As he sat there quietly to be arrested there was no need for an armed officer. Sure there are times when they are needed but does that mean you want your local bobby/ traffic officer armed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duff Posted April 16, 2018 Author Share Posted April 16, 2018 3 minutes ago, Countryman said: How so? Only if an armed officer was immediately present and could have stopped the assailant could this have ended differently. As he sat there quietly to be arrested there was no need for an armed officer. Sure there are times when they are needed but does that mean you want your local bobby/ traffic officer armed? Not personally. But say this guy didn't sit calmly and grabbed a member of the public as a hostage? In that particular situation armed police would be a better response. Again totally situational. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Countryman Posted April 16, 2018 Share Posted April 16, 2018 Absolutely. If the guy stood in the shop waving the knife about you can be sure the ARV would be there before anyone went in. There are better arguments for arming the police. Look at how the attack on Westminster Bridge/ Parliament was stopped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duff Posted April 16, 2018 Author Share Posted April 16, 2018 True but again very situational. Personally I believe the current method is best, ie a trained unit to deal with certain situations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Countryman Posted April 16, 2018 Share Posted April 16, 2018 Me too. If our Police want to review that situation then that has to be their right. I would be very against it being something forced on them but politicians or some press fuelled outcry. On 13/04/2018 at 8:42 AM, clumpyedge said: Technically speaking pepper spray in whatever form is also classed as being armed is it not? If you are caught with pepper spray (again in any form) its classed as carrying an offensive weapon and could land you in bother for common assault if you used it as a member of the public? So from that rationale even a police officer carrying spray is "armed" same rational would go for having an ASP...? I'm well aware of the vast differences between firearms and sprays/batons but if you're prepared to spray someone or give their appendages a bashing (suit you sir) why not have the option of less than lethal firearms for all police (baton rounds for example)...? Pepper Spray is a prohibited weapon in the Firearms Act. You would face proscecution as a firearm. Potentially a mandatory 5 year sentence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Tackle Posted April 16, 2018 Moderators Share Posted April 16, 2018 On 13 April 2018 at 8:42 AM, clumpyedge said: less than lethal firearms for all police (baton rounds for example)...? Lol, Less lethal ?, obviously you've never seen baton rounds in use, they are highly unstable & uncontrollable, & always potentially lethal, hence why no uk police force has deployed them on the mainland. on the plus side, the spent rounds make a great chucking/chew toy for big dogs, my old dogs used to love them & they're pretty much indestructible Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dentonboy Posted April 16, 2018 Share Posted April 16, 2018 The good lady wife ran the Brighton marathon yesterday, and I was nipping between town, my brother's flat, and the seafront all day. Seeing three heavily armed - G36's with all the trimmings - officers in Churchill Square surprised me to the point of thinking it was a skirmish day, and seeing three more in the event village later on with a G36, GL and H&K 417 just seemed odd. The thought of 7.62's buzzing around in the event of 'an event' perturbed me, even though I think I'd prefer that to an unarmed 'Bobby' trying to stop a vehicle or Mumbai-type attack... ... Scary times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albiscuit Posted April 16, 2018 Share Posted April 16, 2018 Totally against more, kind of on the fence with the ones we have with the high profile feck ups and dubious evidence produced afterwards. Militarisation of civilian jobs is becoming a theme over the world and its a by-product of everything else happening. USA for example is ridiculous, pretty much ALL of their forces are militarised to the point the ATF, CIA and FBI have more combined firepower than most European countries. Not even including the SWAT, Local cops and other organisations its crazy!! Glad there are some really level and reasonable responses in this thread. Love how people know coppers and have asked and the responses are similar and in line with most people on here. No really off the wall right wing replies yet! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clumpyedge Posted April 17, 2018 Share Posted April 17, 2018 17 hours ago, Tackle said: Lol, Less lethal ?, obviously you've never seen baton rounds in use, they are highly unstable & uncontrollable, & always potentially lethal, hence why no uk police force has deployed them on the mainland. on the plus side, the spent rounds make a great chucking/chew toy for big dogs, my old dogs used to love them & they're pretty much indestructible I have seen them used... They are used in mainland UK arn't they? pretty much every police documentary going shows armed units having them in their kit? or am i just being naive? 18 hours ago, Countryman said: Pepper Spray is a prohibited weapon in the Firearms Act. You would face proscecution as a firearm. Potentially a mandatory 5 year sentence. Where do batons fit into the weapons act? just curious as while I dont agree with all police carrying guns the majority do carry something that could cause harm and potentially death if they aren't handled correctly (taser/spray/baton) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommikka Posted April 17, 2018 Share Posted April 17, 2018 1 hour ago, clumpyedge said: I have seen them used... They are used in mainland UK arn't they? pretty much every police documentary going shows armed units having them in their kit? or am i just being naive? Where do batons fit into the weapons act? just curious as while I dont agree with all police carrying guns the majority do carry something that could cause harm and potentially death if they aren't handled correctly (taser/spray/baton) Baton rounds have been approved for use on mainland UK, and I believe have been used at least once other than the obvious NI use A baton round would be a projectile and it’s launcher a firearm. Theoretically it may be possible to get licenced for one, but unless you’re issued it in the army or police it’s not going to happen. An extendable baton etc is pretty much just a special stick, not necessarily illegal to own a truncheon or baton, but if possessed for self Defence etc it is a weapon, and other than NI self Defence is not justification for possessing a weapon. With the police I’m happy with the current situation - armed response teams, plus approved trained officers that can sign out a weapon when required. Then in specific locations and situations having armed police around I am familiar with being around weapons from my job. I daily go through armed security and am used to it at work or in central London, key locations etc without paying any particular attend but I will notice arms on the street when it’s not the norm. I’m not intimidated by the armed officer, but it does raise my awareness as there must be a reason for it Odd occasions where I have particularly noticed are as a school kid at the Eiffel Tower noticing the abundance of armed police, getting stopped at an armed roadblock in the south of France in the early hours with my heart beating then just getting breathalised, going to work for a few months with an LSW hanging in my car window while my pass was checked, and a poser in mirrored shades slapping his brand new MP7 in my face when he learnt across me to the driver - I gave him a few choice words Its no longer the old days with my rose tinted glasses when I would take the shortcut to school across Woolwich parade square with a squadron on either end with just pick axe handle s giving me dirty looks However I’m happy with the current balance and each force prioritizing the situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AshOnSnow Posted April 17, 2018 Share Posted April 17, 2018 I think there needs to be far more armed police units in general, and much better organised, but as far as arming all officers as standard, I would say no. Certain things need to change though. It was good thinking for the BTP officers to have suppressors as standard, but I can’t imagine an LMT Defender with a 14.5” barrel, plus a suppressor on the end, can be that maneouvreable inside a packed train. Have seen HK417s in town and I don’t like the idea of behind whoever is shot at with one of those. Also there doesn’t seem to be any consistency and a lot of red tape - saw footage of an armed response unit be called and was 30 minutes away. There by chance happened to be another ARV drive past and stop, but they weren’t the specific unit authorised for that specific call because of something to do with some ammunition they were carrying which was softpoint instead of FMJ or something like that, so they just had to drive on and leave the regular officers on their own for half an hour waiting. It’s the little things like that that make me scream “WHY?! JUST CUT THE S***!” 2 hours ago, steakandpotato said: My missus went on a firearms range with me and it spooked her to fuck My mum went on a shooting range, changed from “guns are scary” to “look at me!” peppering the backstop with an MP5 on full auto Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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