Seeking confirmation that contrary to Wolf Armouries advice, this is *not* normal

[BoingusMaximus]

I bought an Umarex VFC Walther PPQ from Wolf Armouries a couple of weeks ago. I had problems with it, using the recommended and supplied green gas - it was spitting out gas half-way through a mag. I learned this is considered as 'venting'. I told Wolf, sent it back to them, and they tested it. Their response was that I was shooting too fast, and that venting is normal in that case.

I spent that evening searching online, and nowhere in any forums, etc... does anyone describe venting as anything other than a problem that needs to be fixed, due to valves, o-rings, and so on. I even bought another mag to try that, and the same happened. I spoke to Wolf again, and they assured me that as long as I don't shoot too quickly then it won't happen. But what is 'too quickly'? Does that mean I cannot double-tap? Can I not use it in skirmishes or timed target shooting because it's not usable for shooting more than once per few seconds? What is the point in it being a semi-auto if I can only shoot it at the same speed as a spring action pistol?

Anyway, here is a video of me shooting it - to confirm from others that this is not normal, or acceptable, but faulty. I'm pretty sure VFC and Umarex wouldn't count this as normal either.

Thank you,

Steve

 

Edited July 11, 2022 by BoingusMaximus
Solved issue

[Spartan09]

Nope,  not normal...   and that video actually shows a fairly slow rate of fire.

 

I regularly see players that switch to their pistols for close-up action firing much quicker than that with no venting.

[BoingusMaximus]

6 minutes ago, Spartan09 said:

Nope,  not normal...   and that video actually shows a fairly slow rate of fire.

 

I regularly see players that switch to their pistols for close-up action firing much quicker than that with no venting.

Thank you, that's as I thought. I'll get back onto them to either fix it or provide a refund.

[Floperator]

Not normal at all, and they're frankly taking the piss if they're telling you it is.

[Speedbird_666]

Definately not normal. You can dump an entire mag in 3-4 seconds with pretty much any TM with no problems. 

 

I had a VFC/Stark Arms Glock at one point, I could shoot it as fast as I wanted, but it needed to be run with a lot of lube on the piston head. But it ran a lot better than your gun even without said heavy lubrication.

 

Send it back and demand a refund under distance selling rules. Send your video as evidence in the email. If you paid via PayPal, open a dispute if they dick you around. 

 

Wolf Armouries don't have the best reputation for customer care. 

 

 

[BoingusMaximus]

7 minutes ago, Floperator said:

Not normal at all, and they're frankly taking the piss if they're telling you it is.

 

I think so too. Thank you.

1 minute ago, Speedbird_666 said:

Wolf Armouries don't have the best reputation for customer care. 

 

 

 

I have started to discover a lot of people saying that, in various places online. Such a shame, as that will impact their business a lot over time.

[Speedbird_666]

9 minutes ago, BoingusMaximus said:

I have started to discover a lot of people saying that, in various places online. Such a shame, as that will impact their business a lot over time.

 

Amazingly, they are one of the 'old guard' airsoft retailers, that have been around for many years (probably close to 20)- alongside the likes of Fire-Support and Zero One.

 

Only ordered from them once and it went OK, but I've heard quite a few stories where after sales care was not good at all.

 

Hopefully you will get a functioning gun or a refund. If you you used a Credit Card, maybe you could do a charge back through the CC company if they don't sort things out for you.

[Adolf Hamster]

worth asking- how are you filling the mags? bottle inverted and held for a few seconds? because that symptom might be due to an underfill.

 

if it's not underfilled mags then as above that's an abysmal showing given the season and the rate of fire, you should at minimum expect it to empty a full load of bb's and lock back on a fresh tank of gas.

[BoingusMaximus]

8 minutes ago, Adolf Hamster said:

worth asking- how are you filling the mags? bottle inverted and held for a few seconds? because that symptom might be due to an underfill.

 

if it's not underfilled mags then as above that's an abysmal showing given the season and the rate of fire, you should at minimum expect it to empty a full load of bb's and lock back on a fresh tank of gas.

 

I count to 12 with 'and' inbetween on the fill, so probably about 10 seconds

18 minutes ago, Speedbird_666 said:

 

Amazingly, they are one of the 'old guard' airsoft retailers, that have been around for many years (probably close to 20)- alongside the likes of Fire-Support and Zero One.

 

Only ordered from them once and it went OK, but I've heard quite a few stories where after sales care was not good at all.

 

Hopefully you will get a functioning gun or a refund. If you you used a Credit Card, maybe you could do a charge back through the CC company if they don't sort things out for you.

 

I work in branding - so can say for sure that if they're still going now then they'd be absolutely thriving if they went for it with customer care. It's often a case of false economy not to... like it'll cost them 20% more in time, resource, money to provide top quality customer services, etc... but they'll make 60% more off the back of it, giving a net benefit. But some companies will only see that short term 20% cost, rather than the long term ongoing gains.

[Adolf Hamster]

2 minutes ago, BoingusMaximus said:

I count to 12 with 'and' inbetween on the fill, so probably about 10 seconds

 

12 seconds should definitely be long enough, is that with the bottle inverted? ie upside down above the mag.

 

the "gas" in the mag is actually a liquid (think lighter "gas", same principle with the liquid portion sloshing around) so you want liquid from the bottle going into the mag.

[BoingusMaximus]

2 minutes ago, Adolf Hamster said:

 

12 seconds should definitely be long enough, is that with the bottle inverted? ie upside down above the mag.

 

the "gas" in the mag is actually a liquid (think lighter "gas", same principle with the liquid portion sloshing around) so you want liquid from the bottle going into the mag.

 

Yes am doing it inverted - should I not be?

[Adolf Hamster]

3 minutes ago, BoingusMaximus said:

 

Yes am doing it inverted - should I not be?

 

inverted is the correct way. was just making sure we can eliminate underfilling as a cause for those symptoms.

 

as @Speedbird_666 said it's refund time.....

[Asomodai]

Wondering if lubing the slide would do the trick. It could be struggling if it's bone dry and when the gas pressure gets lower it cant cycle. Have you done the usual maintenence/lubing to the slide?

[THE FNG]

47 minutes ago, Speedbird_666 said:

 

Amazingly, they are one of the 'old guard' airsoft retailers, that have been around for many years (probably close to 20)- alongside the likes of Fire-Support and Zero One.

 

Only ordered from them once and it went OK, but I've heard quite a few stories where after sales care was not good at all.

 

Hopefully you will get a functioning gun or a refund. If you you used a Credit Card, maybe you could do a charge back through the CC company if they don't sort things out for you.

Definately nearly 20 yrs; I used them as part of my market research in my business studies project when I was 14; I'm 31 now.

 

 

Re the walther; I have the WE version and I can get through a full mag no issue in a few seconds in autumnal UK weather. 

[BoingusMaximus]

6 minutes ago, THE FNG said:

Definately nearly 20 yrs; I used them as part of my market research in my business studies project when I was 14; I'm 31 now.

 

 

Re the walther; I have the WE version and I can get through a full mag no issue in a few seconds in autumnal UK weather. 

 

Ah, I didn't realise WE did a version too - I will have a look into that, thanks.

14 minutes ago, Asomodai said:

Wondering if lubing the slide would do the trick. It could be struggling if it's bone dry and when the gas pressure gets lower it cant cycle. Have you done the usual maintenence/lubing to the slide?

 

I haven't - but I'm just about to send it back and request either a TM HK45 in its place, or get a refund and buy one of them from somewhere else.

[PureSilver]

GBBs are not actually that complicated and this sort of problem is not uncommon. Sorry if this seems patronising (I don't know your experience level) but here are some things I think you should investigate before returning the gun.

1. Is it cold where you live? Try shooting the gun indoors, where it's a bit warmer, to see if higher vapour pressure improves performance.
2. Does the gas canister you're filling from have any actual liquid left in it? If you swirl it around you should hear and feel the liquid sloshing around inside. If there's no liquid in the canister to transfer to the magazine the gun won't shoot more than a handful of shots before venting.
3. Is the magazine filling correctly? If the magazine is completely empty (push the outlet valve with your finger to completely empty it), you should hear the magazine filling with liquid, and then an audible change in tone or cessation of noise when it's full. If you're not sure, try weighing the magazine both empty and full - you should be seeing a difference of at least 5-10g, I should think.

The problems I suspect you actually have:

1. Are the gun's seals dried out? I strongly suspect that your problem lies in the rubber seals in the gun's blowback unit, located in the rear of the slide. If the gun has been sitting on the shelf for a long time, it's possible that those seals have dried out and shrunk, allowing gas to blow by. This cripples efficiency; the rather anaemic blowback you're getting could be a sign of that. You can check this by removing the nozzle to access the seals, and solve it by generously oiling them with silicone oil and letting them soak it up for a couple of hours.
2. Is the gun clean and correctly lubricated? Often guns come very dry from the factory; the slide rails in particular usually need lubricant for the gun to run smoothly. Excessive friction can cause the slide to hang up, which increases the time before the valve knocker is reset, which ruins efficiency. Ideally you should lubricate the rails with a non-petroleum-based grease - I like Froglube. Check to see how smooth the slide feels if you rack it by hand; if it feels resistant or gritty, clean the rails with a paper towel (preferably also with isopropyl alcohol, or warm soapy water) and lubricate them.

These last two points are regular maintenance items on any GBB and it is very common for out-of-the-box guns to have these issues.

 

24 minutes ago, BoingusMaximus said:

I'm just about to send it back and request either a TM HK45 in its place, or get a refund and buy one of them from somewhere else.

 

TMs tend to be much more reliable and higher-performance out of the box, especially in cold weather. Bear in mind that the HK45 does not have a metal slide or outer barrel and it will be almost impossible to get them.

 

24 minutes ago, BoingusMaximus said:

Ah, I didn't realise WE did a version too - I will have a look into that, thanks.

 

WE do a P99, but not a PPQ.

Edited June 29, 2022 by PureSilver

[SilentSparky]

I have the same pistol and had a very similar issue from new, it would vent after 2 or 3 shots, but was fine dry firing.  I brought mine from Defcon and raised a warranty claim, I sent it back to them and it came back to me with a new mag, so I assume there was some mag issue, although they may of carried out other fixes also?  all fine now and I can rapidly fire through a mag no issues.

[BoingusMaximus]

1 hour ago, SilentSparky said:

I have the same pistol and had a very similar issue from new, it would vent after 2 or 3 shots, but was fine dry firing.  I brought mine from Defcon and raised a warranty claim, I sent it back to them and it came back to me with a new mag, so I assume there was some mag issue, although they may of carried out other fixes also?  all fine now and I can rapidly fire through a mag no issues.

 

Thanks - that's interesting. I assume they must have done other fixes too, as I've tried two different mags.

1 hour ago, PureSilver said:

GBBs are not actually that complicated and this sort of problem is not uncommon. Sorry if this seems patronising (I don't know your experience level) but here are some things I think you should investigate before returning the gun.

1. Is it cold where you live? Try shooting the gun indoors, where it's a bit warmer, to see if higher vapour pressure improves performance.
2. Does the gas canister you're filling from have any actual liquid left in it? If you swirl it around you should hear and feel the liquid sloshing around inside. If there's no liquid in the canister to transfer to the magazine the gun won't shoot more than a handful of shots before venting.
3. Is the magazine filling correctly? If the magazine is completely empty (push the outlet valve with your finger to completely empty it), you should hear the magazine filling with liquid, and then an audible change in tone or cessation of noise when it's full. If you're not sure, try weighing the magazine both empty and full - you should be seeing a difference of at least 5-10g, I should think.

The problems I suspect you actually have:

1. Are the gun's seals dried out? I strongly suspect that your problem lies in the rubber seals in the gun's blowback unit, located in the rear of the slide. If the gun has been sitting on the shelf for a long time, it's possible that those seals have dried out and shrunk, allowing gas to blow by. This cripples efficiency; the rather anaemic blowback you're getting could be a sign of that. You can check this by removing the nozzle to access the seals, and solve it by generously oiling them with silicone oil and letting them soak it up for a couple of hours.
2. Is the gun clean and correctly lubricated? Often guns come very dry from the factory; the slide rails in particular usually need lubricant for the gun to run smoothly. Excessive friction can cause the slide to hang up, which increases the time before the valve knocker is reset, which ruins efficiency. Ideally you should lubricate the rails with a non-petroleum-based grease - I like Froglube. Check to see how smooth the slide feels if you rack it by hand; if it feels resistant or gritty, clean the rails with a paper towel (preferably also with isopropyl alcohol, or warm soapy water) and lubricate them.

These last two points are regular maintenance items on any GBB and it is very common for out-of-the-box guns to have these issues.

 

 

TMs tend to be much more reliable and higher-performance out of the box, especially in cold weather. Bear in mind that the HK45 does not have a metal slide or outer barrel and it will be almost impossible to get them.

 

 

WE do a P99, but not a PPQ.

 

Thank you for the detailed response.

 

It's quite warm here - summer time near Bournemouth. The gas definitely has plenty left, only filled the mag a few times. And yes, certain it's filling correctly.

 

I think you're probably right about the causes - but I've mailed it back now anyway, so hoping they'll just agree to either refund me or send the HK. Either way I'll be fine with that. I assume the lack of metal slide and outer barrel isn't of too much concern, given what I've seen in reviews about the reliability. I'll check if I should use only 1.0 green instead of 2.0 with it.

[Speedbird_666]

1 hour ago, BoingusMaximus said:

It's quite warm here - summer time near Bournemouth.

 

I dunno - I'm sat in Christchurch right now and it doesn't feel much like summer here....*reaches for a hoody*...

[BoingusMaximus]

41 minutes ago, Speedbird_666 said:

 

I dunno - I'm sat in Christchurch right now and it doesn't feel much like summer here....*reaches for a hoody*...

 

Christchurch?? That's where I'm going to be using it... the gun club there has started an airsoft comp! Are you a member?

[Speedbird_666]

32 minutes ago, BoingusMaximus said:

 

Christchurch?? That's where I'm going to be using it... the gun club there has started an airsoft comp! Are you a member?

 

I'm a member of the TAL arms airgun club that meets every couple of weeks at St Leonards near Ferndown. They just started doing IPSC style shooting with CO2 pellet/4.5mm BB pistols.

 

I'm not a member of the St Catherines Hill or Parley ranges though. 

[Shamal]

40 minutes ago, BoingusMaximus said:

 

Christchurch?? That's where I'm going to be using it... the gun club there has started an airsoft comp! Are you a member?

I was a member of St Catherines hill gun club for many years. Was a range officer on the airgun side.

Won lots of cups in field target comps and action pistol.

Also used the indoor live range at parkstone and went with the club to Bisley couple of times.

 

 

 

[Speedbird_666]

3 minutes ago, Shamal said:

I was a member of St Catherines hill gun club for many years. Was a range officer on the airgun side.

Won lots of cups in field target comps and action pistol.

Also used the indoor live range at parkstone and went with the club to Bisley couple of times.

 

Bloody hell Nigel - small world lol.

 

I do airgun shooting as well every two weeks with my old man - we quite happily spend a morning punching holes in paper targets at the club. He's got a lovely Weirauch HW100 and I use a cheapo Gamo Venari PCP (made in Birmingham by BSA), which keeps up with the cool kids in the accuracy stakes put is too heavy/poorly balanced for unsupported FT/HFT.

 

[Shamal]

Crikey ain't it just! Lol.

Yeah I was a regular in tal arms(still got the cap).

Myself and my son used to go pretty much every weekend.

I had an Air Arms Shamal pcp(hence the handle) and a Bsa gold star ten shot under lever my son had a gamo rat catcher and he did very well with it.He has a bsa se ultra pcp now. 

The Shamal was pinpoint accurate but heavy.Still have both of them.

 

 Weirauch made lovely guns.

 

I've not fired either of mine for ten years☹️

 

Regards 

 

[BoingusMaximus]

1 hour ago, Speedbird_666 said:

 

I'm a member of the TAL arms airgun club that meets every couple of weeks at St Leonards near Ferndown. They just started doing IPSC style shooting with CO2 pellet/4.5mm BB pistols.

 

I'm not a member of the St Catherines Hill or Parley ranges though. 

 

I live in St Leonards!! I didn't know they exist. I had better join up then

1 hour ago, Shamal said:

I was a member of St Catherines hill gun club for many years. Was a range officer on the airgun side.

Won lots of cups in field target comps and action pistol.

Also used the indoor live range at parkstone and went with the club to Bisley couple of times.

 

 

 

 

I've just joined there - joined for using my .22LR stuff but then discovered they have airsoft comps too, hence my purchase of this PPQ in the first place

 

Seem like a great bunch of guys down there.