Doing our bit for the environment and the argument for bio BBs

[AshOnSnow]

3 hours ago, clumpyedge said:

Playing devils advocate...

 

By this reasoning

• Air rifles should be made to use something that degrades - lots of people use pellet traps for target shooting
• Shotgun cartridge wads - similar boat as airsoft BBs, and now you can get dickwads.
• Shotgun clays - there are lots of biodegradable clay options
• Fishing equipment - floats etc - people are starting to turn towards cork floats now over styrofoam
• Airsoft pyro - fuses/pin pulls - you're generally not going to spread 2,000 of these over the course of a game 
• Golf balls - I'm no golfer, but I always understood that the point of golf was to to get the ball into the hole, then go and get it. Not just whack them into the trees. And driving ranges always collect up all the balls.

The list could be almost endless of things that don't get cleared up from recreational sports. I really don't see anyone making much headway in making bio BBs mandated especially when they are confined to a relitively small area compared to commercial waste streams and things like landfill, fly tipping etc.

 

 

[Lozart]

Cattle produce more greenhouse gases than all the cars, boats and planes in the world. Is that a reason to not bother making those vehicles more fuel efficient and environmentally friendly? Of course not. The same way that just because BB's left in the woods is only a tiny fraction of the plastic waste we produce is no reason to not try and use something biodegradable. The bigger issue for us is that the BioBBs on the market at the minute (with the possible exception of those mentioned above) tend to be hygroscopic and swell in storage if exposed to damp.

 

[LightningCh]

IMO, Unless every country swaps to bio, what difference will we make?

Like that's the most half bothered way to say it, but seriously speaking.

 

Without the reliability of plastic, the bio bbs will not pick up demand on the market to make them worth switching to from a manufacturers point of view.

 

If the UK backs out of plastic bbs, the manufacturers will turn elsewhere to sell them, and just keep giving us the bad quality of bio bbs.

How do you even enforce the rule anyway??

 

Marshals looking and taking a handful of bbs off every player at every game to dump them in hot water to test? Maybe my first 100 are bios and the rest are imported cheap plastic? Spot checking at lunch as well?

Bios won't break down overnight, (how do you know who shot them anyway after they have left the mag?)

How long til people start buying cheap plastic bb bottles and just relabelling them as "bio"

You wouldn't find out for years...

 

This entire situation would literally be a "honour" problem again similar to the "call your hits" issues.

Like I said, without the entire world and all manufacturers backing this notion, it's not going to change.

[proffrink]

7 minutes ago, LightningCh said:

IMO, Unless every country swaps to bio, what difference will we make?

Like that's the most half bothered way to say it, but seriously speaking.

Not that I necessarily disagree with the premise, but this sort of argument is a good excuse to never do anything useful.

[LightningCh]

Just now, proffrink said:

Not that I necessarily disagree with the premise, but this sort of argument is a good excuse to never do anything useful.

The thing is though, it's a good excuse for a reason lol.
 

I'm a heavy recycling fan, and I do everything I can to save electricity and all that good stuff, purely because it feels good.

I for one would 100% switch to bios if they could match what we get from plastic bbs.

 

But without manufacturers support, it really won't matter what we do to try and help the environment in this case, because like I say, they will just look elsewhere to sell their cheap stuff and leave us with the expensive stuff and then suddenly bios don't seem like a good idea to the consumers.

I know I personally don't feel good after spending upshot of £15 on bbs that aren't as reliable as their £10 counterparts, Also the fact that then I have to pretty much use them within a few game days because their shelf life is lacking. "I am british and I like to save money damn it"

 

Being Eco-Friendly, and making the changes to Eco-Friendly is easy at the individual level

Making Eco-Friendly changes to an industry, and global sport though, takes a lot more than a few countries saying "we don't want your non Eco-Friendly stuff."

 

Too be brutally honest, I don't see why manufacturers don't just rip down all plastic bbs and force everyone into using bios (but there must be a reason right?)... That would be a more feasible choice than having the consumers change sides.

 

Yes I'm awake im contradictory in this reply, but that's my honest thoughts on it, Good motive, one that's easy to get behind... but lacks the power it needs to create change.

[xWebster]

20 minutes ago, LightningCh said:

IMO, Unless every country swaps to bio, what difference will we make?

You've got to start somewhere though?

 

if they were same price and like for like quality with regular bb's I wouldn't have a problem using them, I've never felt I get the same consistency out of them though.

Might just be a placebo but hey ho.

[LightningCh]

1 minute ago, xWebster said:

You've got to start somewhere though?

 

if they were same price and like for like quality with regular bb's I wouldn't have a problem using them, I've never felt I get the same consistency out of them though.

Might just be a placebo but hey ho.

 

True... You do have to start somewhere... But IMO, we just won't have the power to drive the change needed. We switch, manufacturers won't.

I personally, will not be sacrificing my money in the expense of bio bbs purely to gain the feeling of doing good.

 

If manufacturers can make bio bbs that are equivalent to plastic (or like I said, just rip down all plastic bbs) people will be more eager (or forced) to change, but for now, people will keep buying cheap stuff because it's cheap lol. 

[Tommikka]

There are things that can be done, but it’s responsible use that is required.

 

Plastic isn’t necessarily the demon it is reported to be.  On overall resources plastics can be very efficient, if you take the resources to make x number of plastic bags to x number of paper bags - or even bags for life.  When we had carrier bags as a matter of routine Tesco’s brought in bio-degradable bags so that they would disintegrate over time - but then people complained because they were still reusing the bags

We now have bags for life littering the streets, or being used once and then used as a bin bag

 

Use and reuse then you’re getting the value out of the resources

 

With power we still use the worlds resources and the cleanest power is available for nuclear energy, it has a long life but can be managed and is sustainable 

 

The ‘green’ world is led by commerce, and private enterprise making the most of subsidies 

I had a few green visits in one of my old jobs and it got pretty depressing about the better things for the environment being trumped by the commercially viable.  Bristol had a ‘green’ incinerator system paid for by the council but they couldn’t afford to use it.  We raised the awkward question as to why this green incinerator which took in waste and sent out electricity, heating and sold fine dust to construction, but next door the old dirty incinerator was spewing smoke with a queue of council bIn lorries. The answer was that the company ‘trialling’ it on behalf of the council was raking in the profit with hospital waste, police evidence destruction (after the cases - porn, drugs, weapons etc) and industrial waste 

The capacity was fully taken and everyone was paying for the privilege 

The company closed when the trial ended - and moved on into other ‘green’ companies to take other subsidies

 

Trying to do something is a good thing, and it’s the title things that count but second thoughts do need to be considered 

 

 

 

[Rogerborg]

1 hour ago, LightningCh said:

IMO, Unless every country swaps to bio, what difference will we make?

 

Think global, act local.

 

I'm far from being an ecomentalist, but I can see the merit in keeping my (literal) own neck of the woods clear.

 

However, I'm also lazy and a cheapskate.  I'm not chasing after hard-to-get BBs, or using ones that don't function well, and the ballpark price appears to be £15 per kg for G&G 0.25g ecoballs, vs about £9 for non-bios (ASG / Ares).

 

Hmm, GunFire will supply Rockets 0.25g bios for £8.36 per kilo, although then you're getting into "But aaaaaare they?" territory.

 

Still, it's given me something to think about, and I expect we will all end up using ecoballs sooner or later.

[Markuz]

I'm also more than happy to spend a little more on Bio BB's. I'm mates with Andy so we have chipped in together. If people share a bulk order you can get them as cheaply as regular BBs so its a win win situation.

 

It's like every 'environmentally friendlier' choice we make, the little changes all add up. I recently played a site that allowed Bio only, I have no problem with paying for a bag on the day. But now with a bulk order I'm set for about 2 years. It's about doing something good, the feeling good bit is a bonus.

 

If you want to go bio great, if you don't that's fine too. Everything we do in life impacts the environment and I'm sure in some way many of us try to reduce our impact somehow and that's what makes a difference.

[Rogerborg]

12 hours ago, Markuz said:

But now with a bulk order I'm set for about 2 years.

 

I'd have thought biodegradable BBs would have a fairly limited shelf life.  Have I thought wrong?

[jcheeseright]

Green devil Bo BBs are harder and more reliable than Blasters for me.  There’s a reason most systema PTW users in the U.K. use them and they’re recommended as the best BB to use by Tackleberry (basically the only PTW tech in the world who is worth using, systema ask him for his recommendations on how to improve their platform). 

 

The argument about ‘no one else is going to do it, so why should we’ holds no water at all. That’s like saying if you’re going to crash your car don’t bother hitting the brakes to slow down the impact, since it’s going to happen anyway. 

 

If even 1% of the population of the world stopped their polluting behaviour there would be 1% less pollution, it’s a process not an overnight fix.  

 

Littering the countryside with one use plastic BBs because you’re too cheap to pay an extra couple of quid for decent bios is utterly irresponsible, you might as well just empty a big bag of plastic water bottles onto the site every time you play. 

 

Plastics arent the problem, plastic WASTE is the problem, one use plastics are almost entirely unnecessary in most situations. As ammunition for an Airsoft gun there is a viable alternative which is biodegradable BBs.

[jcheeseright]

Just now, Rogerborg said:

 

I'd have thought biodegradable BBs would have a fairly limited shelf life.  Have I thought wrong?

 

Decent ones are generally packaged in a clean dry environment and won’t degrade in the bag so long as they’re kept dry and out of direct sunlight. 

[AshOnSnow]

Pretty shocked at some of the responses on this thread, not gonna lie.

[Gepard]

4 minutes ago, AshOnSnow said:

Pretty shocked at some of the responses on this thread, not gonna lie.

Very insightful though

[gasman]

Andy you are so right we should all insist on bio bbs a shop I was in yesterday in Stevenage told me it did not stock Bio bbs as they fouled the gun barrels compared to plastic which did not.

[AndyDynamic]

3 hours ago, gasman said:

Andy you are so right we should all insist on bio bbs a shop I was in yesterday in Stevenage told me it did not stock Bio bbs as they fouled the gun barrels compared to plastic which did not.

 

This can be true as some makes of Bio BB leave a chalk style residue due to the coating, I was aware of this before we bought some.

 

Easy solution? Clean your barrel after every game day and develop a habit of caring for your equipment. Then your kit will last longer and work better.

[Rogerborg]

3 hours ago, AshOnSnow said:

Pretty shocked at some of the responses on this thread, not gonna lie.

 

Which way though?  I'm shocked that I've actually been persuaded by reasoned arguments and am changing my next order to include (ostensibly) biodegredable BBs now!

[Tiercel]

5 hours ago, Rogerborg said:

 

I'd have thought biodegradable BBs would have a fairly limited shelf life.  Have I thought wrong?

 

 

Back when I first started airsofting many moons ago, the woodland site I played at enforced bio BBs only to the point where you could only use BBs bought on site. Obviously this was difficult to enforce, but this is an honour based sport I suppose, so I believe most people probably used them.  The ones the site sold were the above mentioned Green Devils, and they were ok I guess? I only ever used them in rental guns, and my own budget beginner guns with no aftermarket parts and sloppy Chinese child labour factory tolerances. Which they still caused an occasional jam in. They take in some moisture from the atmosphere and can swell ever so slightly if stored for long periods of time. Id be reluctant to try them in my custom built guns with extreme tightbore barrels etc. We were told the Green Devils took on average 4-7 years to biodegrade once they were exposed to moisture and bacteria in the soil, temperature/rainfall dependant. 

 

My problem with them was they were hella expensive, easily double the price of regular BBs and then some. And I was a trigger happy little newbie. I loved my hicaps and would easily burn through 2-3 bags of 3000 bbs a day. Nowadays this wouldnt be a problem, my most recent bottle of 5000 ASG blasters has lasted me about 7 months so far  I dont even remember the last time I switched any of my guns to full auto. 

 

They also shatter a lot easier than plastic BBs and this causes problems for people who wear mesh eye protection, little bits of waxy resin grit in your eyes is no fun. 

[AshOnSnow]

59 minutes ago, Rogerborg said:

 

Which way though?  I'm shocked that I've actually been persuaded by reasoned arguments and am changing my next order to include (ostensibly) biodegredable BBs now!

 

The “well nobody else does so why should I bother?” mentality

[proffrink]

Bio BBs are now much better than they used to be 5 or so years ago. There's basically a complete absence of the couple of brands that 'shattered' and were banned, and even up to .30 you can get reliable ones that'll even work in a gun that needs very hard BBs like some of the GBBRs and mechanical HPA guns. The issue is still cost for many and availability for some. I for one really like the Green Devil BBs but they only do two manufacturing runs a year and importing them is expensive. They did just move production out of the UK to mainland Europe to hopefully they new facility can keep up with demand enough for them to appear on shelves.

 

Really the thing that gets people to switch of course is sites requiring bio BBs (of which a few of the woodland ones have done for nearly a decade now).

[LightningCh]

As said before, I'm contradictory in this thread to myself but I have my reasons.

I do not see a point on the individual level to switching unless manufacturers start to switch (even if every UK site switches, manufacturers will not change their current ways because we are not the largest market for airsoft... If America changes then I imagine bios would be the norm everywhere pretty quick.)

BUT

As "the next generation" I want to be able to use everything I can to protect what we have (let's be honest, we have wrecked a lot of the ecosystem already)

BUT
As an apprentice earning pitiful amounts of money, in order to fund my hobby i will use the cheaper and more viable option.
I'm on £3.50 an hour, trying to just get by in a tanking economy with a ridiculous housing market.... Do I really want to spend loads of money on the consumables behind the sport? no. not really. 1 time use plastic or bio, I'm going to buy the cheap stuff. (I would say I will get a raise soon, but that's unlikely, even then I'd only be earning £7/hour at most)

As such, I'm not trigger happy either (My most amount of bbs fired in 1 single day of airsoft to date is roughly 500, and that was CQB).

 

But anyway, that's besides the point.
We might as well turn this thread into something that can be read later and what we see isn't "the idea is stupid, no its not" debate

 

So instead of just the opinions... and the normal arguments for and against.
Lets actually look at some comparisons

How about we use this thread to post up bb brands, quantities, prices per bag/bottle etc, maybe even price per individual bb.

Then at least we can let people decide what bbs to buy and save us all from arguing further lol...

 

For example, this bio bb bag on amazon here.

Brand: BB King? Can't quite tell from the images

Type: Bio

Weight: 0.25

Price: 12.90

Quantity: 4000
Individual bb price: 0.003225

Link: https://www.amazon.co.uk/quality-Airsoft-0-25g-Premium-balls/dp/B005447A6E/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1518721482&sr=8-6&keywords=bio+bbs

Other comments: I have no idea about this brand, whether they swell easily, whether they are nicely finished, anything like that, as far as bios go I have no idea lol.

 

Example for Plastics from Defcon airsoft

Brand: RZR

Type: Plastic

Weight: 0.25

Price: £8.99

Quantity: 3300
Individual bb price: 0.00272424 recurring

Link: https://www.defconairsoft.co.uk/product/nuprol-rzr-3300rnd-0-25g-bbs/

Other comments: These have been reliable so far, nice polish, and have been generally good for use.

 

Now I've literally just grabbed the first bio bb bag off amazon for the example, but from that we can see that the cost is actually very similar... Just it's the other factors that can make or break the choice between them.

[Rogerborg]

2 hours ago, AshOnSnow said:

The “well nobody else does so why should I bother?” mentality

 

There's a certain pragmatism about it.  If you're the only player using ecoballs on a site then it's still going to be covered in a layer of deathballs.

 

Which strengthens the argument for sites mandating it.

[jcheeseright]

the argument that there’s no point buying bios because the manufacturers will continue to make plastics anyway is kinda daft... of course they’ll make plastics if everyone keeps buying them! Buy more bio BBs and manufacturers will MAKE more bio BBs. 

[LightningCh]

The only issue with "buying BIOS to make manufacturers change" is that it needs a rather large market shift towards BIOS for a change in manufacturing. Now lets be honest, BIOS have a similar reputation in the community to CYMA for guns (most are rubbish and not worth the money kind of rep) 

 

But instead of calling out daft arguments, just research alongside me and bust what myths there may be (bad shelf life, expensive, not really bio, etc.) 

 

What is the actual point of keeping on the opinions and such when the issue with BIOS is they have a bad rep? Prove the reputation wrong and you will sway more people into buying.

Calling people wrong doesn't change their opinion lol.