Gun upgrade

[Callum861]

HI everyone 

Any advice is appreciated but I'm looking to upgrade my starting rifle a double bell scar L. I am looking to increase range and accuracy I have been looking around at hop up units and nubs and buckings but I'm unsure what ones to get. Dose it matter what parts I put in as when I look it says for different makes if that makes any sense it curently has a rotary hop up unit but not sure about everything els sorry sounds a bit random but again I appreciate any advise and thank you in advance 

[EDcase]

It should take standard Maple Leaf Hop rubbers.  (You don't need to change the hop unit itself)

I believe the Macaron is highly regarded and 60 degrees is best for 350fps.

[Rogerborg]

Ahoy, welcome, and yup, /thread, basically.  It's best not to change too many things at once, as then you'll never be sure what's helped, done nothing, or made it worse.

 

Maple Leaf Macaron 60 plus an "omega" style nub is my go-to.  I've messed around with flat hops, R-hops and S-hops but why bother when the Maple Leafs do such a good job?

 

This combination, although ak2m4 is off this week and not taking orders:

 

https://www.ak2m4.co.uk/internal-parts/hop-up-buckings-nubs/maple-leaf-macaron-60-nub

 

Opinions will vary and you'll see 50 suggested (especially in colder weather when the rubber will be harder) or 70 (from Johnny Abroadlander where it's scorchio). I've tried both without noticing much of a difference at UK power levels, so now just stick to 60.

 

While you've got the barrel out, give it a through clean through using a rod, cleaning patch and isopropanol or your solvent of choice.  You'd be amazed how much oil and grease some barrels ship with, and they can spunk more badness down there over time from whatever's coming out of the cylinder or magazine.

 

That'll help accuracy / consistency.  Ultimate range is determined by the muzzle energy, which is a different subject. But if you're getting anything between 1J - 1.13J using 0.28g BBs (or as heavy as your hop can lift and your wallet stand) then you'll be competitive with anyone else. It's rare that those last 2 or 3 metres of range really matter, compared to having correct and consistent hop applied. 

[Pseudotectonic]

below .35 ---> maple leaf macaron (or super macaron) + omega nub or similar

 

above .35 ---> maple leaf MR hop + omega nub or similar

[Skara]

Sort the air seal first to make it shoot consistently, then get a Super Macaron in either 60 or 70 degrees.

Don't forget a concave tensioner (Maple Leaf Omega or similar).

[Leo Greer]

On 12/01/2024 at 09:41, Rogerborg said:

 

Opinions will vary and you'll see 50 suggested (especially in colder weather when the rubber will be harder) or 70 (from Johnny Abroadlander where it's scorchio). I've tried both without noticing much of a difference at UK power levels, so now just stick to 60.

 

 

I totally agree with your advice here, but just had one comment. 😁 I'm obviously a Johnny Abroadlander from one of the most scorching areas of my country. I often play in heat that can exceed 110 deg. Fahrenheit or 43 deg. Celsius, and I prefer 50 deg. rubbers in all my "rifleman" builds. And for me this is 1.5J. I don't go higher until exceeding 1.8J or so. This is just my comment, do with it as you will!

[Rogerborg]

On 13/01/2024 at 10:58, Skara said:

70 degrees

 

2 hours ago, Leo Greer said:

50 deg

 

[Sewdhull]

My suggestion is to use what others use in a similar environment to you.

 

Temperature and humidity affect the bb to bucking interaction along with your hop set up at you need more hop effort to spin up heavier bbs. It's really complicated and  by trial and error ppl have found out what works well.

 

 

[Rogerborg]

7 minutes ago, Sewdhull said:

by trial and error ppl have found out what works well

 

I'd (genuinely) love to see a controlled test of various bucking in the same gun, on the same range, on the same day.  I've seen tests of flat versus R versus S, but not of Maple Leaf 50 vs 60 vs 70 versus Prommy versus whatever else is being pitched as the bestestest bucking ever by Skylar on Reddit this week.

[Sewdhull]

Yeah, i'd like that too, but most 'science' about airsoft completely misses the why.

 

I'm not sure anyone really knows the process of imparting back spin in airsoft, other than the bb goes through an unequally sticky hole and spins towards the sticky bit. It's quite a tricky puzzle to solve.

 

Friction on a material that deforms alot isn't as simple as otherwise.

 

Honestly tho, it's probably unnecessary for our toys, it does however allow companies to market all sorts of stuff so we get the 'best' things.

[Lozart]

12 hours ago, Sewdhull said:

. It's quite a tricky puzzle to solve.

 

 

 

It's really not. You've basically captured the essence of how it works in what you've said!

 

The different hardness of rubbers is akin to when Pirelli rock up to an F1 race weekend with a 3 out of 5 selection of tyres (rated as C1 to C5). On a given day at a particular track a race car will have a finite amount of grip on any one type of tyre so let's say that on this particular day with a track temperature of say 40C it's the C3 tyre that gives the best grip. For that same car at the same track with a lower track temperature then a softer tyre will be better (eg the C1) on a hotter day you'd need a harder rubber to get the same grip (eg C5) because the hotter conditions will make the rubber deform more for a given speed/turning force.

 

The same is true for hop rubbers. On an average UK day a 60 degree rubber in a 350FPS gun firing a 0.28 bb will give good hop. In the same gun with the same power and same BBs in a winter game in Norway it won't give enough so you need a softer rubber. Likewise, take the same gun to a summer game in Florida and you'll need a harder rubber.

 

The tricky part is accounting for the variables in the gun itself - spring rate consistency, gearbox stiction, air seal, the stability of the hop unit (flex in the arm, deformation of the tensioner etc) bore quality in the barrel, all of which will have an effect in the consistency of the results. All the "marketing" is different companies trying to resolve the variations because airsofters want something that is reliable and consistent. The reason why there IS no consistency is that every manufacturer works to their own tolerances and goals and airsofters by and large are too dumb/gullible to work that out so you end up with what started out as a perfectly reasonable standard gun "upgraded" with loads of shiny bits from different manufacturers, none of which actually work properly TOGETHER.

[Sewdhull]

Hop compound is one thing, but there's contact patch shape, nub shape, the amount of time being hopped and the way the pressure is applied.

Different materials behave differently too.

Which is why it's worth copying others and also why different products work equally well.

 

Yeah when I started Airsoft so many happy years ago there was little to choose from, buckings were available but so much was DIY mods of the stock stuff.

Too much stuff now, if it all worked that would be fine I guess, but as you say it doesn't all fit together.

[Lozart]

9 minutes ago, Sewdhull said:

Hop compound is one thing, but there's contact patch shape, nub shape, the amount of time being hopped and the way the pressure is applied.

Different materials behave differently too.

 

 

Absolutely correct but the discussion was about comparing three different grades of the same make and type of hop rubber in the same gun on the same day to see how much difference the hardness of the rubber itself actually makes.

[Rogerborg]

1 hour ago, Lozart said:

In the same gun with the same power and same BBs in a winter game in Norway it won't give enough so you need a softer rubber. Likewise, take the same gun to a summer game in Florida and you'll need a harder rubber

 

Information, or assumption?  Again, a genuine question as I've had no trouble hopping 0.28g at ~1.1J in any season in the UK with 50, 60 or 70.

[Skara]

70° mainly because it can withstand high raters of fire without breakages (lips on the 50 tend to fold at 25ish rps, causing all sorts of bad things to the gearbox and its internals).

 

If semi only is your thing then a 60 should be fine.

[Lozart]

10 minutes ago, Rogerborg said:

 

Information, or assumption?  Again, a genuine question as I've had no trouble hopping 0.28g at ~1.1J in any season in the UK with 50, 60 or 70.

 

Bit of both. In the UK the extremes of temperature aren't actually that extreme so much like you I've had no need to change rubbers purely because of environmental issues but I have seen a couple of my guns that perform poorly first thing on a winters day after having been packed in the car overnight on account of the rubber stiffening up in the cold.

 

I'd personally say that there's FAR more difference in personal preference as far as the UK goes. If you drastically change the power of the gun or the weight of the BBs then you'll probably see more of a difference with grades of rubber than just the difference of a few degrees between an average winter and summer here (climate change notwithstanding of course) but even then it may just be down to longevity. The very anecdotal nature of airsoft "upgrades" is a problem so I (much like yourself) would love to see an actual, evidence based test much like the AATV style of video that does a back to back of the same three rubbers in the same gun on the same day and then repeated in deep midwinter and the height of summer to see just how much variation there actually is. Of course, as soon as you take the results and apply them to your own gun it all goes out the window (at least to some degree) because your gun ISN'T the gun the test was done with (even if it's the same model and manufacturer).

[Callum861]

On 13/01/2024 at 10:58, Skara said:

Sort the air seal first to make it shoot consistently, then get a Super Macaron in either 60 or 70 degrees.

Don't forget a concave tensioner (Maple Leaf Omega or similar).

I gotta ask how do I check for air leaks ans what's the vest way to correct the leaks if I have one thank you in advance 

[Skara]

Checking them requires you to disassemble the gun and gearbox and you need to test each pair of components, starting from the piston head against the cylinder-cylinder head assembly:

Plug the nozzle with your finger and push the piston, if the air seal is good it'll go down to a certain point, stop and bounce back when you let go of the piston, otherwise you'll hear air escape from either the piston head or the cylinder head.

If it happens, you either need to lubricate the o-rings or replace them.

 

You will then need to check the nozzle:

With the same apparatus add the nozzle and tappet plate, have the nozzle in the forward position by rotating the tappet plate until it rests on the cylinder head "semi circular thingamajig", plug the nozzle and repeat the previous test.

If the nozzle leaks and doesn't have an o-ring, replace it with a o-ring equipped nozzle, make sure to check the length and order accordingly. Don't forget to lube it too!

 

Once the gearbox side is done, it's time to check the barrel assembly:

Generally speaking hop rubbers tend to seal perfectly against barrels, moreover the hop unit will slightly squeeze them together so an air leak from there is unlikely unless either component is damaged.

A VERY THIN wrap of ptfe tape around the front of the hop rubber (where it meets the barrel) may help, but in most cases it's not necessary.

One thing you can do is have the gun assembled with the nozzle fully forward, point a torch down the barrel and look through the hop unit feeding tube, there should be no light coming from where the nozzle meets the hop rubber.

If there is, your nozzle might be too short.

 

Then get a chrono and look for any velocity/energy deviation:

A good air seal will yield very little FPS/J deviation, regardless of the output.

[Colin Allen]

20 minutes ago, Callum861 said:

I gotta ask how do I check for air leaks ans what's the vest way to correct the leaks if I have one thank you in advance 

For any leaks within the gearbox, you have to strip the gearbox down and test the compression of the piston in the cylinder with the cylinder head attached and the nozzle in place.  Stick your finger over the nozzle and try pushing the piston in.  Once it passes the cylinder window (if there is one), it should be almost solid.  If it is not, it is one of:
Piston Head O ring
Cylinder head O ring
Nozzle (if it does not have an O ring, get one with an O ring).

AK2M4 sells everything that you need.

You can also check the seal between the nozzle and the hop rubber; make sure that there are no BBs in the chamber, turn the gun upside down, place a small piece of paper over the feed tube and pull the trigger.  If the paper flies into the air, the nozzle is not fully entering the hop rubber lips; they could be worn or the nozzle could be too short.

[Tactical Pith Helmet]

On 17/01/2024 at 19:31, Rogerborg said:

 

I'd (genuinely) love to see a controlled test of various bucking in the same gun, on the same range, on the same day.  I've seen tests of flat versus R versus S, but not of Maple Leaf 50 vs 60 vs 70 versus Prommy versus whatever else is being pitched as the bestestest bucking ever by Skylar on Reddit this week.

With the same amount of shots through the same gun too?  The first few shots out of a rif on a freezing cold day dribble out of the barrel.  Presumably the hop materials sensitivity to temperature matters.  If you use few shots through a DMR you would not want to rubber to cool too quickly if doing so made it useless after a few minutes.    

 

Bloody hell, I've had the gun in my damn sleeping bag in winter and its still taken a good burst to wake up the hop the next morning. 

[Shamal]

5 hours ago, Tactical Pith Helmet said:

 

 

Bloody hell, I've had the gun in my damn sleeping bag.

That's a bit of a slant on the old "Is that a gun in your pocket,or are you just pleased to see me" gag.

 

"Is that a gun in your sleeping bag or are you REALLY pleased to see me?"

 

I'm beginning to worry about you😂😂

 

[Sewdhull]

11 hours ago, Tactical Pith Helmet said:

With the same amount of shots through the same gun too?  The first few shots out of a rif on a freezing cold day dribble out of the barrel.  Presumably the hop materials sensitivity to temperature matters.  If you use few shots through a DMR you would not want to rubber to cool too quickly if doing so made it useless after a few minutes.    

 

Bloody hell, I've had the gun in my damn sleeping bag in winter and its still taken a good burst to wake up the hop the next morning. 

My research indicates the following.

 

Buckings work because they deform and have more surface to rub on because of it, therefore more time in contact with the BB making the most of the friction, as they get harder they deform less.

 

The actual coefficient of friction reduces as they warm because of physics, but they deform more as they warm until they are deforming too much, requiring a harder rubber.

 

Harder rubbers deform less so they can put more force on the BB, needed for heavier BBs.

The choice of bucking Vs the temperature they are used at matters and the gun will keep cooling or heating the rubber as you have observed.

 

Compressing the air heats it so using the gun heats the insides including the bucking. The barrel will cool it until everything equalises.

 

Cold or warm bbs may well have a similar effect.

 

I can't find any info on aeg air temps so the actual temp the bucking operates at is a mystery but being rubber or similar heating or cooling will be localised whatever it is.