Should the UK leave the EU?

[Sitting Duck]

Well you and Hef can share the G&G tarty gun then

[ImTriggerHappy]

Well you and Hef can share the G&G tarty gun then

If you have one bring it.

[Samurai]

So if UK is spending £20075000000!!!

or 20 billion quid each year

from say working population paying £1 or more a day aprox or £365 a year or what ever other crap the maths wanna dress it up

Then please enlighten me wtf my money is going if that is not too much to ask.....

I can tell you that. Most of it goes to corrupt politicians' pockets.

I moved here from Hungary. One of the main reasons was exactly this issue. The only income Hungary has now is EU money. After Hungary joined the EU, investors came and built factories like Audi, Suzuki, Mercedes, etc. These factories can make money by using the cheap labor of the country but they take all the profit out of the country and invest that elsewhere. That's what rich countries got from letting poor countries into the EU. There are literally no Hungarian owned businesses there. Everyone who can make profit, takes the money out of the country. To compensate this, rich countries like the UK pay into EU and poor ones get money from it.

 

And most of that money gets stolen. It is well known that you can not win an EU tender without giving 15-20+% of the money back to the politicians who decide on who wins it. It is also well known that only the friends of the current government can win EU tenders. They build things from the rest of the money that are useless and don't help making profit. Like nice parks, squares, lookout towers, etc.

They steal so much money that they even f*ck that up. They use the cheapest materials and labor so they become unusable in 1-2 years. Or just don't leave enough to build something that actually resembles the plans.

For example this lookout tower was built from £100,000. It is a little over 1 foot high. Not kidding.

There are hundreds of projects like this. My old boss bought an actual palace, rebuilt it, created a wellness centre and laser eye clinic in it without spending a single penny from his own pocket. And it is his own now, the profit it makes is his own money.

All this while poverty and starvation has never been so high in the country as now.

I just read last month that the EU gave money to investigate the corrupt spending of the EU money and they actually stole that too FFS.

 

So that's where it goes.

 

BUT.

 

The rich countries take even more money out of those countries and they invest it in the rich countries economics. So even though a lot is spent there we get to live better here.

[Sacarathe]

I can tell you that. Most of it goes to corrupt politicians' pockets.

I moved here from Hungary. One of the main reasons was exactly this issue. The only income Hungary has now is EU money. After Hungary joined the EU, investors came and built factories like Audi, Suzuki, Mercedes, etc. These factories can make money by using the cheap labor of the country but they take all the profit out of the country and invest that elsewhere. That's what rich countries got from letting poor countries into the EU. There are literally no Hungarian owned businesses there. Everyone who can make profit, takes the money out of the country. To compensate this, rich countries like the UK pay into EU and poor ones get money from it.

 

And most of that money gets stolen. It is well known that you can not win an EU tender without giving 15-20+% of the money back to the politicians who decide on who wins it. It is also well known that only the friends of the current government can win EU tenders. They build things from the rest of the money that are useless and don't help making profit. Like nice parks, squares, lookout towers, etc.

They steal so much money that they even f*ck that up. They use the cheapest materials and labor so they become unusable in 1-2 years. Or just don't leave enough to build something that actually resembles the plans.

For example this lookout tower was built from £100,000. It is a little over 1 foot high. Not kidding.

There are hundreds of projects like this. My old boss bought an actual palace, rebuilt it, created a wellness centre and laser eye clinic in it without spending a single penny from his own pocket. And it is his own now, the profit it makes is his own money.

All this while poverty and starvation has never been so high in the country as now.

I just read last month that the EU gave money to investigate the corrupt spending of the EU money and they actually stole that too FFS.

 

So that's where it goes.

 

BUT.

 

The rich countries take even more money out of those countries and they invest it in the rich countries economics. So even though a lot is spent there we get to live better here.

 

Sounds like countries are the problem, not europe.

 

Can't tell which way you're advocating, and you don't have to say, but you have highlighted some counterpoints to [negative opinions on] the UK paying europe a membership fee.

 

Personally I fall on staying in, but mostly that is because the "get out crowd" shout the loudest, when there is an uneven balance of opinion the loudest voice cannot be trusted.

[K@rl]

Stepping aside from the question for a second. How is it possible for the mayor of one of the worlds most culturally divers capital city's wants to jump out of bed with our neighbours? Oh yea because it's boris Johnson. Has nobody down there told him he was voted in as a joke?

[Sitting Duck]

Stepping aside from the question for a second. How is it possible for the mayor of one of the worlds most culturally divers capital city's wants to jump out of bed with our neighbours? Oh yea because it's boris Johnson. Has nobody down there told him he was voted in as a joke?

 

And Labour's Jeremy Corbyn wasn't ???

 

ALL politicians are jokes or clowns out for themselves

[Samurai]

Can't tell which way you're advocating

To be honest, I don't know it either.

But to make my point: even though on surface UK pays a lot into EU and poor countries get money the end result is that UK gets more back and poor countries loose more than they get. Simply because the richer countries created the EU for this very reason. So economically it is a benefit for the UK. No wonder all the big companies say the UK must stay in the EU.

 

Also purely economically the EU migrants are a benefit to the UK.

http://s3.mirror.co.uk/mirror/ampp3d/articles/the-big-one.jpg

 

I do believe people who move to an other country should integrate culturally. The ones who are willing to do that should be encouraged to come the others discouraged.

[Sitting Duck]

I do believe people who move to an other country should integrate culturally. The ones who are willing to do that should be encouraged to come the others discouraged.

 

There was an ol' saying of playing the White Man which looney lefties will say is racist

but in fact it isn't it is just a simple thing of fitting in and accepting

 

Australia's point system and their stance on immigration is perfectly acceptable to most

but it "might" offend some if we took a similar stance - jeez

 

You sir understand this, a pity some of the UK citizens still do not

By all means freedom of movement - with checks and measures is common sense

 

Yes the UK are lazy bastids, heck if we come out of EU then we won't be able to carrying on blaming them for crap

Then if things still go pear shape - the the UK will have to look at ourselves heaven forbid and get off our ar$es for once

Yes crap jobs and crap pay don't sound that appealling but you gotta start and climb up somewhere on the ladder and nearly always at bottom

 

Companies and bosses don't help keep taking the pi$$, but end of the day if the UK wants to stop moaning for a bit

get off its ar$e and WORK to make the UK better and stop moaning and blaming EU, immigration and f*ck knows what else

Easier said than done I know but having the mindset is often half the battle

 

yes millions could be spent on our own people and health service

but at same time - get off our ar$es a bit more rather than expect welfare to pick up bill

 

unemployed ? moan about nhs service - why not shut up and and try to get a job porter/cleaner or something and feel proud to work for UK NHS

ohhh f*ck that min wage crap - they might say

Jeeez - but that is sometimes what UK citizens are like which f*cks me right off

 

Yes it is not as simple as that but c'mon you kind of get the idea why the world sees UK as lazy bastids

So in my mind this vote is not just about EU but should be a sign of UK actually thinking of how THEY can perhaps help to make UK better for themselves

 

no doubt it will be yet another missed opportunity we later all sit around just moaning about - oh well

[Jambo88]

I will vote to leave simply because if the UK does leave it means indyref2 I don't know why they are having a vote. They should just ask London what they want and fuck the rest of us.

[Zak Da Mack]

I'm still undecided, but I'll most likely be staying in as I don't trust our current government to do whatever they damn well please. They have lied and stabbed us in the back already and they will have more freedom to do so if we leave.

[Lozart]

 

However - if the parties that be would like to fully explain just wtf the UK actually gets - I mean factually gets please enlighten me

I mean if I got a receipt/bill in a shop I got a full breakdown of where n what was spent exactly....

So if UK is spending £20075000000!!!

or 20 billion quid each year

from say working population paying £1 or more a day aprox or £365 a year or what ever other crap the maths wanna dress it up

Then please enlighten me wtf my money is going if that is not too much to ask.....

 

 

 

It's not hard to find out what we pay and for what, our actual net cost of membership is nowhere near £20bn either. Have a read of this: http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2015/03/eu-explainer-easily-bored-cost-uk

[EvilMonkee]

Evn £8bn is enough per year to plug the hole in the NHS finances...

[Lozart]

Evn £8bn is enough per year to plug the hole in the NHS finances...

 

We spend more on foreign aid than we do on net EU contributions.

[Lozart]

If anyone wants to see the numbers (it's a bit dull but there you go) http://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/year_spending_2015UKbn_15bc2n_3435658

 

Also worth noting that while non-EU migrants have cost us money, EU migrants have brought in something in the region of £20bn since around 2004. On the whole immigration has cost the tax payer LESS than the UK population has cost PER CAPITA than benefits payments to UK residents have. So the next time someone tells you that "immigrants" are the be all and end all of the countries woes, it's just not true.

[Sitting Duck]

My bad - my maths were out......

 

I did say originally the cost was more like 33 million not 55 million a day after rebates

 

but somewhere I messed up the maths bit when calculating the true yearly cost

eg: £33 million x 365 = 12 Billion

and not £55 million x 365 = 20 billion - OOOPS see I do admit when I'm wrong

 

I did the maths WRONG - I admit that, I was trying to base the original post on balanced facts

instead of scarey UKIP quotes and leave out other factors - eg me say true daily cost is £33million

 

The 12 Billion per year does seem to be correct though when calculated with the £33 million per day

Though to be fair I did say the previous fee - rebates was £24 million a day and meant a 30% increase to £33 million a day after rebates

well actually that is 37% over previous year - go back further it KEEPS RISING A STAGGERING AMOUNT EACH YEAR

 

However - based upon those sharp increases that keep continuing the next bill is very likely going to be getting near that £20 billion after rebates

(gotta be £18 billion per year after rebates)

 

The figures of what immigrants or EU members brings into the country and pays taxes to benefit UK blah blah blah.......

coz they do the lower end jobs blah blah blah...........

I'm not bothered about - why ???

 

I said if lazy joe UK public got off its ar$e a bit rather than - pahhh wouldn't get out of bed for that I'll stay on welfare.....

Then it would be UK citizens paying more taxes instead - it doesn't matter those jobs will get filled by somebody regardless.

 

Yes I made a mistake in my maths by calculating the £55m figure rather than the £33m figure

 

And yes I was shocked to see how much the real UK debt actually is a few days earlier

The EU yearly membership is sweet FA in comparison

 

But for all the experts facts n figures I stated my main reason is to vote out and see for myself rather than wonder what if.....

 

Everybody needs to read up more and more - well at least a bit more and not take everything as pure gospel

NOBODY - really knows what will happen, crunch as many figures as you like (hopefully check them first - doohh)

 

Sad fact is we have the politicians - hmmm not exactly the most truthful & honest people with high degrees of integrity

telling us the British public - who lets be honest what do we really really know unless google gives us a snippet of results

 

So we got the corrupt & the stupid all trying to shout higher and finally the stupids have the power to vote

 

God help us - vote how you feel, soz but I'm not gonna live on this thread, well I'm gonna try not to

ffs - nothing that I say should change anybody's mind - if it did then you really are stupid

I come on here for stupid toy guns so I'm gonna try and stay out of this if possible

 

£12billion not £20billion - my bad, there said it about 3 times I screwed up (sorry)

(thankfully I'm not in charge of the treasury)

[EvilMonkee]

Sovereignty is the issue for me. Which makes me like Boris. Dear God........../wrists

[Lozart]

*stuff*

 

Dude, don't beat yourself up over it. The numbers are complicated and not always easy to find the whole picture.

 

My biggest issue with the entire referendum is that the vast majority of people that get up and vote will more than likely have no idea what the EU actually does to benefit us due to a stunning lack of knowledge (or indeed interest). So many of them will knee jerk on an opinion they got from a tabloid front page that actually has fuck all to do with EU membership.

[Lozart]

This article very neatly sums up most of the Pro exit arguments and why they're basically wrong. It also very neatly outlines my general feeling on the whole thing: http://www.andywilliamson.com/10-points-to-consider-about-brexit-and-the-eu-referendum/

[Sitting Duck]

 

Dude, don't beat yourself up over it. The numbers are complicated and not always easy to find the whole picture.

 

My biggest issue with the entire referendum is that the vast majority of people that get up and vote will more than likely have no idea what the EU actually does to benefit us due to a stunning lack of knowledge (or indeed interest). So many of them will knee jerk on an opinion they got from a tabloid front page that actually has f*ck all to do with EU membership.

 

 

Truthfully and honestly - Nobody knows for sure - screw all the scare stories

 

Alas the whole world would rather lay blame to anybody but themselves for their problems

 

I do not have the answers, but people - not just UK getting off their ar$es rather than just sit n moan about stuff is a start

 

I don't think any possible money saved should just plug our own holes - not for a split second

we need to fix the nhs - heck the whole UK not just keep patching up the faults or papering over the cracks

 

But that is down to the people of UK who lets face are just thick and lazy or just can't be bothered except to blame others

 

To me come out - see if we fall on our faces - sink or swim and if we are wrong then ok do something about it

get off our ar$es or admit we f*cked up - but at least we will know for sure and then the whole matter can be truely put behind us

without all the bull$hit people are throwing out there getting lapped up by complete idiots - the general public

 

but I'm just saying same ol' same ol' again - but that is my take & reason for voting out now we have choice

 

slightly off topic - the doctors and strikes and 7 day nhs service bollox

 

uhmm - ok how about we go down the middle for 6 day nhs and sunday is emergency only

not being funny but some of the doctors need to stfu a bit imho

what about all the shop workers who have to work all weird hours - weekends, 24/7, continental shifts zero hours etc....

I work nights but the night rate is nothing like what the night rate % I used to get 10-15yrs ago

The world now operates fully 25hrs a day 8 days a week

So though I see some of their points - oooh f*ck off moaning will ya, everybody is getting screwed over more & more these days

 

yes people hate change - but wise up, in the real world the general working public are getting screwed over all the time

I know where the door is - but it is a tough world out there and companies are fully aware of that and nobody cares truth be told

 

TBH - all the quotes and the links - some I agree some I don't

some new wise rulings - some daft

some of them would of been implemented anyway as it is just the way is rolling

 

For every good thing their is another bad thing you could argue

 

Min wage & basic living wage - great idea but still companies take the pi$$ avoiding it

plus there comes a time where a new joey member of staff joins gets the min wage

and is assisting a semi skilled person who in realation might only be a few quid above joey

if things all goes tits up - joey is alright he knows f*ck all but the other bloke gets ripped a new one or out of job

 

It is the company that needs to ensure they train develop and also ensure they pay correctly according to the job

but that is just one of numerous examples where sometimes my work colleagues feel - ffs this ain't fair this fair pay stuff

But then life isn't fair and certainly far from perfect

 

Oh bollox to this - stop quoting me please, I'm trying to stay out of this and get on with other stuff

[jcheeseright]

Oh that's getting shared... a lot.

[skarra333]

This article very neatly sums up most of the Pro exit arguments and why they're basically wrong. It also very neatly outlines my general feeling on the whole thing: http://www.andywilliamson.com/10-points-to-consider-about-brexit-and-the-eu-referendum/

 

This article is part of why I'm so unsure, because having read it – it kind of makes me want to vote to leave just that little bit more...

 

This article is like so so many pieces from the EU and pro-EU camp over the years... I’d say that it doesn't really try to address concerns or questions that unsure people have, it doesn't rationally counter issues offering people facts and information, it doesn’t even recognise them as legitimate worries...

Instead it starts by mocking, belittling and scoffing at people who have questions about the EU and our place in it. It dismisses such creatures as 'wrong thinking'... It doesn’t try to engage and enlighten folk on the fence as to the facts of the situation, it just sneers and reiterates the author’s stance…

Worried about control over our borders? Why – you have to show your passport at Dover – next…

Want to control our own laws? You can’t – we need to do what Europe does anyway, at least now we have some say – stop your moaning.

Does that really address the concerns in anything close to a serious way, does it even treat people with such questions fairly? Hell no – to both.

 

And this is why we’re here… I think unlike Lozart (whom I respect) and his actual real engagement on issues with information and discussion, this article treats people similar to how the EU is perceived to have – it just sneers and expects their support – with any doubts or questions reduced to an ignorance to be ignored and jeered at…

And when the EU/pro-EU camp mistreat people so for so long, is it any wonder that regardless of any arguments about the benefits of being in the EU – massive doubts remain?

 

We are already a seemingly decreasingly important part of an increasingly undemocratic super-state... We only get what, 8% of voting power in the EU parliament anyway... And with Albania, Macedonia, Montenegro, Serbia and Turkey all candidates for EU membership, that power will further be diluted.

But moving past the issues with the elected minority of EU decision makers, the un-elected majority seem to embody the condescension and cynicism of this article, and they are becoming increasingly distant from us…

To many, that represents a loss of sovereignty, freedom and control… And while “right thinking” minds like Dr Williamson label these as at best - secondary concerns, as well as our base nature, we are saturated (from birth) with far more messages about the importance of such things than messages on maintaining a preferable tax and import/export arrangement with European markets - are we not…?

 

So when these types of articles and speeches come along, they don’t make me realise how ignorant I am and make me want to vote stay… They rile me and just remind me of how increasingly flawed I feel the EU is, how that compromises some very fundamental priorities that I have, and makes me lean towards leave… And it’s a shame.

[Lozart]

 

This article is part of why I'm so unsure, because having read it – it kind of makes me want to vote to leave just that little bit more...

 

This article is like so so many pieces from the EU and pro-EU camp over the years... I’d say that it doesn't really try to address concerns or questions that unsure people have, it doesn't rationally counter issues offering people facts and information, it doesn’t even recognise them as legitimate worries...

Instead it starts by mocking, belittling and scoffing at people who have questions about the EU and our place in it. It dismisses such creatures as 'wrong thinking'... It doesn’t try to engage and enlighten folk on the fence as to the facts of the situation, it just sneers and reiterates the author’s stance…

Worried about control over our borders? Why – you have to show your passport at Dover – next…

Want to control our own laws? You can’t – we need to do what Europe does anyway, at least now we have some say – stop your moaning.

Does that really address the concerns in anything close to a serious way, does it even treat people with such questions fairly? Hell no – to both.

 

And this is why we’re here… I think unlike Lozart (whom I respect) and his actual real engagement on issues with information and discussion, this article treats people similar to how the EU is perceived to have – it just sneers and expects their support – with any doubts or questions reduced to an ignorance to be ignored and jeered at…

And when the EU/pro-EU camp mistreat people so for so long, is it any wonder that regardless of any arguments about the benefits of being in the EU – massive doubts remain?

 

We are already a seemingly decreasingly important part of an increasingly undemocratic super-state... We only get what, 8% of voting power in the EU parliament anyway... And with Albania, Macedonia, Montenegro, Serbia and Turkey all candidates for EU membership, that power will further be diluted.

But moving past the issues with the elected minority of EU decision makers, the un-elected majority seem to embody the condescension and cynicism of this article, and they are becoming increasingly distant from us…

To many, that represents a loss of sovereignty, freedom and control… And while “right thinking” minds like Dr Williamson label these as at best - secondary concerns, as well as our base nature, we are saturated (from birth) with far more messages about the importance of such things than messages on maintaining a preferable tax and import/export arrangement with European markets - are we not…?

 

So when these types of articles and speeches come along, they don’t make me realise how ignorant I am and make me want to vote stay… They rile me and just remind me of how increasingly flawed I feel the EU is, how that compromises some very elemental priorities that I have, and makes me lean towards leave… And it’s a shame.

 

 

Very well put.

 

I agree that the article is a little...shall we say "lighthearted" in its treatment of the issues raised by anti-EU campaigners but I think that's more down to the somewhat risible nature of many of the arguments put forth by the Brexit side. I would say though don't be encouraged to vote "out" purely because of the tone of one article. If it makes you want to do anything it should make you want to look into the actual effects of exiting the EU and how it will change our stance in the world political and economic arena and not just be one of the mouth breathers that votes based on what the Sun says about immigrants.

 

I wholeheartedly agree that the EU is fundamentally flawed but I don't honestly think we're better off out of it. We won't be taken seriously on our own, we'll still have to abide by many of the EU laws and legislation and we won't have any chance of influencing them. It does seem that a great number of the people that want to leave think that it will fix all our problems like some kind of magic bullet but it really, REALLY won't.

 

One spectacularly well thought out Brexit argument said that we should leave and "they" can keep their fancy Audis and BMWs anyway. I presume of course that the European car marques he was referring to weren't the ones built here in factories that provide thousands of people with jobs....

 

Like I say, educate yourself on the issues and vote according to how you feel on that basis, not journalistic hyperbole (whichever side it comes from).

[BrightCandle]

This being an airsoft forum I am going to stick to the airsoft angle for this one.

 

It doesn't currently look like either will be a big problem to airsoft in the near future. The European plan to ban them seems to have folded with the lobbying and the current government isn't really talking about banning them either so for English and Wales residents it seems either is fine.

 

The only real concern is the widely held belief that if Britain leaves the EU then Scotland will leave the UK and that will leave them with the SNP in power and they want to limit the power of airsoft guns to 300 fps if not worse. So Scots will have a worse outcome for airsoft if that actually plays out as expected.

[Jambo88]

This being an airsoft forum I am going to stick to the airsoft angle for this one.

 

It doesn't currently look like either will be a big problem to airsoft in the near future. The European plan to ban them seems to have folded with the lobbying and the current government isn't really talking about banning them either so for English and Wales residents it seems either is fine.

 

The only real concern is the widely held belief that if Britain leaves the EU then Scotland will leave the UK and that will leave them with the SNP in power and they want to limit the power of airsoft guns to 300 fps if not worse. So Scots will have a worse outcome for airsoft if that actually plays out as expected.

Ireland has a limit of 280 or something so 300fps isn't gonna ruin the game here. We always have it worse off anyway so even if they ban it completely I would take just to leave the UK.

[RR01]

In 1973, after being lied to by Ted Heath, the UK was conned in to voting to stay in the EEC, i.e. the Common Market. We did not vote to be governed by Europe (our fathers and grandfathers fought a war to stop that happening) or to allow un-elected EU civil servants to decide what laws or regulations should take precedence in the UK. There is nothing wrong with having the EU countries as trading partners, but there is a very real issue with having them as overlords of our country. Anyone who votes to remain will be ensuring that their children and grandchildren will be nothing more than prisoners of the evil that is the 4th Reich. Better to get out now than remain one day longer.