Opinions on UKAPU

[typefish]

50 minutes ago, TacticalWaifu said:

Appreciate the update -- for those not in the know, you're David W., right?

 

Yes, that is correct.

 

50 minutes ago, TacticalWaifu said:

How are you differentiating between an "emergency management meeting" and an EGM or (minimum biannual) management meeting -- the latter of which "members are encouraged to attend" (§ 6.1.5)?

 

I want to hand over the reins in an orderly manner, and the best way to do that is to gather members of our committee and elect a new chairperson ASAP.

 

From that point we would proceed onwards to regularising whatever the committee and wider membership decide to vote for at the AGM.

Edited June 16, 2023 by typefish

[TacticalWaifu]

11 minutes ago, typefish said:

I want to hand over the reins in an orderly manner, and the best way to do that is to gather members of our committee and elect a new chairperson ASAP.

From that point we would proceed onwards to regularising whatever the committee and wider membership decide to vote for at the AGM.

 

That still doesn't address whether this "emergency" management meeting is somehow different to management meetings as per the Constitution, other than being impromptu -- and therefore doesn't answer whether or not members can attend, which they're "encouraged" to do with MM's?

[SBoardley]

The saying “ flogging a dead horse “ comes to mind. 
I believe UKARA membership only works because people make money from it; it enables retailers to profit from sales, and it kinda ensures sites get a regular player base. In my experience, voluntary work always wanes off, as the realisation of the work involved becomes apparent. 

[TacticalWaifu]

UKARA works because it's one of the few legal defences to allow retailers (or current RIF owners) to sell you a RIF.

UKARA itself doesn't make any money AIUI, and actually incur their own costs for running the server with player registrations on, and ICO registration.

 

Unsure if they pay the "professional individual" who handles "programming" (read: site admin), or the admin representative -- but they don't make any money from the Association existing.

 

As for retailers, they can easily (and do) sell two-tone IFs, and/or accept non-UKARA defences when selling RIFs -- so plenty ways of making money from sales even if UKARA wasn't a thing.

[typefish]

1 hour ago, TacticalWaifu said:

Unsure if they pay the "professional individual" who handles "programming" (read: site admin), or the admin representative -- but they don't make any money from the Association existing.

 

Both the admin assistant and the website developer are, as I understand it are paid for their time from shared UKARA funds, which are directly contributed from the fee that retailers pay for access to the UKARA system.

 

I don't believe that money is abstracted from the running of UKARA for anything other than operating expenses and it ultimately is pooled, which is understandable considering how expensive it is to engage in legal proceedings or to provide scientific evidence that can be used when discussing and countering legislation.

 

1 hour ago, SBoardley said:

In my experience, voluntary work always wanes off, as the realisation of the work involved becomes apparent. 

 

Whilst harsh, it's definitely true. The nature of volunteering is that it's done in one's spare time, or referring back to some of our past hijinks, pulling all nighters.

[Rogerborg]

4 hours ago, typefish said:

being held to replace myself as chairman, as I'm resigning

 

I bet he's off to form the Airsoft Players' Union of the United Kingdom.

 

 

Thanks for cat-wrangling for so long, I can't imagine there will be a big queue of volunteers daft enough to be the someone in "Why someone oughta!"

 

[Jamsandwich]

On 16/06/2023 at 14:34, Rogerborg said:

 

I bet he's off to form the Airsoft Players' Union of the United Kingdom.

 

 

Thanks for cat-wrangling for so long, I can't imagine there will be a big queue of volunteers daft enough to be the someone in "Why someone oughta!"

 

[TacticalWaifu]

On 16/06/2023 at 10:58, TacticalWaifu said:

How are you differentiating between an "emergency management meeting" and an EGM or (minimum biannual) management meeting -- the latter of which "members are encouraged to attend" (§ 6.1.5)?

 

 

@typefish, you've been asked this twice and have failed to answer. Can you please clarify whether members can attend tomorrow?

[Skullchewer]

On 21/06/2023 at 11:38, TacticalWaifu said:

 

@typefish, you've been asked this twice and have failed to answer. Can you please clarify whether members can attend tomorrow?

 

I got on board with UKAPU, thinking it seemed like a great idea, and I still believe it is, in theory.

[Cannonfodder]

7 minutes ago, Skullchewer said:

in theory

There's the problem, many things are a good idea in theory. 

[hunter511]

The cynical part of me suspects that this is a "the people that have been giving us money actually want us to do something" kinda meeting.

 

But then again 23yrs as an engineer have left me with an overwhelmingly cynical and pessimistic world view.

[Skullchewer]

3 hours ago, Cannonfodder said:

There's the problem, many things are a good idea in theory. 

Hence the italics 😉

I was beginning to wonder if ukapu was actually any use, and to be honest the replies in this thread are not instilling confidence. 

[Colin Allen]

Did the UKAPU meeting take place?  Are members going to be notified of the outcome at any point?

Do we need to leave our airsoft sites and march on wherever they are based?

Edited June 24, 2023 by Colin Allen

[TacticalWaifu]

1 hour ago, Colin Allen said:

Did the UKAPU meeting take place?  Are members going to be notified of the outcome at any point?

Do we need to leave our airsoft sites and march on wherever they are based?

 

It certainly does seem to have planned to go to head, the then- (presumably now ex-)Chairman had said as much the day before, and was by his own admission (and words) "wholly unprofessional" in his responses, including taking the dictatorial decision to ban members from even attending, without ever consulting the rest of the committee.

 

No word on if it did take place in the end though, or what the result was -- never mind word of an AGM under the new Chairperson.

 

One can only hope they have a little more professionalism and communication than previously (although that's a low bar) -- otherwise they really have no right to be taking money from members and just being totally silent and seemingly dormant.

[Rogerborg]

1 minute ago, TacticalWaifu said:

professionalism

 

Yeah, no, it's a very silly hobby enjoyed by overgrown kids.  Even the "professionals" are generally just hobbyists trying to eke out a living at it.

 

At this point, I honestly think the best result is if the paintball daddies take us under their wing, as they've done the heavy lifting to almost, sort-of, get recognition as a sport.

 

 

1 hour ago, Colin Allen said:

Do we need to leave our airsoft sites and march on wherever they are based?

 

To peacefully and patriotically make our voices heard!

 

[TacticalWaifu]

14 minutes ago, Rogerborg said:

 

Yeah, no, it's a very silly hobby enjoyed by overgrown kids.  Even the "professionals" are generally just hobbyists trying to eke out a living at it.

 

 

I appreciate it's voluntary, but professionalism seemed the right word.

 

There's a certain level of competence and good judgement required (or at least expected) of committee members... and perma-silence is neither good judgement, nor even remotely polite behaviour 😕

Edited June 24, 2023 by TacticalWaifu

[typefish]

8 hours ago, hunter511 said:

The cynical part of me suspects that this is a "the people that have been giving us money actually want us to do something" kinda meeting.

 

But then again 23yrs as an engineer have left me with an overwhelmingly cynical and pessimistic world view.

 

It would be timely if it was, however please be assured that it was purely coincidental. Standing down has been something that has been on my mind for the past year or so, I just never decided to actually do it up until about 4 weeks ago. I wish I had done it sooner, judging by some of the interesting comments in this thread!

 

1 hour ago, Colin Allen said:

Did the UKAPU meeting take place?  Are members going to be notified of the outcome at any point?

 

The minutes are for me to type up they'll be ready by tomorrow I think - never fun doing a committee meeting followed up by a day's skirmishing.

 

Anyhow an update will be provided by a member of the team in this very thread along with other media streams in due course (as in, very shortly!) - I can't say too much about that now as I'm no longer the chairman! 🙂

 

25 minutes ago, TacticalWaifu said:

By his own admission (and words) "wholly unprofessional" in his response

 

No, the wholly unprofessional response reference was due to me highlighting the fact that the resignation was brought on with regards to personal health reasons, partly brought on by the whole airsoft thing shutting down thing during the pandemic. If you chose to interpret that in a different manner, then that is understandable.

 

This will be the last time I reply to this topic as personally I'm baffled as to why there's such discontent about what is strictly an internal meeting, discussing things that are internal and sensitive in nature. It is something that the committee is entitled to do, and in some instances, is required to do.

Edited June 24, 2023 by typefish

[Colin Allen]

14 minutes ago, typefish said:

This will be the last time I reply to this topic

Bye.

[Cannonfodder]

12 hours ago, typefish said:

I'm baffled as to why there's such discontent about what is strictly an internal meeting, discussing things that are internal and sensitive in nature. It is something that the committee is entitled to do, and in some instances, is required to do.

There's a big difference between between holding a committee meeting and complete radio silence. The latter is a guaranteed way to get the rumour mill working overtime.

 

12 hours ago, TacticalWaifu said:

I appreciate it's voluntary, but professionalism seemed the right word.

I'd say it's the right word. Whether voluntary or a paid position if a person or organisation is going to claim to be official representatives of a group of people then they need to be extremely open and honest about what's going on go those they claim to represent.

[Colin Allen]

UKAPU seems to make a decent surplus; are they saving for a rainy day or building up funds in case there is an attempt to ban airsoft?

£18,412.55 as a Paypal Balance?????

An interesting set of questions for the AGM, when it eventually happens.

[Pseudotectonic]

This is my initial impression so if I got anything wrong feel free to correct me.

 

Being an unincorporated association means it cannot legally own anything, cannot make any formal contracts, does not even have its own legal entity, all the assets are held by some officer or trustee, and there is no limited liability and it can only be sued through the officers or members.

Looking at the "benefits" it is largely useless, it has no lobbying power to "preserve UK airsoft", its does not have any lawyer who can offer any better "legal help" than internet forums or some FAQ pages on their website, "member only games" is no different than any random game anyone can organise privately on facebook, the "regional representations" are largely vacant and not more useful than anyone on facebook, and the "discounts" is perpetually "in negotiations" which is basically false advertisement.

It is literally a facebook group larping as an charity and started asking for donation money, and getting away with it because it does not legally exist. Where does the money go? You get to fund their collective larping activities, and you get a patch for being associated with it. And, you get to take part in a raffle if you attend their AGM, which is going to be proportionately attended by more officers than members.

Granted they have saved £20k so far but hard to imagine what they can do with £20k, maybe funding private games? But surely it is going to benefit just a few people and not every member? What is the money doing in a paypal account? If it is not spending the money to promote airsoft and actually getting discounts for members, does it count as charity fraud? What is it even doing?

Does the future of airsoft need protection from a facebook group who can't afford their own PR?

[Rogerborg]

3 hours ago, Colin Allen said:

£18,412.55 as a Paypal Balance?????

 

Zoinks. I wouldn't keep £18 in PayPal, given their propensity for locking access to funds on the slightest pretence, or none.  I'd hope that was "just resting" there and has been moved somewhere safer.

 

I'd assume that's a fighting fund, although it would cover advice, legal nastygrams, or amicus curiae briefs, not taking a complex case through the courts.

 

There are no shenanigans going on. Membership is entirely consensual, the accounts are open, and nobody has to pay - it's clearly marked as a donation. I joined at the free tier to see how active UKAPU was, concluded that it wasn't[*], and so have never bothered donating.  I'd love to be given a reason to do so.

 

[*] Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, but it's all we've got to go on.

[Colin Allen]

14 minutes ago, Rogerborg said:

There are no shenanigans going on.

I agree; however, they seem to be sitting on a relatively large amount of money, most of it possibly still in a rather vulnerable PayPal account, that does not seem to be being used in any constructive way to benefit either airsoft or UKAPU members.

I cancelled my annual donation this morning, mainly because I have no idea what UKAPU does that benefits the hobby.

[Rogerborg]

1 hour ago, Colin Allen said:

they seem to be sitting on a relatively large amount of money

 

Might have invested it in sweets and caps and go-carts by now.  

 

 

1 hour ago, Colin Allen said:

does not seem to be being used in any constructive way to benefit either airsoft

 

Does airsoft need benefitting?  The obvious missing ingredient is recognition as a sport.  However, I'm not going to say "Why someone oughta!", since it would be peak hypocrisy to berate anyone else for not volunteering to do what I'm not volunteering to do.

 

 

1 hour ago, Colin Allen said:

or UKAPU members.

 

Patches, to lord it over the peasants.

 

 

1 hour ago, Colin Allen said:

I cancelled my annual donation this morning, mainly because I have no idea what UKAPU does that benefits the hobby.

 

It seems like a case of you don't need UKAPU until you really need UKAPU, so thanks for supporting it.

[Colin Allen]

6 minutes ago, Rogerborg said:

It seems like a case of you don't need UKAPU until you really need UKAPU, so thanks for supporting it.

I am not sure why one would really need UKAPU.  Are there any known cases where their intervention has saved an airsofter from potential imprisonment or similar?  Have they ever influenced legislation or government policy?