Tm Ngrs - to Upgrade or Not?

[C-Diddy]

I have a completely stock TM NGRS, and use .25 BBs which the gun hops fairly well. I have no idea what the FPS is - probably around 260-270 I would imagine, and the gun is accurate to about 40-45m.

 

So why, having said that there is absolutely nothing wrong with the gun as is, am I contemplating upgrading it? The whole reason I bought a TM was their (deserved) reputation of performance and reliability out of the box, but I would like to squeeze more range out if it. My thinking is that heavier BBs, .30 or .32s would help, however, with TMs being manufactured to comply with Japan's lower FPS limits, it would need upgrading to lift the heavier BBs, right, and I'm a little hesitant to do that. 

 

So my question is as simple as the title suggests; should I take my stock gun that I am pretty happy with, and risk ruining everything that makes a TM as good as they are by changing a few bits and bobs to squeeze another 10-15m out of it?

 

I'd be really interested to hear both sides.

 

Thanks.

[EDcase]

The only reason I can think to increase fps is to make the BBs fly faster so there is less time for the target to dodge the incoming shots.

But I don't know if its worth it when the gun shoots well as it is

Edited March 21, 2021 by EDcase

[alxndrhll]

I feel like you’ve done everything folks tend to recommend so far in terms of throwing after market parts in a RIF, you’ve run it stock for a bit and found the things you’d want to improve.

 

Given it’s a bit more range you’re looking for I’d be looking at swapping out your inner barrel (which will bump the FPS a little), bucking and hop nub. Prometheus 6.03 tend to be the favoured inner barrels (readily available, not the cheapest... but also not the most expensive), as far as buckings and nubs go the general go to options seem to be either Prometheus or Firefly. As you’ve noted in your post, you’re ultimately just looking to be able to lift heavier ammo.

 

Caveat that if you wanted to keep it a bit more budget you don’t ‘need’ to swap the barrel. I just habitually swap out stock barrels when I swap out buckings/nubs because I’ve already got it taken apart.

 

Popping a beefier spring in there is also worth considering. Though worth noting this will likely increase the strain on stock parts (which may well start the train of additional things needing to be swapped after time) and won’t actually do much/anything for your range it’ll just mean the BBs get where they’re going quicker.

Edited March 21, 2021 by alxndrhll

[C-Diddy]

37 minutes ago, alxndrhll said:

I feel like you’ve done everything folks tend to recommend so far in terms of throwing after market parts in a RIF, you’ve run it stock for a bit and found the things you’d want to improve.

 

Given it’s a bit more range you’re looking for I’d be looking at swapping out your inner barrel (which will bump the FPS a little), bucking and hop nub. Prometheus 6.03 tend to be the favoured inner barrels (readily available, not the cheapest... but also not the most expensive), as far as buckings and nubs go the general go to options seem to be either Prometheus or Firefly. As you’ve noted in your post, you’re ultimately just looking to be able to lift heavier ammo.

 

Caveat that if you wanted to keep it a bit more budget you don’t ‘need’ to swap the barrel. I just habitually swap out stock barrels when I swap out buckings/nubs because I’ve already got it taken apart.

 

Popping a beefier spring in there is also worth considering. Though worth noting this will likely increase the strain on stock parts (which may well start the train of additional things needing to be swapped after time) and won’t actually do much/anything for your range it’ll just mean the BBs get where they’re going quicker.

One of the upgrade options I looked at included an M95 spring, modifying the piston and fitting an s-hop with custom hop arm and nub. Not sure though. 

 

I should add that I'm not confident carrying out any work myself. Maybe I'll use the Cyma AK as a training platform before cracking this one open, lol

[alxndrhll]

7 minutes ago, C-Diddy said:

One of the upgrade options I looked at included an M95 spring, modifying the piston and fitting an s-hop with custom hop arm and nub. Not sure though. 

 

I should add that I'm not confident carrying out any work myself. Maybe I'll use the Cyma AK as a training platform before cracking this one open, lol

Given what it is you actually want to improve I’m not sure too much messing around in the gearbox itself is necessary, and getting to the hop/barrel in an NGRS is extremely easy (assuming it’s an AR/416).

 

I don’t do my own teching on AEGs in terms of wiring and gearbox work (I’ve only recently gone back to them after a few years on the HPA side of the fence), but I’d generally recommend everyone gets familiar with the process of taking a hop and barrel set up apart and putting it back together, be that installation of replacement parts or simply taking it down for cleaning and reassembling.

Cleaning inner barrels should be routine maintenance (I’d argue regularly cleaning your barrel is the best upgrade to accuracy you can get), and hop buckings are a consumable part. It’s easy work to do, so I’d definitely advise getting familiar with it.  

Edited March 21, 2021 by alxndrhll

[Asomodai]

Change the barrel to a tight bore 6.01mm to get some more free FPS which doesn't strain the gearbox. Change bucking to a Prommy Purple and a large nub to lift heavier bbs. See how it performs after that. 

[AlphaBear]

Ahhhh to upgrade or not to upgrade that’s the question.... the answer fortunately is simple. Do you want to lob that bb an extra 10m to 15m with reasonable right groupings? If so then some simple upgrades are as follows. I’ll categorise these as evasive and non-evasive. Basically evasive means you need to crack open the gearbox. 
 

1. Non evasive - a prommy spring guide ( the one with the bearings). This will bump up your FPS by 5-10 depending on the compression. 
2. Prommy tight bore (speaks for itself). FPS bump approx 5-10fps. 
3. Prommy purple hop with a soft Prommy nub. I’d flat hop it. Nothing else. Forget about S-hop and all other hops. Waste of time. In fact the prommy purple will lift up to 0.32 standard. in fact don't bother with the flat hopping.... leave the purple as is..
 

Evasive upgrades. 
 

4. Power spring. Installing this means you need to crack up the gearbox. You have options on how to install the spring. Note the stock spring is attached to the Piston. Check the videos out. 

5. I’d change the nozzle for one with an internal o-ring. The stock Marui nozzles don’t have these.

 

Upgrading a NGRS is really a piece of cake. Except when you have to install a Titan and then you need to mill out a bit of the gearbox. 

Edited March 21, 2021 by AlphaBear
Changed point number 3

[MistakenMexican]

My opinion would be to leave it until something breaks, then send it to someone like Eagle 6 to have a mosfet and the necessary upgrades for higher FPS and better range.

[alxndrhll]

27 minutes ago, Asomodai said:

Change the barrel to a tight bore 6.01mm to get some more free FPS which doesn't strain the gearbox. Change bucking to a Prommy Purple and a large nub to lift heavier bbs. See how it performs after that. 

YMMV but if you did opt for a 6.01 be prepared to clean it very regularly. I tend to clean out my barrels after ever game day anyway, it’s part of my ‘wind down ritual’ after a day running around like an idiot. On the odd occasion I’ve even done a barrel clean on longer 6.01’s during the lunch break. I’d tend to advise 6.03-6.05 for anything over 130mm-ish (pistol barrels) if it’s semi/burst/full autoing (generally speaking the more BBs going down the barrel, the less inclined I am to go with a 6.01).

 

I personally wouldn’t go to 6.01 on anything longer than a pistol barrel, ultimately up to you but felt worth mentioning in regard to how prepared you are to clean it out regularly.

Edited March 21, 2021 by alxndrhll

[AlphaBear]

Why wait until it breaks? A stock TM will go for years. The weakest points are firstly the plastic bushes and then the gears. My logic is simple. If you want that extra 10m plus then try the non-evasive upgrades. If you feel you need more then either do it yourself if you’re confident enough or send it away to someone else. A standard labour charge is likely to be £100 plus parts on top. 

[C-Diddy]

Thanks to all who have contributed.

 

I'm most definitely leaning towards the none evasive options. Barrel and hop seems simplest. I'm really hesitant to interfere with anything more because I am happy as it is. Think I'll check out Eagle 6 for the parts and go from there.

 

Again, appreciate your input.

[Druid799]

My two penneth worth is if you MUST have that extra 15-25ft change the hop Rubber and nub first , then a tight bore but just leave the gearbox alone all the jokes about fairy dust and Marui magic aside I will say with 100% conviction it’ll never be the same again AND there’s a well above average chance it’s going to go tits up on you . I’ve been running TM recoils for the past 12yrs (matter of fact I still have my first two a 14yr old socom and a 12yr old AK74su)and I’ve had all the models bar a 417 (has to have been around 16ish I’ve had ?) and the only ones I’ve had to die on me where three that i’d had ‘upgraded’ two by ‘professionals’ and one by a respected site tech guy and one of the professionals cost an absolute arm&leg and was treated as a Demi-god when it comes to TM’s but they all still died on me . All I do to mine is if it’s still got a Tamiya I swap it to a deans and if it’s a Sopmod I completely get rid of all the QC battery gubbins and solder a deans on wiring direct too the the stock tube but that’s it . I’m a great believer if you want super dooper range then get a sniper or step up your field craft to get closer to your target ? . Ultimately though it’s your gun your choice , me personally id say run it stock and once we’re all back playing again try and track down players on site who’ve had there’s upgraded and have a chat with them . T’internet is full of opinions and like I always say in this situation “an opinion is like an arse hole , everyone has one and there frequently full of shit !” 
live long and prosper ! 🤘

[Adolf Hamster]

heavier ammo will help with range, and you can get it to lift .32's without bumping the power up.

 

i wouldn't bother with an S-hop, a lot of effort to give you a shorter-lived solution to a maple leaf/omega combo, although try the stock tm setup to see if it can do it already.

 

power is a tricky one, because as much as folk like to praise the tm fairy dust, it aint gonna make up for running a 0.6j gun on a 1.3j field.

 

 

[AlphaBear]

Me with 350fps with a TM recoil..... 

 

[C-Diddy]

20 minutes ago, Druid799 said:

My two penneth worth is if you MUST have that extra 15-25ft change the hop Rubber and nub first , then a tight bore but just leave the gearbox alone all the jokes about fairy dust and Marui magic aside I will say with 100% conviction it’ll never be the same again AND there’s a well above average chance it’s going to go tits up on you . I’ve been running TM recoils for the past 12yrs (matter of fact I still have my first two a 14yr old socom and a 12yr old AK74su)and I’ve had all the models bar a 417 (has to have been around 16ish I’ve had ?) and the only ones I’ve had to die on me where three that i’d had ‘upgraded’ two by ‘professionals’ and one by a respected site tech guy and one of the professionals cost an absolute arm&leg and was treated as a Demi-god when it comes to TM’s but they all still died on me . All I do to mine is if it’s still got a Tamiya I swap it to a deans and if it’s a Sopmod I completely get rid of all the QC battery gubbins and solder a deans on wiring direct too the the stock tube but that’s it . I’m a great believer if you want super dooper range then get a sniper or step up your field craft to get closer to your target ? . Ultimately though it’s your gun your choice , me personally id say run it stock and once we’re all back playing again try and track down players on site who’ve had there’s upgraded and have a chat with them . T’internet is full of opinions and like I always say in this situation “an opinion is like an arse hole , everyone has one and there frequently full of shit !” 
live long and prosper ! 🤘

100%. I've read a comment you made before about keeping your TM's stock, which is adding to me being reluctant to anything. I think a lot of this is a boredom factor kicking in as we're not able to play again yet. I kind of feel like I need to be doing something to it.

 

I do have a Tamiya connector that will be getting swapped for Deans and the SOPMOD is going to be exchanged for my PTS EPS, so I'll sort the wiring out and go from there.

[Druid799]

2 hours ago, C-Diddy said:

100%. I've read a comment you made before about keeping your TM's stock, which is adding to me being reluctant to anything. I think a lot of this is a boredom factor kicking in as we're not able to play again yet. I kind of feel like I need to be doing something to it.

 

I do have a Tamiya connector that will be getting swapped for Deans and the SOPMOD is going to be exchanged for my PTS EPS, so I'll sort the wiring out and go from there.

Just want to pass on my experience and cock ups and ‘hopefully’ help others by-pass my mistakes  ? 😉

Don’t get me wrong I do totally get where players come from when they say about the greater range and faster moving BBs of an upgraded one but ultimately I genuinely don’t think the pros out weight the cons of an upgraded TM (for me anyway)I just think it’s a want too not a need too situation ?
I’ve always been of the mind that when your playing woodland your field craft is more important than how good your gun is , if I can get in close to you then it’s immaterial if my gun will fire a BB into the next county or not but the laser beam accuracy of the TM does mean that when I do get closer to you your screwed because I know if I do miss then it’s on me not the gun . 
Ammo wise me and my mates have settled on .28 as the perfect BB for us , sets just the right balance for what we want performance wise . 
Do hope I’ve helped and not chucked another wrench in the works ! 😁👍

[alxndrhll]

Irrelevant of the outcome of what you choose to do you at least know what your benchmark is, that's generally the biggest foul for me when swapping things around. Ultimately the less you change, the easier it is to swap back if you're not happy with the results.

 

I'm all for folks trying new shit in RIFs, as much as we wish they were no two RIFs/parts will ever be identical. The only true way of knowing if any difference has been made, for better or worse, is knowing what you're comparing against.

[C-Diddy]

28 minutes ago, Druid799 said:

Just want to pass on my experience and cock ups and ‘hopefully’ help others by-pass my mistakes  ? 😉

Don’t get me wrong I do totally get where players come from when they say about the greater range and faster moving BBs of an upgraded one but ultimately I genuinely don’t think the pros out weight the cons of an upgraded TM (for me anyway)I just think it’s a want too not a need too situation ?
I’ve always been of the mind that when your playing woodland your field craft is more important than how good your gun is , if I can get in close to you then it’s immaterial if my gun will fire a BB into the next county or not but the laser beam accuracy of the TM does mean that when I do get closer to you your screwed because I know if I do miss then it’s on me not the gun . 
Ammo wise me and my mates have settled on .28 as the perfect BB for us , sets just the right balance for what we want performance wise . 
Do hope I’ve helped and not chucked another wrench in the works ! 😁👍

No wrench slung in these works pal! I think you're bang on with the want to, rather than need to. 

After a solid couple of hours debating this and some solid Google and YouTubing, I've decided to leave the gun alone for now...but not quite. I still want that PTS stock on there and a Deans, so I'll order a few pairs of already-wired Deans connectors, some heat shrink tubing and set to with the soldering iron. As I haven't soldered anything since school though, I'll ease into this by converting one of my other guns first. 

When we get back on the field I'll run with .28s and see how I get on.

Anyone got any recommendations for suppliers of connectors or will any airsoft/RC supplier do? And most pre-wired connectors that I've seen come with approx 100mm of wire. Would that be enough for an extending stock on a 416? Probably a gash question but I'd rather get it right and only have to do it once.

6 minutes ago, alxndrhll said:

Irrelevant of the outcome of what you choose to do you at least know what your benchmark is, that's generally the biggest foul for me when swapping things around. Ultimately the less you change, the easier it is to swap back if you're not happy with the results.

 

I'm all for folks trying new shit in RIFs, as much as we wish they were no two RIFs/parts will ever be identical. The only true way of knowing if any difference has been made, for better or worse, is knowing what you're comparing against.

I subscribe to the same theory about changing things. I don't understand someone paying £600 for a "top of the line" gun, then spending as much again replacing everything that makes it expensive in the first place, sometimes without even using it. 

[alxndrhll]

23 minutes ago, C-Diddy said:

I subscribe to the same theory about changing things. I don't understand someone paying £600 for a "top of the line" gun, then spending as much again replacing everything that makes it expensive in the first place, sometimes without even using it. 

 

I've largely given up on trying to figure out where I fall, the NGRS I own has all the bells and whistles in it and I bought it second hand as such (I've used stock ones for a few games, but don't own one so there is a definite degree of hypocrisy on my side). I guess I very much subscribe to 'you do you hun' (though I should be careful throwing that around after what happened last time), and accept that often buying something that simply doesn't improve something and having to swallow the pride and rip it out just comes with the territory.

 

When it comes to buying shit our brains often take over, the reaction generally dictated by subconcious (and occasionally entirely concious) expectations. Which is why it's good to know what it is you actually want to improve, I knew I wanted a MOSFET (happens to be a Titan but that wasn't a specific I was after) because I'm coming back to AEGs from HPA and wanted to keep as close to the instantaneous action as I could. I dare say unless it's a RIF exclusively for CQB ther aren't many that would actively turn down the opportunity for more range, that's just a matter of weighing up what it's costing you (and not in the financial sense). The general concensus seemingly being that reliability/longevity (they seem to be used interchangably in this hobby despite not really meaning the same thing), I'm more than happy to conceed the RIF needing more maintenance/throwing a strop and having to go back in the car on a game day for those improvements.

 

It's all very subjective based on your own list of priorities you want for/from a RIF. Once you've got that list squared away, you're golden .

Edited March 21, 2021 by alxndrhll

[C-Diddy]

8 minutes ago, alxndrhll said:

 

I've largely given up on trying to figure out where I fall, the NGRS I own has all the bells and whistles in it and I bought it second hand as such (I've used stock ones for a few games, but don't own one so there is a definite degree of hypocrisy on my side). I guess I very much subscribe to 'you do you hun' (though I should be careful throwing that around after what happened last time), and accept that often buying something that simply doesn't improve something and having to swallow the pride and rip it out just comes with the territory.

 

When it comes to buying shit our brains often take over, the reaction generally dictated by subconcious (and occasionally entirely concious) expectations. Which is why it's good to know what it is you actually want to improve, I knew I wanted a MOSFET (happens to be a Titan but that wasn't a specific I was after) because I'm coming back to AEGs from HPA and wanted to keep as close to the instantaneous action as I could. I dare say unless it's a RIF exclusively for CQB ther aren't many that would actively turn down the opportunity for more range, that's just a matter of weighing up what it's costing you (and not in the financial sense). The general concensus seemingly being that reliability/longevity (they seem to be used interchangably in this hobby despite not really meaning the same thing), I'm more than happy to conceed the RIF needing more maintenance/throwing a strop and having to go back in the car on a game day for those improvements.

 

It's all very subjective based on your own list of priorities you want for/from a RIF. Once you've got that list squared away, you're golden .

I get that feeling and I absolutely have no problem with anyone giving their RIF the "Trigger's broom" treatment. However people spend their money is up to them. If they get enjoyment from it, crack on. I always come back to that; it has to be fun and enjoyable. And I was there for your last "you do you" comment 😆

 

When I got my M14 upgraded I knew exactly what I wanted; revert it back from the DMR conversion cluster that had happened, replace the Fisher Price-sized Tamiya to Deans and fit a MOSFET (Warfet). It's now incredible. With my TM though, I'm overthinking it, and trying to fix something that doesn't need it. Honestly, if the TM 416s were wired like any normal M4-style AEG, I'd have swapped the stock over and been happy 😂

[THE FNG]

9 hours ago, AlphaBear said:

1. Non evasive - a prommy spring guide ( the one with the bearings). This will bump up your FPS by 5-10 depending on the compression. 
 

Non evasive for a spring guide? Do you not have to open the gearbox for a spring guide?

[AlphaBear]

5 hours ago, THE FNG said:

Non evasive for a spring guide? Do you not have to open the gearbox for a spring guide?

Nope. It’s in the buffer tube. Unscrew it. Take the old one out. Put a new one in. Voila. 
 

A NGRS gearbox is not like a conventional V2 gearbox. 

Edited March 22, 2021 by AlphaBear

[rj1986]

My input, I run it one of 2 ways normally:

 

- Stock with deans + barrel/hop rubber upgrade

- "Upper half build" + fet - so piston+head, nozzle, spring guide and spring, bearings, mosfet and barrel+hop. I keep the gears the same until they go bang.

 

I normally take one built rifle with me, plus a stock version so i know that if the upgraded one shits the bed, I can always go with one I know works (touch wood) and have no more drama's.

[EvilMonkee]

@alphabear  Grammar Nazi here....its INVASIVE not evasive....thank you

[AlphaBear]

50 minutes ago, EvilMonkee said:

@alphabear  Grammar Nazi here....its INVASIVE not evasive....thank you

Oh yeah 😂