What makes Airsoft a joke

[Prisce]

1 minute ago, Seth_K said:

 What do you want to experience?

A world without idiots.

[Tackle]

47 minutes ago, Rogerborg said:

 

You're asking that in a @Seth_K thread.

 

Lol, I genuinely forgot I was on Seths thread, his reply would probably be:

"we want my own dedicated satellite, which will shoot laser beams that track the flight of every BB fired, & registering all hits so if you neglect to call it, you'll get a text msg or WhatsApp notification letting you know" 😏

[Seth_Erebor]

Just now, Tackle said:

Lol, I genuinely forgot I was on Seths thread, his reply would probably be:

"we want my own dedicated satellite, which will shoot laser beams that track the flight of every BB fired, & registering all hits so if you neglect to call it, you'll get a text msg or WhatsApp notification letting you know" 😏

 

lol shame April 1st is so far away, I could have some fun with that idea. Maybe next year.

[PopRocket123]

4 hours ago, Jaylordofwaargh said:

so my most visited site (combat south woodland) is all (mostly) simple game play - resporn is flag or a couple of set point, (no medics) z objectives are (relatively) easy to find. but from what i can work out CS is considered a s/m site. maps are given out to all (or those that want them) so games are attackers take this/these objectives resporn is x and defenders have y lives at here and here then switch. winners are the colour that does it quickest. maybe because im still newish to this that i find that quite satisfying for a days pew (at the moment....)

They're my go to site. They're nearest for a start, a decent sized game area with enough variation and key locations to feel different. Never had a bad time there even in the pissing rain cos then there's fewer people which means more ambushes

[Jaylordofwaargh]

7 hours ago, Seth_K said:

 

What more do we need? What don't we need!

 

You could lay out the entire sport and upgrade every part of it two times over.

 

Do you agree that we play Airsoft for the experience, much like most forms of entertainment?

 

Then the real question is this: What do you want to experience?

I question the use of the word sport when it comes to airsofting but that is likely a different thread title...

 

What upgrades/improvements would you make to the hobby? 

[Rogerborg]

9 hours ago, Seth_K said:

Then the real question is this: What do you want to experience?

 

I'd reply with something acerbic about slinging balls, but I've just bought a portable PA system to play Hanoi Hannah propaganda at a Nam-Sim purely for the giggles of it, so I really don't have the moral high ground here.

 

[Tackle]

2 hours ago, Jaylordofwaargh said:

I question the use of the word sport when it comes to airsofting but that is likely a different thread title...

I always refer to it as a sport, two well balanced (hopefully) teams, each with an objective that equals a "win", ideally played to a set of rules & a sense of fair play 😉.

Sounds like a sport to me ?

[Seth_Erebor]

3 hours ago, Jaylordofwaargh said:

I question the use of the word sport when it comes to airsofting but that is likely a different thread title...

 

What upgrades/improvements would you make to the hobby? 

 

Oh boy, where do I start. 

 

The very first thing is standardised parts,  universal compatibility and the availability of those parts.

 

Then a unification of sites, independence with communication. Serial cheaters get squeezed out, honest players have great games. Ideas are shared, small business thrive. 

 

True UK-based manufacturing of RIFs. Top QC, customer service and meaningful updates between releases. 

 

Want a RIF that hits up to 100m+ straight out of the box, every single part has to be looked at and looked at again.

 

To quote Any Given Sunday:”The inches we need are all around us.”

 

Like a formula one racing team, if you think you can’t beat your performance next year then just get out, A players always find a way to push it further, faster, higher. So next year it’s 150m, year after 200m. 

 

Sure, sometimes you don’t hit your goal, but mentally did you think you could do it? If you don’t, you’ve already lost. 

 

So when someone says what I would do with Airsoft, all I see is an entire industry worth of challenges. 

 

That doesn’t make a lick of sense does it 😂

[Guest Yukarin]

15 minutes ago, Seth_K said:

 

Oh boy, where do I start. 

 

The very first thing is standardised parts,  universal compatibility and the availability of those parts.

 

Then a unification of sites, independence with communication. Serial cheaters get squeezed out, honest players have great games. Ideas are shared, small business thrive. 

 

True UK-based manufacturing of RIFs. Top QC, customer service and meaningful updates between releases. 

 

Want a RIF that hits up to 100m+ straight out of the box, every single part has to be looked at and looked at again.

 

To quote Any Given Sunday:”The inches we need are all around us.”

 

Like a formula one racing team, if you think you can’t beat your performance next year then just get out, A players always find a way to push it further, faster, higher. So next year it’s 150m, year after 200m. 

 

Sure, sometimes you don’t hit your goal, but mentally did you think you could do it? If you don’t, you’ve already lost. 

 

So when someone says what I would do with Airsoft, all I see is an entire industry worth of challenges. 

 

That doesn’t make a lick of sense does it 😂

>standardized parts

different platforms have different size restrictions manufacturers have to work around, this would also hinder innovation, discourage R&D.

>unification of sites

might as well nationalise them... 

>uk-based manufacturing

yeah i'll spend a grand to get a gun that performs the same as one that costs not even half of that.

>RIF that hits 100m+ straight out of the box

and break the law, no doubt

 

I'm convinced you're a nutcase.

[ImTriggerHappy]

3 hours ago, UKCYukarin said:

>standardized parts

different platforms have different size restrictions manufacturers have to work around, this would also hinder innovation, discourage R&D.

>unification of sites

might as well nationalise them... 

>uk-based manufacturing

yeah i'll spend a grand to get a gun that performs the same as one that costs not even half of that.

>RIF that hits 100m+ straight out of the box

and break the law, no doubt

 

I'm convinced you're a nutcase.

 

>Standardized parts

Totally achievable as yes different platforms have different requirements but each type should be manufactured to unified standard. 

Just think two of the biggest issues are AOE and shimming which is a joke with todays manufacturing ability.

 

>Unification of sites

Totally agree a general set of rules regarding behaviour and play across all would be good. Also a shared list of all banned players so sites know who to keep an eye on and even a nationwide insta ban for aggressive behaviour.

 

>UK based manufacturing 

Yes under the current economic climate the UK is expensive but TM prices are achievable and I for one would rather put my money into the UKs economy and  jobs than keep bolstering China. 

And so would a high proportion of the players not tied to a tight budget.

 

>Rif that hits 100m+ straight out the box.

Never going to happen as most are lucky to shoot 40+ now. Airsofters measure distance the same way as most guys measure their dicks. 99% of claimed distances are complete bullshit.

But even so why unlawful?

 

Agreed he is odd but your response was not balanced or well thought out either

[Rogerborg]

3 hours ago, ImTriggerHappy said:

>Standardized parts

Totally achievable as yes different platforms have different requirements but each type should be manufactured to unified standard.

 

They should be today, as far as quality goes:

 

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/15/part/1/chapter/2/crossheading/what-statutory-rights-are-there-under-a-goods-contract/enacted

 

Nobody is deliberately making shoddy gearboxes, they're just making them at a variety of price points to suit different budgets.  Personally I think competition and consumer choice is a good thing, as it makes getting into the hobbysport achievable even for those on a low budget.  It drives innovation too: quick change / tension adjusting springs aren't "standard", but I'm very glad that they're an option now.

 

Out of interest, what unified standard would you mandate, and how would you define it?

 

Leaving aside everything behind it, just on the barrel alone you'd have to consider material, nominal bore, allowed deviation from that bore, straightness and allowed deflection, hardness, polish, and why not mandate the profile of the crown while we're at it.

 

What values would you require for those?  Whose standards would you choose?  How would you monitor who was actually producing to that standard?

 

And here's the bit that baffles me: how do you imagine that you would you stop toys that don't meet those standards from being sold, or used, in the UK?

 

 

 

Quote

>Unification of sites

Totally agree a general set of rules regarding behaviour and play across all would be good. Also a shared list of all banned players so sites know who to keep an eye on and even a nationwide insta ban for aggressive behaviour.

 

Eh, they're more what you'd call guidelines than actual rules.  I'd prefer to see sites enforcing the rules they already have first, rather adopting someone else's rule set which they won't really enforce either.

 

 

 

Quote

>UK based manufacturing 

Yes under the current economic climate the UK is expensive but TM prices are achievable and I for one would rather put my money into the UKs economy and  jobs than keep bolstering China. 

And so would a high proportion of the players not tied to a tight budget.

 

Even assuming that manufacturing costs were the same, Toyko Marui prices are not achievable unless and until you reach Toyko Marui volume of sales.

 

How do you get there, starting from scratch, and competing on quality rather than price?

 

Bear in mind that TM have long since amortised the cost of development and tooling for many of their toy guns. 

 

A UK based competitor would have to eat those up front costs just to get in the market.  They'd be reliant on selling globally, not just in the UK, and they'd be competing at the top end against Toyko Marui (and Systema for the real airsoft nobility).

 

What compelling argument could you make that UK made toys would be superior in precision and quality control to Japanese made toys?  It's not like we have a reputation for quality manufacturing to point at.

 

 

Quote

Never going to happen as most are lucky to shoot 40+ now. Airsofters measure distance the same way as most guys measure their dicks. 99% of claimed distances are complete bullshit.

 

No argument there.

 

[E21A]

18 hours ago, Prisce said:

A world without idiots.

 

Best of luck with that! 

[Guest Yukarin]

5 hours ago, ImTriggerHappy said:

 

>Standardized parts

Totally achievable as yes different platforms have different requirements but each type should be manufactured to unified standard. 

Just think two of the biggest issues are AOE and shimming which is a joke with todays manufacturing ability.

 

>Unification of sites

Totally agree a general set of rules regarding behaviour and play across all would be good. Also a shared list of all banned players so sites know who to keep an eye on and even a nationwide insta ban for aggressive behaviour.

 

>UK based manufacturing 

Yes under the current economic climate the UK is expensive but TM prices are achievable and I for one would rather put my money into the UKs economy and  jobs than keep bolstering China. 

And so would a high proportion of the players not tied to a tight budget.

 

>Rif that hits 100m+ straight out the box.

Never going to happen as most are lucky to shoot 40+ now. Airsofters measure distance the same way as most guys measure their dicks. 99% of claimed distances are complete bullshit.

But even so why unlawful?

 

Agreed he is odd but your response was not balanced or well thought out either

Roger's post pretty much explains what I was getting at in detail.

[Prisce]

47 minutes ago, E21A said:

 

Best of luck with that! 

Unfortunately,  your more than likely right... but it was a question of what I’d like to experience, and I can safely say that would be something I’d likely never forget!

[sonofsammo]

8 minutes ago, Prisce said:

A world without idiots...

Go to Nova Scotia... Awesome, idiot free location. 
Well, not entirely true. Go to Nova Scotia, anywhere but Halifax. I think they have a state law whereby all Nova Scotian idiots MUST relocate to Halifax...

[E21A]

35 minutes ago, Prisce said:

Unfortunately,  your more than likely right... but it was a question of what I’d like to experience, and I can safely say that would be something I’d likely never forget!

 

Shouldnt actually be too hard to achieve, just remove all the warning labels and let nature take its course 😂

[ImTriggerHappy]

2 hours ago, Rogerborg said:

 

They should be today, as far as quality goes:

 

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/15/part/1/chapter/2/crossheading/what-statutory-rights-are-there-under-a-goods-contract/enacted

 

Nobody is deliberately making shoddy gearboxes, they're just making them at a variety of price points to suit different budgets.  Personally I think competition and consumer choice is a good thing, as it makes getting into the hobbysport achievable even for those on a low budget.  It drives innovation too: quick change / tension adjusting springs aren't "standard", but I'm very glad that they're an option now.

 

Out of interest, what unified standard would you mandate, and how would you define it?

 

Leaving aside everything behind it, just on the barrel alone you'd have to consider material, nominal bore, allowed deviation from that bore, straightness and allowed deflection, hardness, polish, and why not mandate the profile of the crown while we're at it.

 

What values would you require for those?  Whose standards would you choose?  How would you monitor who was actually producing to that standard?

 

And here's the bit that baffles me: how do you imagine that you would you stop toys that don't meet those standards from being sold, or used, in the UK?

 

 

 

Even assuming that manufacturing costs were the same, Toyko Marui prices are not achievable unless and until you reach Toyko Marui volume of sales.

 

How do you get there, starting from scratch, and competing on quality rather than price?

 

Bear in mind that TM have long since amortised the cost of development and tooling for many of their toy guns. 

 

A UK based competitor would have to eat those up front costs just to get in the market.  They'd be reliant on selling globally, not just in the UK, and they'd be competing at the top end against Toyko Marui (and Systema for the real airsoft nobility).

 

What compelling argument could you make that UK made toys would be superior in precision and quality control to Japanese made toys?  It's not like we have a reputation for quality manufacturing to point at.

 

 

Standardization is not really about the quality as that is still you get what you pay for. More along the lines that all parts should be made to be compatible and within a size tolerance standard so no more shimming or AOE type of issues. Simple enough but as 90% is made in sweat shops in china with little to no quality control it won't happen.

Barrels are not an issue as again high end ones are too expensive to be mainstream and they are already compatible across the board.

 

There are lots of British engineering firms that could retool fairly easy to manufacture airsoft guns and with the level of automation we could produce cheaper than most people give us credit for. I make lots of parts and none of it is rocket science. We couldn't compete with the cheap end but the higher definitely.

Never once said they would be superior but to he honest compared to china stuff they would definitely be.

[Rogerborg]

4 hours ago, ImTriggerHappy said:

Standardization is not really about the quality

 

OK...

 

4 hours ago, ImTriggerHappy said:

More along the lines that all parts should be made to be compatible and within a size tolerance standard so no more shimming or AOE type of issues. Simple enough but as 90% is made in sweat shops in china with little to no quality control it won't happen.

 

... but... you just said...

 

 

4 hours ago, ImTriggerHappy said:

There are lots of British engineering firms that could retool fairly easy to manufacture airsoft guns

 

They could, but why would they?

 

Honestly, I have no idea how big the airsoft market is, or how much of it a business would need to grab (against the opposition of the incumbents) to make the attempt worthwhile.

 

 

4 hours ago, ImTriggerHappy said:

and with the level of automation we could produce cheaper than most people give us credit for.

 

Er, do you imagine that Chinese sweatshops are making things by hand on lathes?

 

 

4 hours ago, ImTriggerHappy said:

I make lots of parts and none of it is rocket science. We couldn't compete with the cheap end but the higher definitely.

 

Bet your house on it?

 

 

4 hours ago, ImTriggerHappy said:

Never once said they would be superior but to he honest compared to china stuff they would definitely be.

 

If they're not superior to Tokyo Marui, why bother?  Who would buy them?

 

Anecdote: I bought a "proudly British made" clutch cable for my Royal Enfield.  It's rubbish.  The inner is far too long, and it's stickier and with a much stiffer pull than the original.  I  replaced it with an Indian made cable that works better and cost half as much, including postage from India.

 

Since I'm part of the target market, how would you go about convincing me that "British made" isn't synonymous with blokes in brown coats in sheds in the Midlands saying "Aah, that's close enough." ?

 

[Seth_Erebor]

 

 

 

 

3

7 hours ago, ImTriggerHappy said:

 

>Standardized parts

Totally achievable as yes different platforms have different requirements but each type should be manufactured to unified standard. 

Just think two of the biggest issues are AOE and shimming which is a joke with todays manufacturing ability.

 

>Unification of sites

Totally agree a general set of rules regarding behaviour and play across all would be good. Also a shared list of all banned players so sites know who to keep an eye on and even a nationwide insta ban for aggressive behaviour.

 

>UK based manufacturing 

Yes under the current economic climate the UK is expensive but TM prices are achievable and I for one would rather put my money into the UKs economy and  jobs than keep bolstering China. 

And so would a high proportion of the players not tied to a tight budget.

 

>Rif that hits 100m+ straight out the box.

Never going to happen as most are lucky to shoot 40+ now. Airsofters measure distance the same way as most guys measure their dicks. 99% of claimed distances are complete bullshit.

But even so why unlawful?

 

Agreed he is odd but your response was not balanced or well thought out either

 

First off, apologies for the formatting of my post, I was on mobile

 

Dare I say I was surprised you agreed with me, I'm touched.

 

Parts, it would just be nice to know what works in my RIF.

Recently, I send an excited email to a Tech with a list of parts I wanted to put into my sole RIF.

All were rejected as incompatible, I felt utterly dejected. 

 

Sites, the medic rules discussion was what made this pop into my mind. 

 

Same reasoning, if all the money goes back East, then what gets reinvested back into UK Airsoft.

 

Who is even researching BB design? 

 

 

 

 

3

8 hours ago, Rogerborg said:

 

They should be today, as far as quality goes:

 

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/15/part/1/chapter/2/crossheading/what-statutory-rights-are-there-under-a-goods-contract/enacted

 

Nobody is deliberately making shoddy gearboxes, they're just making them at a variety of price points to suit different budgets.  Personally I think competition and consumer choice is a good thing, as it makes getting into the hobbysport achievable even for those on a low budget.  It drives innovation too: quick change / tension adjusting springs aren't "standard", but I'm very glad that they're an option now.

 

Out of interest, what unified standard would you mandate, and how would you define it?

 

Leaving aside everything behind it, just on the barrel alone you'd have to consider material, nominal bore, allowed deviation from that bore, straightness and allowed deflection, hardness, polish, and why not mandate the profile of the crown while we're at it.

 

What values would you require for those?  Whose standards would you choose?  How would you monitor who was actually producing to that standard?

 

Is that info available before you make a purchase?

 

By standard, I didn't mean a minimum quality, more of a description. So we're all calling things the same name and showing what they are made of, etc.

 

 

 

 

8 hours ago, Rogerborg said:

And here's the bit that baffles me: how do you imagine that you would you stop toys that don't meet those standards from being sold, or used, in the UK?

 

 

Don't want to show our info, why should I buy it? What is Mr manufacturer hiding?

 

 

 

 

2

8 hours ago, Rogerborg said:

 

 

Eh, they're more what you'd call guidelines than actual rules.  I'd prefer to see sites enforcing the rules they already have first, rather adopting someone else's rule set which they won't really enforce either.

 

 

 

 

Even assuming that manufacturing costs were the same, Toyko Marui prices are not achievable unless and until you reach Toyko Marui volume of sales.

 

How do you get there, starting from scratch, and competing on quality rather than price?

 

Bear in mind that TM have long since amortised the cost of development and tooling for many of their toy guns. 

 

A UK based competitor would have to eat those up front costs just to get in the market.  They'd be reliant on selling globally, not just in the UK, and they'd be competing at the top end against Toyko Marui (and Systema for the real airsoft nobility).

 

The financials would be a tough sell.

 

 

 

 

8 hours ago, Rogerborg said:

What compelling argument could you make that UK made toys would be superior in precision and quality control to Japanese made toys?  It's not like we have a reputation for quality manufacturing to point at.

 

 

Made it a lot better at the same price. I'm not sure who could do that though.

 

 

6 hours ago, Prisce said:

Unfortunately,  your more than likely right... but it was a question of what I’d like to experience, and I can safely say that would be something I’d likely never forget!

 

Sounds interesting...

[Seth_Erebor]

 

 

 

29 minutes ago, Rogerborg said:

If they're not superior to Tokyo Marui, why bother?  Who would buy them?

 

Anecdote: I bought a "proudly British made" clutch cable for my Royal Enfield.  It's rubbish.  The inner is far too long, and it's stickier and with a much stiffer pull than the original.  I  replaced it with an Indian made cable that works better and cost half as much, including postage from India.

 

Since I'm part of the target market, how would you go about convincing me that "British made" isn't synonymous with blokes in brown coats in sheds in the Midlands saying "Aah, that's close enough." ?

 

 

[Jaylordofwaargh]

18 hours ago, Tackle said:

I always refer to it as a sport, two well balanced (hopefully) teams, each with an objective that equals a "win", ideally played to a set of rules & a sense of fair play 😉.

Sounds like a sport to me ?

point accepted, kinda😉

[ImTriggerHappy]

4 hours ago, Rogerborg said:

 

OK...

 

 

... but... you just said...

 

 

 

They could, but why would they?

 

Honestly, I have no idea how big the airsoft market is, or how much of it a business would need to grab (against the opposition of the incumbents) to make the attempt worthwhile.

 

 

 

Er, do you imagine that Chinese sweatshops are making things by hand on lathes?

 

 

 

Bet your house on it?

 

 

 

If they're not superior to Tokyo Marui, why bother?  Who would buy them?

 

Anecdote: I bought a "proudly British made" clutch cable for my Royal Enfield.  It's rubbish.  The inner is far too long, and it's stickier and with a much stiffer pull than the original.  I  replaced it with an Indian made cable that works better and cost half as much, including postage from India.

 

Since I'm part of the target market, how would you go about convincing me that "British made" isn't synonymous with blokes in brown coats in sheds in the Midlands saying "Aah, that's close enough." ?

 

 

You are totally misreading standardization. I am talking about mech boxes, gears, nozzles, pistons, hop units and all other mating parts being made to be compatible. Fine limit finishing would still be down to the manufacturer and that is where quality differences and price points come in. 

 

At the moment they wouldn't even think of it because to be honest most of them probably don't even know there is a market. But if an ailing engineering firm was approached at the right time with an opportunity from someone knowledgeable who knows. 

 

Airsoft market worldwide could be profitable but that would depend on trade deals as we are after all an island.

 

Why would people buy over TM, well some would some wouldn't personal choice. But one thing I do know is TM is not a good company for those outside Japan to deal with. Most airsoft manufacturers deal with international suppliers and distributors and have people push their product TM are apathetic when it comes to dealing with the UK sellers and pretty much the rest of the world. Why do think other than eagle 6 the only good places to buy spares are Japan. 

If a British firm could make a product within the same price and quality and be good to deal with then yes there could be potential. 

 

Are China behind in manufacturing, well no not on the large scale as they will spend good money on making millions of parts that earn them billions of dollars. But on the medium to small scale that is still pretty archaic in a lot of places. I have made lots of things for customers who have imported something from china to then find out is crap and have had to have it replaced over here. One job we manufacturer we prototyped and then it was taken to China. After 12 months it came back as none of the mid level firms could do it and maintain the quality. That job is made in England then goes to Ireland to be assembled by the customer who then sends it to their main place in America.  

 

I think you are thinking of british engineering in the 70s/80s. A lot has changed since Austin and Leyland. There is a reason F1 is principally built in the UK, why we build lots of satellites and aerospace stuff. We are good at it plus have a lot of other talent a short hop away in Europe. 

 

Whether a British firm will ever get involved I don't know but I think to say there is no potential is not quite right. Whether airsoft will ever pop on the radar of those who can is the bigger issue. Personally can't see it as it is still very niche.

 

 

 

 

 

[Rogerborg]

Despite the nay-saying, I hope that you're right.  I would like to buy British, and I take your point that a company that's tooled up but looking for business might be persuaded to take a punt on it.

 

On Tokyo Marui, the Facebook "fan site" makes a big point that TM don't sell or offer support outside of Japan and that's why they don't even have English language translations on their main web site.  It's pretty much "cry harder, gaijin".

 

https://www.facebook.com/pg/TokyoMarui/about/

[Seth_Erebor]

 

 

 

2

2 hours ago, ImTriggerHappy said:

I think you are thinking of british engineering in the 70s/80s. A lot has changed since Austin and Leyland. There is a reason F1 is principally built in the UK, why we build lots of satellites and aerospace stuff. We are good at it plus have a lot of other talent a short hop away in Europe. 

 

Whether a British firm will ever get involved I don't know but I think to say there is no potential is not quite right. Whether airsoft will ever pop on the radar of those who can is the bigger issue. Personally can't see it as it is still very niche.

 

1 hour ago, Rogerborg said:

Despite the nay-saying, I hope that you're right.  I would like to buy British, and I take your point that a company that's tooled up but looking for business might be persuaded to take a punt on it.

 

On Tokyo Marui, the Facebook "fan site" makes a big point that TM don't sell or offer support outside of Japan and that's why they don't even have English language translations on their main web site.  It's pretty much "cry harder, gaijin".

 

https://www.facebook.com/pg/TokyoMarui/about/

 

When I see an engineering challenge I think back to this video: