barrel, hop, and rubber question

[Guest SoupyXo]

i have a c17 core by specna with a rotary hop unit, and id like to replace the hop rubber and maybe the inner barrel for something better. I'm not sure what kind of barrel to get or what length will fit, or which hop rubber to get. i use .20g bb's and i think i have the m120 spring fitted if that makes a difference.   any suggestions? 

[concretesnail]

I've always had good results from mapleleaf rubbers and zci barrels, not bad on price either. It might also be worth changing weight of the bb unless the sites you play at specified the use of .20s

[Guest SoupyXo]

39 minutes ago, concretesnail said:

I've always had good results from mapleleaf rubbers and zci barrels, not bad on price either. It might also be worth changing weight of the bb unless the sites you play at specified the use of .20s

 

any suggestions for a specific maple leaf rubber? im not too sure what the numbers for them mean

also is there any downside to 5mm extra length on the inner barrel? my inner is 235mm as it sits, 

[Tactical Pith Helmet]

The number relates to the degree of hardness.  The harder the rubber, the heavier the BB that they are designed to lift.  For .20 you want 50 degrees.

 

As said above, unless your site says .20 only, most regular players use .25 or .28 in an aeg, along with a 50 or 60 degree ML.  

 

A change of 5mm either way is meaningless performance wise, it might matter aesthetically mind.  

[Guest SoupyXo]

4 hours ago, Tactical Pith Helmet said:

The number relates to the degree of hardness.  The harder the rubber, the heavier the BB that they are designed to lift.  For .20 you want 50 degrees.

 

As said above, unless your site says .20 only, most regular players use .25 or .28 in an aeg, along with a 50 or 60 degree ML.  

 

A change of 5mm either way is meaningless performance wise, it might matter aesthetically mind.  

much appreciated!! 

 

so, if i were to get a 60 degree maple leaf, and a 6.02mm bore 240mm length zci barrel (i have a flash hider so the 5mm extra would be hidden by that), i should be good?

would i need a nub or anything? i took the barrel out last night to measure it and there was only a metal ring, the hop rubber, and the retaining clip for the hop unit

[Hudson]

Maple leaf buckings are designed to work with their own omega nub, due to the shape.

[Adolf Hamster]

2 hours ago, SoupyXo said:

so, if i were to get a 60 degree maple leaf, and a 6.02mm bore 240mm length zci barrel (i have a flash hider so the 5mm extra would be hidden by that), i should be good?

 

you'll want to be using the omega nub with the macaron, 5mm difference in barrel length won't be enough to have any voluming issues so if it's hidden then all good.

[Skara]

Two things:

a) you mentioned a m120 spring, did you work on the gearbox? because assuming a perfect air seal and no teeth removed from the sector, a M120 will give way above 1.13J of energy.

b) what's your field like? Woodland or indoor CQB?

 

If your answer to B is cqb, then you won't need to change anything, as long as the bb goes somewhat straight for 20 or so metres you're golden. Maybe swap the rubber out for a Prometheus Purple if you really want to change something.

 

If the answer is woodland, then you might want to consider a couple of things:

• 0.2s are not up to the task, yes they fly out of your barrel pretty fast, but due to their low weight (and inertia) they lose power and speed pretty quickly, limiting your range;
• For average woodland usage, most people go for 0.28, 0.30 and 0.32g bbs, they have a lower initial velocity but due to their increased mass (and inertia) they hold onto their energy for longer, are less affected by wind and generally speaking they sport higher range. Some people use heavier (0.40 and upwards) because they sleep under a bridge can afford it, somehow.

To get the best from these heavier weights, you need a hop up system that can support them.

This means a hop unit that is as rigid as it gets, especially around the hop arm, to give the most consistent pressure possible and a hop rubber with a concave contact patch. Barrels are not as important as people may think, as long as they are straight and aren't overly tight/wide they're okay.

 

Speaking of your case, Specna Cores come with an okay hop up chamber, which isn't the best in terms of rigidity (mine definitely weren't) but they are workable.

Maple Leaf hop rubbers (specifically Macarons and Super Macarons) are a good upgrade that doesn't cost money or mental health (looking at you R-Hops), they require a dedicated concave tensioner (Maple Leaf Omega or similar). Alternatively a PDI W-Hold with its B type tensioner, a generic flat hop even though it's outdated and finnicky to make.

Barrels: the ZCI mentioned are really good for what they cost, just be aware that being tighter than the stock Specna barrels they'll increase the energy.

 

I have two Specna Core guns, both run on Maxx units, Maple Leaf rubbers (60° Super Macaron on the C-02, 70° Super Macaron on the C-08), ZCI barrels (260mm C-02 and 247mm C-08), both guns can deliver 0.3g bbs at 60 metres while being sub 1J in energy (both around 0.97/0.98J).

Now the Maxx chambers are expensive and require some fiddling with, but imo you can't beat them in terms of consistency (no, plastic ZCI units aren't just as good, stop lying to yourself). You may need a different nozzle because they only want certain lengths.

 

A few considerations on rubber hardness:

Most people recommend 50s or 60s, I found 50s to be way, way too soft, especially the feed lips which tend to deform and fold in full auto causing power drops and inconsistent hop.

Don't bother with R-Hops, they still wear out and it's a pain to replace patches.

As said, flat hops are a thing of the past, it was done to mimic the R-Hop but without the hassle of preparing and gluing a rubber patch on the barrel. Most hop units don't even have enough range of adjustment to make up for the lack of material (there is no contact patch) and when I did them years ago, I had to get creative and make my own tensioners.

 

Overall upgrading your hop up system is one of the things I consider mandatory in order to get the best performance out of your RIF, but only if you can really exploit its potential.

[Guest SoupyXo]

20 minutes ago, Skara said:

Two things:

a) you mentioned a m120 spring, did you work on the gearbox? because assuming a perfect air seal and no teeth removed from the sector, a M120 will give way above 1.13J of energy.

b) what's your field like? Woodland or indoor CQB?

 

If your answer to B is cqb, then you won't need to change anything, as long as the bb goes somewhat straight for 20 or so metres you're golden. Maybe swap the rubber out for a Prometheus Purple if you really want to change something.

 

If the answer is woodland, then you might want to consider a couple of things:

• 0.2s are not up to the task, yes they fly out of your barrel pretty fast, but due to their low weight (and inertia) they lose power and speed pretty quickly, limiting your range;
• For average woodland usage, most people go for 0.28, 0.30 and 0.32g bbs, they have a lower initial velocity but due to their increased mass (and inertia) they hold onto their energy for longer, are less affected by wind and generally speaking they sport higher range. Some people use heavier (0.40 and upwards) because they sleep under a bridge can afford it, somehow.

To get the best from these heavier weights, you need a hop up system that can support them.

This means a hop unit that is as rigid as it gets, especially around the hop arm, to give the most consistent pressure possible and a hop rubber with a concave contact patch. Barrels are not as important as people may think, as long as they are straight and aren't overly tight/wide they're okay.

 

Speaking of your case, Specna Cores come with an okay hop up chamber, which isn't the best in terms of rigidity (mine definitely weren't) but they are workable.

Maple Leaf hop rubbers (specifically Macarons and Super Macarons) are a good upgrade that doesn't cost money or mental health (looking at you R-Hops), they require a dedicated concave tensioner (Maple Leaf Omega or similar). Alternatively a PDI W-Hold with its B type tensioner, a generic flat hop even though it's outdated and finnicky to make.

Barrels: the ZCI mentioned are really good for what they cost, just be aware that being tighter than the stock Specna barrels they'll increase the energy.

 

I have two Specna Core guns, both run on Maxx units, Maple Leaf rubbers (60° Super Macaron on the C-02, 70° Super Macaron on the C-08), ZCI barrels (260mm C-02 and 247mm C-08), both guns can deliver 0.3g bbs at 60 metres while being sub 1J in energy (both around 0.97/0.98J).

Now the Maxx chambers are expensive and require some fiddling with, but imo you can't beat them in terms of consistency (no, plastic ZCI units aren't just as good, stop lying to yourself). You may need a different nozzle because they only want certain lengths.

 

A few considerations on rubber hardness:

Most people recommend 50s or 60s, I found 50s to be way, way too soft, especially the feed lips which tend to deform and fold in full auto causing power drops and inconsistent hop.

Don't bother with R-Hops, they still wear out and it's a pain to replace patches.

As said, flat hops are a thing of the past, it was done to mimic the R-Hop but without the hassle of preparing and gluing a rubber patch on the barrel. Most hop units don't even have enough range of adjustment to make up for the lack of material (there is no contact patch) and when I did them years ago, I had to get creative and make my own tensioners.

 

Overall upgrading your hop up system is one of the things I consider mandatory in order to get the best performance out of your RIF, but only if you can really exploit its potential.

 

i havent touched the gearbox YET, but if and when i do, it'll be to shim and grease it for a brushless (brushed is outdated, stop lying to yourself) but in terms of the spring, i think its a 120, it could be a 110, it could be a 100, i really have no idea. its the spring that they take out to put an m90 in, and it was in the m90 packet, but its far stiffer than the one that was fitted, which is why i think its an m120 or something close

ill be doing indoor cqb, but would like to try woodland at some point.

 

basically, im just looking for reasons to spend money on parts so i can learn how to do all this stuff myself and not need to pay a tech, i dont like paying someone else to do something im more than likely capable of doing myself, without using teflon tape or blutack because im not a hack job bodger XD 

[Adolf Hamster]

If you wanna spend money and learn to tech your first purchase should be a second pew, either a backup to be left as-is or a boneyard gun to learn by fixing up.

 

Either way having a reliable backup gun to pull out when the latest teching experiment fails is infinitely preferable to the walk of shame. Trust me that shit gets old fast.

[Skara]

What Adolf said, essentially.

 

Learning to tech on your only gun can be giga frustrating because if you fuck up you won't be able to go out and play.

 

It's expensive, but trust me it's worth. Doesn't even have to be a brand new gun, it could also be a boneyard/2nd hand RIF.

[Guest SoupyXo]

so, the trouble with boneyard is, its still held up by ukara, and i don't have a defence yet, and we all know retailers who sell boneyard crap don't always tell you the whole story... id definitely buy boneyard if it wasn't locked behind a defence, since im just looking for something to fiddle with so i don't ruin my aeg... i could mess with my hi-capa but i also don't wanna break that.

 

my second option is to buy parts to build an aeg from scratch, and just build an absolute unit that's full metal everything and looks nuts

[Adolf Hamster]

Just now, SoupyXo said:

so, the trouble with boneyard is, its still held up by ukara, and i don't have a defence yet, and we all know retailers who sell boneyard crap don't always tell you the whole story... id definitely buy boneyard if it wasn't locked behind a defence, since im just looking for something to fiddle with so i don't ruin my aeg... i could mess with my hi-capa but i also don't wanna break that.

 

won't be too long to get ukara setup, so might as well wait.

 

it's a pain i know but that's just how it is.

 

1 minute ago, SoupyXo said:

my second option is to buy parts to build an aeg from scratch, and just build an absolute unit that's full metal everything and looks nuts

 

sadly that'll be much harder than you'd think it should be. frankly we're lucky that internal gearbox parts tend to fit relatively well, but getting large scale components to play nice is a whole different ball game- take a look at the stuff fusion engine users go through to get a "standard v2 drop-in" to play nice with a given receiver set.

[Skara]

2 minutes ago, SoupyXo said:

buy parts to build an aeg from scratch

This is one good way to waste a fuckton of money.

Unfortunately Airsoft doesn't have any sort of standard, parts from brand X may not fit well with brand Y, and often parts from X won't fit with parts from the same X brand too!

[Guest SoupyXo]

it's incredibly sad that there isn't a standard platform for say an m4 base, which i guess is why the technology behind it hasn't really moved forward too much in a long time, and people are still using nimh's and brushed shite, as opposed to using extremely programmable electrics and brushless motors (sure, an AB++ is programmable, but it isn't as good as it could be, and the price for a warhead base motor is disgusting) 

[Skara]

Just now, SoupyXo said:

it's incredibly sad that there isn't a standard platform for say an m4 base, which i guess is why the technology behind it hasn't really moved forward too much in a long time, and people are still using nimh's and brushed shite, as opposed to using extremely programmable electrics and brushless motors (sure, an AB++ is programmable, but it isn't as good as it could be, and the price for a warhead base motor is disgusting) 

 

 

That's because you can't give a Ferrari to someone who's just got his license unless you want to attend his funeral the next day or so 

[Steveocee]

The M4 (V2) is a kind of standard. The issue you have is the manufacturing, all manufacturers use a different tolerance so often you get a part that isn't quite right or it's super tight, it's the result of manufacturer A being a bit sloppy and B being a bit too tight.

 

Perfect example, TM Hi Capas, the aftermarket CNC alu slides are often more precise than the TM frames they're designed to fit to so you end up hand racking them for hours to get the perfect fit.

 

That's airsoft and the V2 platform has such a wide plethora of parts you will always find somethign that doesn't fit and usually 15 that do.

 

 

2 minutes ago, Skara said:

That's because you can't give a Ferrari to someone who's just got his license unless you want to attend his funeral the next day or so 

 

I'm sure theres a joke about workmanship in there which would be very borderline.... Obviously not if YOU built it though 😁

Edited May 3, 2022 by Steveocee

[Adolf Hamster]

1 minute ago, SoupyXo said:

it's incredibly sad that there isn't a standard platform for say an m4 base, which i guess is why the technology behind it hasn't really moved forward too much in a long time, and people are still using nimh's and brushed shite, as opposed to using extremely programmable electrics and brushless motors (sure, an AB++ is programmable, but it isn't as good as it could be, and the price for a warhead base motor is disgusting) 

 

that's airsoft for ya......

 

sadly a big barrier to innovation in this hobby is that anyone who tries does so in the knowledge that if their new thing is any good, it'll be cloned almost immediately- take a look at the odin m12 saga as a perfect example, some places you could nearly grab a clone before you could get your hands on the original.....

[Rogerborg]

1 hour ago, SoupyXo said:

but in terms of the spring, i think its a 120

 

It is, all Specnas come with an M90 and an M120.  You'll want that M90 back in, or buy an M100.  There's very little use for an M120 in the UK unless it's for a DMR at a site with a low power limit, or if you're removing teeth and reducing cylinder volume.

 

Normally I'd agree with using a Maple Leaf omega nub with a Maple Leaf bucking, but you may have a flat hop as stock in your Specna.  If your bucking looks like this, it actually works quite well with a Maple Leaf hop.  However, it's likely to over-hop 0.2g.  I'd suggest 0.28g for woodland.

 

However, I'd urge you to play with it unmeddled first (with the M90 spring) before doing anything to it, if only to get a baseline of its performance.  A lot of airsoft "upgrades" can be sidegrades or downgrades if the parts don't work well together or you get a QC reject.

 

[Guest SoupyXo]

2 minutes ago, Adolf Hamster said:

 

that's airsoft for ya......

 

sadly a big barrier to innovation in this hobby is that anyone who tries does so in the knowledge that if their new thing is any good, it'll be cloned almost immediately- take a look at the odin m12 saga as a perfect example, some places you could nearly grab a clone before you could get your hands on the original.....

 

saw it in the RC world a lot... cloned chassis' being available on aliexpress before the original was available from retailers, the same motor internals as some ''high end'' brand being in a ''cheaper alternative shell'' just with an not so well reputed brand name applied, or the same ESC (in airsoft terms, the mosfet) being re-shelled and resold under a handful of names because why not.

 

clones happen, copyright law sucks and barely works, and if the result is people not wanting to innovate, then that's on the people who COULD innovate, but choose not to because someone will steal the design, which would happen anyway, lets be honest

 

11 minutes ago, Skara said:

 

 

That's because you can't give a Ferrari to someone who's just got his license unless you want to attend his funeral the next day or so 

 

you could give someone who just got their licence a ferrari, but they wouldn't know how to drive it, never mind getting it to a speed to crash it fatally 🤣

 

1 minute ago, Rogerborg said:

 

It is, all Specnas come with an M90 and an M120.  You'll want that M90 back in, or buy an M100.  There's very little use for an M120 in the UK unless it's for a DMR at a site with a low power limit, or if you're removing teeth and reducing cylinder volume.

 

Normally I'd agree with using a Maple Leaf omega nub with a Maple Leaf bucking, but you may have a flat hop as stock in your Specna.  If your bucking looks like this, it actually works quite well with a Maple Leaf hop.  However, it's likely to over-hop 0.2g.  I'd suggest 0.28g for woodland.

 

However, I'd urge you to play with it unmeddled first (with the M90 spring) before doing anything to it, if only to get a baseline of its performance.  A lot of airsoft "upgrades" can be sidegrades or downgrades if the parts don't work well together or you get a QC reject.

 

 

where would i find that part? i didnt see anything like that in the hop unit when i took it out, so im not sure where id find it

[Rogerborg]

39 minutes ago, SoupyXo said:

where would i find that part? i didnt see anything like that in the hop unit when i took it out, so im not sure where id find it

 

Here's an SHS hop unit for illustration purposes only, the Specna is similar.

 

 

It's under the hop arm.  The arm presses down on the nub, which pressed on the bucking.

 

You'll generally want to remove the hop arm, and the nub, before putting the barrel and bucking in or out, then replace the nub, and then the hop arm on top of it.

 

If you've pulled the barrel and bucking out without realising that the nub was sitting on top of it, it might still be in there, or it might have dropped out and vanished into hyperspace.  If it's all back together now, I'd get the hop arm out and see if the nub is still in there.  There's a pin running side-to-side that the arm rotates on, you just push it out then the arm will lift up and out.

 

A typical nub is just a little cylinder of rubber, it might be solid, or more often hollow.  If you have lost the nub, then the traditional bodge is to cut a piece of biro tube, or a section of insulated wire (18g or 16g), or just the insulation from the wire.  Essentially anything round that will fit inside the C section on the end of the hop arm, with a little give in it.

 

However, I mention the "flat hop" style nub because your Specna may have a flat-hop bucking with no internal mound.  If so, then a regular cylindrical nub won't put enough pressure on it to hop anything.

 

None of this is a concern if you're replacing the bucking with a Maple Leaf: they're great buckings and pretty tolerant of nubs. You can throw just about any nub in there and it'll work, whether it's a standard round, Maple Leaf Omega, H-nub or just about anything else you fancy.

[ak2m4]

50 minutes ago, SoupyXo said:

an AB++ is programmable, but it isn't as good as it could be

 

What improvements would you make? 

 

 

[Rogerborg]

5 minutes ago, ak2m4 said:

What improvements would you make? 

 

Good question. I've very happy with my AB++, and I can't think of anything else that I'd need it to do.

 

Active Braking or pre-cock, 2-5 round bursts, ROF reduction, DMR delay, low battery alarm.  Binary trigger is the only thing missing, but that's for wanker-guns.

 

I might eventually go optical on my MP5K, but only because the trigger has mechanical issues that an optical mosfet could ameliorate, not for any extra features.

 

[Guest SoupyXo]

Just now, ak2m4 said:

 

What improvements would you make? 

 

 

if i had a mosfet to test for myself, id be able to answer with a more experienced answer, but since ive only seen feature lists and a few videos, i can't really comment, but im sure there's room for a hell of a lot more things they can do.

 

as far as i can tell from what I've seen, with a mosfet, you're bound to either semi or full auto, with no option to switch firing modes using the selector switch, but again, i don't have one and cant comment fully, so I'm basing it entirely off of what I've seen in videos.

 

giving the switch the ability to change fire modes using the brains of the mosfet with some built in memory, you'd be able to have multiple modes, and have each mode have its own fire rate, pre-cocking and active braking etc, which isn't something ive noticed as being a thing on the current selection (ive only seen titans, ab++ and warfets being used in build video's thus far) 

 

having a sensored brushless motor that the mosfet can communicate with, so the mosfet knows what position the rotor is at, and can have the option for different levels of ''boost'' or ''overclocking'' and even as far as being able to change the degree of the sensors, so it can do more for free (with the potential of the magnets inside it to explode magnificently if it isnt done properly)

 

enabling the use of data logging for temperature monitoring, and a few other metrics would be good, but thats the nerdy shit that the average player doesnt care about... i could go on, but 

[ak2m4]

10 minutes ago, Rogerborg said:

 

Good question. I've very happy with my AB++, and I can't think of anything else that I'd need it to do.

 

Active Braking or pre-cock, 2-5 round bursts, ROF reduction, DMR delay, low battery alarm.  Binary trigger is the only thing missing, but that's for wanker-guns.

 

I might eventually go optical on my MP5K, but only because the trigger has mechanical issues that an optical mosfet could ameliorate, not for any extra features.

 

 

Agreed, for the price point it does everything I need.  It's a good solution for a standard trigger switch, gives you the option of hot-swapping and been proved to be pretty reliable.