'DMR' fps question

[The_Knights_of_Nert]

One of our guys has recently brought a GR25 (upgraded with all the bells and whistles)...

How come there is such a variance for sites and fps? Some sites keep it 350fps in line with full auto, some set it to 400, and others to 425, similar rules for bolt action being 400-500fps. 

 

Obviously some sites are CQB but we're talking about woodland sites where MEDs would be in place. 

Is there a limit where they wouldn't be viable? i.e. If you had two identical guns one at 400fps and one at 420fps, is there going to be really much noticeable difference?  I understand fps isn't the be all and end all, but it seems to be some sort of measurable standard based on energy. 

I couldn't find this question anywhere but if it is here please link it. 

Cheers. 

[Lozart]

20fps would make naff all difference. There is some merit to applying DMR/sniper rifle principles to a standard 350FPS gun in so much as you can get better accuracy and range but not amazing accuracy and range but you still retain the ability to use auto if you needed to.

 

Sites that set AEGs to 350 and DMRs at 400 aren't really giving you much of an advantage. Getting closer to the BASR velocities will help but then if you're trying to keep it sort of realistic then a DMR in theory would sacrifice some range for the ability to get a quicker second shot on target than a bolt action. Unfortunately the scope for making a differentiation between a standard AEG at 350 and a BASR at 450-500 doesn't really leave much noticeable middle ground for a DMR which is why many people dismiss them as pointless in any real sense. Personally I like the concept of an accurised semi auto at a slightly higher FPS.

[AshOnSnow]

I like the DMR concept, and all the sites I play at allow a DMR up to 500fps with a 20m MED - same rules as sniper. I think if a site limits you to less than 450fps, then you may as well just run a regular old 350fps AEG. When I first came to this forum I was surprised by the amount of DMR hate, but I never realised that some sites are so restrictive with them. Maybe if everywhere practical allowed the high limits that my sites do, there wouldn't be such a negative view about them.

[Samurai]

With those trigger happy 500 fps "DMs" it is very dangerous.

I got shot in the back with 3 quick dmr shots inside a building from about 5m and it took more than 8 months for the marks to disappear. Yes, that c*nt disregarded MED, but heavy BBs at 20m with 500 fps+joule creep can draw blood easily.

I wouldn't allow that high output unless the gun is locked to 1shot / sec with electronics. Even then, 30m MED as for bolties.

[Rogerborg]

Necro time.  Why, yes, I did use the search.

 

On 24/03/2017 at 02:30, AshOnSnow said:

all the sites I play at allow a DMR up to 500fps with a 20m MED - same rules as sniper. I think if a site limits you to less than 450fps, then you may as well just run a regular old 350fps AEG.

 

Counterpoint: my soon-to-be-open local site is proposing 500fps for any non-auto gun, with a 30m MED.  My feelings on that are that I might as well sell my bolt action and buy an M150 AEG spring.

 

Further, I expect that any MED that's respected in the heat of pewing will be more like 20m, or 10m, if that; and that the 1-shot-in-the-air-at-a-time that was added as a followup comment rather than part of the published site rules will become "only as quick as I can pull the trigger, and strictly no quicker" for DMR users.

 

Why, yes, I am saltier than a pork rind wrapped in anchovies, but making no fps distinction between semi-auto AEGs and bolt actions is unfathomable.

[AshOnSnow]

1 hour ago, Rogerborg said:

Necro time.  Why, yes, I did use the search.

 

 

Counterpoint: my soon-to-be-open local site is proposing 500fps for any non-auto gun, with a 30m MED.  My feelings on that are that I might as well sell my bolt action and buy an M150 AEG spring.

 

Further, I expect that any MED that's respected in the heat of pewing will be more like 20m, or 10m, if that; and that the 1-shot-in-the-air-at-a-time that was added as a followup comment rather than part of the published site rules will become "only as quick as I can pull the trigger, and strictly no quicker" for DMR users.

 

Why, yes, I am saltier than a pork rind wrapped in anchovies, but making no fps distinction between semi-auto AEGs and bolt actions is unfathomable.

 

Depends on how well the site is run. I've not had nor seen any issue with DMR users spamming the trigger at close distances at any of my sites.

[Rogerborg]

True, but it's tough to enforce.  For one thing, just spotting what's being operated as DMR and what's not is the first challenge for marshals: plenty of folk run scopes on long auto-AEGs.

 

My main sulk though is about it making bolt actions pointless.  There's no inherent accuracy advantage to a bolt action, and magazine capacity and RoF is in favour of the DMR. Even if DMR users limit themselves to one-in-flight and you assume a bolt action user who can match that, being able to fire repeatedly with just a finger motion without disturbing aim or making a movement gives the DMR a big advantage.

 

I guess we'll see how it plays out in practice, but I suspect it'll be a real labour of love to use a bolt action under those conditions.

[AshOnSnow]

14 minutes ago, Rogerborg said:

True, but it's tough to enforce.  For one thing, just spotting what's being operated as DMR and what's not is the first challenge for marshals: plenty of folk run scopes on long auto-AEGs.

 

My main sulk though is about it making bolt actions pointless.  There's no inherent accuracy advantage to a bolt action, and magazine capacity and RoF is in favour of the DMR. Even if DMR users limit themselves to one-in-flight and you assume a bolt action user who can match that, being able to fire repeatedly with just a finger motion without disturbing aim or making a movement gives the DMR a big advantage.

 

I guess we'll see how it plays out in practice, but I suspect it'll be a real labour of love to use a bolt action under those conditions.

I don’t see why it would be a sulk at all. What’s different to two marksmen sitting side by side, one with an AWM, the other with an M82? Or a .308 R700 and an L129A1? You don’t see the bloke with the AWM complaining to the range controller that “he can shoot faster than me he shouldn’t be allowed on a range”. What’s next? Protesting 11.1V batteries? Glock 18Cs?

[Arwen]

I think I am sitting in the "DMR's are pointless" camp right now... 

My Falkor Recce frequently gets bundled in with the DMR's. When infact, it is not. It's just a 350fps AEG with a long barrel and scope (and the range is now sitting around 70m ). I purposely kept it to AEG fps as I suck at judging distances when playing, so did not want to be bothered with MEDs. 

 

However, DMR's at my local are allowed up to 425fps the a med of 25m. Which is a noticeable increase when you get hit by one. But questionable if it improves range/accuracy by much. (all depends on the gun really). During the briefing people are told not to spam the trigger if they are using a DMR, with the advise to watch you shot land before you shoot again. 

 

Bolt action Snipers are the usual 500fps and 25m med.

 

In practise, I am not sure how many DMR users actually stick to the shoot-land-shoot advice. Mostly because this is very hard to "police" for anyone evolved, never mind the marshals. At my local there are a number of 350fps aeg's that shoot a good range, and thanks to mosfets, can shoot an incredible RoF. 

This presents the problem, that aeg's are not told to not spam the trigger... 

So indoors (where DMRs/Bolt actions are not allowed) you can still get stuck at bottle necks due to a couple of people trigger-spam-shooting (in single shot - as required) at the only opening. Which stops the attacking team from moving. 

 

You get the same scenario when trying to exit a building, yes this time aegs are technically allowed full auto so it is to be more expected. However, I've seen a number of guns that can shoot quicker on single shot than some shoot on full auto. 

 

So to end my ramble... DMR's and Snipers should in my mind be in the same category. It is the players choice what system they want to use. 
What I would like to see is a restriction on RoF in general. AEG's can now shoot bb's out like a laser if you want them too... single shot or full auto makes no real difference. 

[Rogerborg]

55 minutes ago, AshOnSnow said:

You don’t see the bloke with the AWM complaining to the range controller that “he can shoot faster than me he shouldn’t be allowed on a range”

 

No, I don't, since we're not actually on a range shooting real steel.

 

I'm thinking more of two airsoft players sitting 80m apart, pewing at each other with toys in a game with arbitrary rules designed to allow everyone to have fun while encouraging a variety of toy guns and play styles.

 

One with a 2.32J DMR capable of pewing as fast as the user can twitch his trigger finger without being caught "one BB in flight" with a tiny finger motion, versus one with a 2.32J bolt action gun that requires an arm motion and losing aim between each shot.

 

Then add in that the DMR can be packing maybe 4 times as much ammo per magazine.

 

Why on earth would you choose to use the bolt action?

[Arwen]

9 minutes ago, Rogerborg said:

Why on earth would you choose to use the bolt action?

 

Why indeed. 

 

 

Why do some folk play with shot guns so much? why do some only run with pistols. Why do some play with hi-caps and some with low-caps. 

It's all about choice and style of play. 

 

</devil's advocate>

[Rogerborg]

13 minutes ago, Arwen said:

Why do some folk play with shot guns so much?

 

For the tactile satisfaction that comes from a enhanced physical involvement with the gu- DAMMIT.

 

Shotguns can pew thrice with one trigger pull, pistols are much handier, low-cap users wear polyester and collect train numbers.

 

I don't anticipate having a whole heap of fun playing BASR against 500fps DMRs.  For that matter, I'm not sure regular AEGs are going to love it much either.  I could be wrong about that, it did happen once before.  1988, I think it was.

[AshOnSnow]

1 hour ago, Rogerborg said:

 

No, I don't, since we're not actually on a range shooting real steel.

 

I'm thinking more of two airsoft players sitting 80m apart, pewing at each other with toys in a game with arbitrary rules designed to allow everyone to have fun while encouraging a variety of toy guns and play styles.

 

One with a 2.32J DMR capable of pewing as fast as the user can twitch his trigger finger without being caught "one BB in flight" with a tiny finger motion, versus one with a 2.32J bolt action gun that requires an arm motion and losing aim between each shot.

 

Then add in that the DMR can be packing maybe 4 times as much ammo per magazine

Why on earth would you choose to use the bolt action?

 

Well, I’m a big advocate of the 500fps DMR. If I had my way, I’d get rid of the one shot per second or one B.B. in flight at a time rules.

[Guyver1]

Allowed up to 500fps with DMRs at LandWarrior same 25m MED as Bolties and you have to have a side arm.

 

There are rules in place about spamming the trigger (1 shot in 3 seconds) and DMRs have a ring of "red tape" on the barrel to help Marshals see who has one.

 

Advantages of a DMR i see are not having to take your scope/eye of the target to reload, being able to engage targets rapidly, think three guys in a row, pew, pew,pew, rather than pew, rack bolt, pew, rack bolt,pew.

 

Disadvantages, DMRs tend to be a bit heavier than Bolties. Bolties are less expensive. Bolties are arguably more reliable (less working parts) and certainly easier to work on.

 

As long as your not ignoring MED (Bolties have same restriction ) and "being a D*ck" with trigger spam it's all good and as with most things in Airsoft "its all   about looking cool"  🙂

 

 

[Rogerborg]

1 hour ago, Guyver1 said:

There are rules in place about spamming the trigger (1 shot in 3 seconds) and DMRs have a ring of "red tape" on the barrel to help Marshals see who has one.

 

That makes sense.  Section 8 is one shot per two seconds, and 425fps.

 

I'm a little concerned that one-in-the-air was only mentioned as an afterthought when queried.  It might be one of these airsoft things that's assumed to be common knowledge, but if it's never actually said, how are players meant to actually know?  You'll have me diligently sticking to one-in-the-air, versus Cedric Von Spamsalot hair-triggering his 2.3J balls as quickly as he can, because he only read the rules and not the addenda and errata.

 

 

 

2 hours ago, AshOnSnow said:

Well, I’m a big advocate of the 500fps DMR. If I had my way, I’d get rid of the one shot per second or one B.B. in flight at a time rules.

 

I'm sure I'll come to agree if I end up owning one.

[Wo1f]

I’m a big advocate for high power DMR’s and under the right circumstances can be used to amazing effect. Over all of the time I’ve been playing though, the amount of dmr’s ive seen that I’d actually consider being one is low. Most people put a big spring in and restrict it to semi and to me you’re just hindering yourself for very little gain. 

 

Proper dmrs are built like snipers are and it’s a role that you adopt. I’m slightly different than most because I run a gas DMR, but when I play I fire the first shot and watch where it goes. Adjust and take a second and sometimes 3rd shot. If I’ve not hit what I’m aiming at knowing my gun’s capabilities, then I’m probably never going to and all I’m doing is giving my position away. So it’s either move or wait for the enemy to come closer.

 

On top of that, I need to have faith In my sidearm because it’s no longer just there for cool points. It needs to have the range and accuracy to hold its own against anything else under 25m. 

 

Like sniping, it’s hard and it’s not for everyone but I love it. 

[Arwen]

2 hours ago, Guyver1 said:

DMRs have a ring of "red tape" on the barrel to help Marshals see who has one.

I really like this! 👍

[Rogerborg]

31 minutes ago, Wo1f said:

I’m a big advocate for high power DMRs

 

But can you appreciate why BASR players might not be?

 

At the same fps, I doubt I can beat you, so I might end up joining you.

[Wo1f]

Just now, Rogerborg said:

 

But can you appreciate why BASR players might not be?

 

At the same fps, I doubt I can beat you, so I might end up joining you.

I completely agree. To clarify, I don’t think they should be the same FPS as a boltie. 

 

In my ideal world it would be 450-475 for DMR and 500-550 for bolt action 

 

where I play is 350 auto, 400 DMR, 500 sniper. Considering they have the same MED, I’d rather it was 450. That being said.. at 392fps my Mws throws BB’s further than 99% of the field anyway. 

[Nick G]

550 for bolt action is well beyond the UK legal limit for output which IIRC is about 2.4 joules or around 515 fps 

[Tiercel]

DMRs always seem to be a bit of a grey area, I love the idea and role of DMR, I very very rarely switch any of my guns to full auto. I wish I could have a dedicated DMR however the few sites I play at all have varying rules ranging from 450fps to flat out banning them. So Id need a seperate DMR for each site I play at, which would get very expensive very fast. So I just settle for a 350FPS woodland rifle build and a 4x ACOG on it to do the same job and my BASR for the rest, but playing with the BASR as a squad marksman running around with my team giving them some extra range rather than hiding in a bush like a anorak wearing Twitcher

[E21A]

1 hour ago, Tiercel said:

DMRs always seem to be a bit of a grey area, I love the idea and role of DMR, I very very rarely switch any of my guns to full auto. I wish I could have a dedicated DMR however the few sites I play at all have varying rules ranging from 450fps to flat out banning them. So Id need a seperate DMR for each site I play at, which would get very expensive very fast. So I just settle for a 350FPS woodland rifle build and a 4x ACOG on it to do the same job and my BASR for the rest, but playing with the BASR as a squad marksman running around with my team giving them some extra range rather than hiding in a bush like a anorak wearing Twitcher

 

Pick something with a quick change spring 😉

[Rogerborg]

1 hour ago, Nick G said:

550 for bolt action is well beyond the UK legal limit for output which IIRC is about 2.4 joules or around 515 fps

 

2.5J for semi-auto and manual, which is about 520fps with 0.2g.  Except that the limit is on the gun, not the ammo:  "is not capable of discharging a missile (of any kind) with kinetic energy at the muzzle of the weapon that exceeds [2.5J, or 1.3J for full auto]"

 

Strictly speaking, if an airsoft gun is capable of pewing a steel BB at over the limit, even if it wrecks the rubber, then it's not an airsoft gun.  Take that, Joule Creeps.