BB weight

[EuanM9105]

What weight would be recommended for a G&G SR-25 because I don't want to buy 0.2 and there useless or 0.3 and are too heavy for the m100 spring

[Monty]

.25g's?

[Airsoft_Mr B]

They're*

I'd try some 0.25s, if they aren't brilliant, 0.28s.

[TacMaster]

If you really want to start using your SR-25 to it's full potential, open it's gearbox up/pay a tech to and start getting upgrade parts for it. An M120/M130 would be a good start, and you'll see immediate range benefits by using heavier BBs such as 0.30s, as they retain more kinetic energy through their flight than a 0.25g does.

Have a look at upgrade guides or ask around if you want to know how to get the best out of your SR-25, as without upgrades it's basically an inconveniently large assault rifle locked to semi

[GiantKiwi]

If you really want to start using your SR-25 to it's full potential, open it's gearbox up/pay a tech to and start getting upgrade parts for it. An M120/M130 would be a good start, and you'll see immediate range benefits by using heavier BBs such as 0.30s, as they retain more kinetic energy through their flight than a 0.25g does.

Have a look at upgrade guides or ask around if you want to know how to get the best out of your SR-25, as without upgrades it's basically an inconveniently large assault rifle locked to semi

 

Probably not a good idea for him to start upping the FPS with the current BS that Salmond is trying to push through the Scottish Parliament.

[JamesAirsofterAgent]

I've tried finding out in this forum, and by emailing pro airsoft supplies, but what would be the best pellets for the G&G combat machine cm16?

With some airsoft videos I've seen and stuff I've read up on I think some people use .23's and .25's in skirmishes.

[jcheeseright]

Never use anything lighter than .25g, regardless of the FPS of your gun.

[jcheeseright]

Only exception to that really is CQB where engagement distances are 30-40' and there's no wind. In that environment a .20 is largely similar to a .25 in performance but cheaper.

[Airsoft-Ed]

Or if you're running a support gun where a pot of ammo = 1 mag and lasts you a single game.

Then lighter ammo is a lot cheaper, and the volume of fire makes up for most of the disadvantages of having less accuracy and range... But it's mostly a cost issue lol

[BrightCandle]

0.25g makes a lot of accuracy difference for me in doors at just 10m when compared to 0.20g. 0.28g also makes even more difference. At some point the projectile gets too slow to be used effectively against moving targets, but the heavier BBs for me at least seem to be measurably more accurate.

[jcheeseright]

0.25g makes a lot of accuracy difference for me in doors at just 10m when compared to 0.20g. 0.28g also makes even more difference. At some point the projectile gets too slow to be used effectively against moving targets, but the heavier BBs for me at least seem to be measurably more accurate.

 

It's all in your head, the difference in time to target below 50' with a .20 and a .30 is very small fractions of a second:

 

[Ian_Gere]

I have to say I'm pretty impressed by the data James is quoting above, but I believe that the performance of your hop set up is key to matching those results. In my experience you can have to put the hop on so much to lift heavy BB's that you do not get the benefits of extra range, because the power is reduced. The best bet then is to experiment.

 

But an SR-25 really should be putting out enough power that 0.25g is the minimum weight to use. Still, just because an AEG looks like a DMR doesn't mean it has the internals to perform as one. If you don't want to up the power to 1.6-ish Joules, a DMR should still be consistently very close to your fav site's limit. Consistency can be increased by a better air seal, which also increases the power without changing the spring, and increases accuracy, since the BBs' trajectory will be more similar.

[Russe11]

If you play at Spartan, they are Bio only and you will have to buy from them anyway.

[jcheeseright]

I have to say I'm pretty impressed by the data James is quoting above, but I believe that the performance of your hop set up is key to matching those results. In my experience you can have to put the hop on so much to lift heavy BB's that you do not get the benefits of extra range, because the power is reduced. The best bet then is to experiment.

 

But an SR-25 really should be putting out enough power that 0.25g is the minimum weight to use. Still, just because an AEG looks like a DMR doesn't mean it has the internals to perform as one. If you don't want to up the power to 1.6-ish Joules, a DMR should still be consistently very close to your fav site's limit. Consistency can be increased by a better air seal, which also increases the power without changing the spring, and increases accuracy, since the BBs' trajectory will be more similar.

 

Those numbers are based on hop-up settings to provide a straight and level trajectory for as far as possible. The amount of hop-up required is largely irrelevant as the maths is based on the muzzle energy rather than the energy output of the spring. A gun which only requires one click of hop-up to lift a .25g BB with a muzzle velocity of 350fps is functionally identical to a gun that requires 10 clicks of hop-up to lift a .25g bb with a muzzle velocity of 350fps.

 

Only time the amount of hop needed would be relevant is if the experiments/models were done based on a gun which was chronod with hop-up off, a rule which I think when implemented is completely retarded!

[Richie Boyle]

the site i use is bio only too so i buy from them although they do offer both .20 or .30. i havent tried .30 but i am considering it for the G3 although i am not sure what kind of difference it will make at its current 270fps or after its upgraded to 330 fps

 

.20 will do for the pistols, especially the desert eagle (the only one with auto)

[M_P]

the site i use is bio only too so i buy from them although they do offer both .20 or .30. i havent tried .30 but i am considering it for the G3 although i am not sure what kind of difference it will make at its current 270fps or after its upgraded to 330 fps

 

.20 will do for the pistols, especially the desert eagle (the only one with auto)

.3s will be way too heavy at that FPS, stick the .2s, or pick up something like 25s online.

[JamesAirsofterAgent]

So are .20s ok at a woodland site or would .23/.25s be better??

[M_P]

.25s are better.

[jcheeseright]

So are .20s ok at a woodland site or would .23/.25s be better??

 

[Airsoft-Ed]

Writing this kinda turned into a more general rant than a reply... So yeah, just throwing it out there early so people aren't like, "What?"

One thing I've noticed about range, BB weight, barrel bore and hop up, is that a lot of the time, people will just swear by something based on one good experience. They'll never test it again, they'll never properly bench it against anything else, and they won't have the observational skill, or the time investment in the game, to actually notice minor changes in things under certain circumstances because they don't understand the science properly... Or they simply don't care.

A lot of the "OMGBESTGUNEVER" stories are essentially just 'victims' of a placebo effect, I've seen countless people showing off guns to people saying stuff like, "This has the best range ever" or "Here, want to use this for a game? It's flawless" when I've been standing over their shoulders, witnessing the untold levels of awful their gun is demonstrating.

So basically, it's all about getting your own guns, shooting to a point that you're content with. Those guys whose guns I saw were terrible, they were happy with them. They were totally fine with going into a game with something that in my opinion was too bad to be skirmished. Someone is always going to come along and chat shit without having 1/100th of a gram of sense in their heads. Someone on here might have been one of those guys. I didn't say, "No actually that's terrible, terrible performance". I just let them get on with it. But, I don't know who would see that gun performing like that and think it was amazing, and who would see it and think it was terrible, like I did.

As you're happy with it, who cares? You might think .25s perform better when a target is under 50 feet away, the science says there's little difference. You'll chalk it up to experience, people flinching when they're hit, that epic shot through a keyhole you were standing 15m back from, you could never have done that with .20s, and the guy would've just shrugged the hit off if it'd been anything under .25g.

That's fine, I do it too. Sometimes things might be better, scientifically, practically, theoretically, however-else...ally, but I don't care because I have my own beliefs. I refuse to believe widebore barrels make sense for example, but plenty of people are raving about them being the greatest thing for accuracy since rifling. I'm just not getting it, and I have yet to see first hand evidence. I think a lot of people who don't understand it, and haven't seen it either, are just taking people's word for it without waiting to see for themselves first.

If something works for you, and everything says it shouldn't... Maybe it is a placebo effect.

 

But... Placebos work.

 

Some other guy might have better range and accuracy because he did it all right, but your mentality, your belief that it works, might just align the stars and put you in a better position, you might be more tactically aware, you might be a better player. It's all in your head that the gun is better, but your experiences so far have made everything work. You're just playing for the fun, you aren't playing because you get kicks from the mind games, you just think guns are cool, or whatever.

If something works, it works. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and all that shit. I've have people use my pistol after showing me theirs, mine has had 3 times the range and they've just said, "Hmm, yeah, it's alright that". Are these people blind? Was their ego too damaged to comment what they really thought? Who knows? I just let people get on with it.

However! Nothing less than .25g...
.20s are for (exceptionally) poor people, support gunners, and people who just play to play, without caring how good their gun is in comparison to anyone else's.

Not sure what I was really getting at with any of that tbh, just started typing. Hey ho. Take from it what you will, hopefully I didn't subconsciously type out my allegiance to Hilter's ghost or anything.

[Ian_Gere]

 

Those numbers are based on hop-up settings to provide a straight and level trajectory for as far as possible. The amount of hop-up required is largely irrelevant as the maths is based on the muzzle energy rather than the energy output of the spring. A gun which only requires one click of hop-up to lift a .25g BB with a muzzle velocity of 350fps is functionally identical to a gun that requires 10 clicks of hop-up to lift a .25g bb with a muzzle velocity of 350fps.

 

Only time the amount of hop needed would be relevant is if the experiments/models were done based on a gun which was chronod with hop-up off, a rule which I think when implemented is completely retarded!

I don't think you and I are talking about the same thing. Fair enough, if your intention is to scientifically compare shots with equal muzzle energy so that the only variable is the BB weight, so for eg at 1.14J a 0.2g BB has a muzzle velocity of 350FPS and a 0.25g BB has 313FPS - but these are figures derived from maths. To actually achieve these equal muzzle energies/velocities you could not simply load different ammo into the same gun and set the hop, because in the real world applying more hop to lift a heavier BB reduces the muzzle velocity more than simply the change in weight would suggest. I doubt many people have ever thought much about this because we expect to lose velocity when we use heavier BB's; what drew my attention to it was fitting a Falcon 455x6.03mm TBB with the Dual Point hop rubber...

 

It really struggles to lift .25's, so when I slide enough hop on (it's an AK: no clicks) to get the best range possible with flatish trajectory, the result is 5-6m less than I can get firing 0.2's... (is this the dreaded one gun phenomena conflated erroneously with fairies at the bottom of the garden, et al, a la Ed's comment above perhaps... read on and decide for yourselves).

 

...which made me think the whole process through again - I had thought about it a bit back when we were considering the alleged phenomena of 'Joule creep'. TBH I can't remember the complex reasoning of the discussion, although it is somewhere within these hallowed pages, but i do remember thinking that it didn't matter anyway because of the way in which hop up works - basically it is a brake designed to fail: if the brake succeeded the BB would be stopped completely (and some hop units can do this, much to the annoyance of a steady stream of noobs whom we meet here at their wit's end), but by only partially succeeding the braking effect is applied to one side of the BB resulting in backspin - but here is the point:

 

braking occurs

...and more hop on equals more braking. I just did a quick test on my chrono to illustrate the point: the average of 10 shots with no hop firing 0.2's was 353.45FPS vs 321.27 with hop set for max range flat traj. It's dark so I can't see to set the hop with 0.25's (it was left on set for 0.2's) But you all know this. So why is it difficult to swallow that applying more hop to lift heavier BB's reduces the energy those BB's carry as momentum, over and above the velocity lost by a heavier object given a similar impetus?

 

There are other complicating factors also, such as how whatever imperfections there are in the air seal from piston head to barrel will behave differently under the changing pressure over the time it takes for the BB to exit the barrel and since this is different for different weights of BB, it is undoubtedly a factor*, just one which would need a pretty complex set up to measure. But hey, that just means that you really do need to experiment with your guns to find what works for you, as has been said.

 

*Simply changing the piston head to a dual O-ring type gives approx +20FPS / Modify Hybrid barrel & hop rubber combo can give +30FPS over and above whatever may be gained by changing a stock 6.08mm barrel to a 6.03mm TBB, so airseal and changes in its performance are significant.

 

But a blanket statement that 0.25's are better is not helpful. I agree that people do believe things which the evidence observed by someone else seems to disprove and otherwise sensible people have apparently witnessed evidence for things which just simply cannot be true** - maybe some of you remember the fad known as 'suckback' where it was believed by some that if you did not have sufficient air volume in your cylinder (because of vents) to make certain that the air was still expanding the whole time that the BB was travelling down the barrel, then in long barrelled AEG's when the piston was pulled back ready for the next shot the BB would be retarded by air being sucked back down the barrel. Well, you only have to work out the time the BB spends in the barrel compared to the cycle speed of the gearbox to know that this is impossible, but besides that, there are vents in the piston head which allow air to fill the cylinder from behind the piston head - but people wrote on forums and told me f2f that they had tested it with a chrono etc. You know what, I'm willing to believe that people would hallucinate better results with .25's because they believe they must be better in all circumstances.

 

There are different hardnesses of hop rubber: generally speaking the softer / lower the degree, the stickier the rubber and the stickier it is the less 'hop on' you need to lift any BB, but also the softer the faster they wear out, so if you have a high FPS gun you can use a harder rubber because you have power to spare, but this is also desirable because higher power guns wear their hop rubbers out faster. But most stock rubbers are made to work ok and last a fair while - a couple of years of average use, say once or twice a month skirmishing all day and a bit of plinking in between, and also bear in mind that, with the exception of Japanese guns, almost all AEG's are designed to be at least 25% more powerful than UK limits.

 

So going back to the beginning of this post, do you think that it is only funky hop rubbers such as Falcon Dual Point which can result in losing more power by putting enough hop on to lift .25g BB's than is made up for by additional range gained by conservation of momentum vs air resistance in denser BBs, or do you think that some guns downgraded to M100 springs with stock rubbers may suffer the same effect, bearing in mind that the difference or perhaps similar but not as extreme, so that what they gain from more weight is lost to additional braking? Perhaps you think as I do, that due to our UK FPS limits, if 0.23's were more easily available and cheaper, they would probably be a better choice than 0.2's or 0.25's for many UK guns, but in the absence of an overnight miracle, you should suck it an see...

 

**I wonder if you were referring to our conversation Ed when I said that I was getting 70m accurate for man sized target shots from my tac AK? I know. It sounds impossible, but I swear, @MCG The Gaol firing out of the window of 1 cell block, across the path through the main gates into the yard of the main block with the refectory etc in it, the entire length of that block to targets standing around believing they could not be hit by people 15-20m closer to them than I - not flat trajectory, but not walked onto target lobs either, aimed shots at an upward angle - approx 346-7FPS (using a Magic Box double O-ring piston head, lashings of CT-2 grease, unbranded ali O-ring nozzle, lonex hop unit, G&G green rubber, PTFE tape wrapped hop rubber, Madbull fishbone spacer, 6.04mm TBB (i had to downgrade the spring to some poxy shotgun spring i got in a job lot of parts because i was getting over 380 with an M100) and Blaster .25g BB's she died about 15mins from the end of the day grrrr - but she shall return weyhey!