How to get permission to play airsoft in derelict/unused buildings?

[RingWorm]

So as the title depicts, how does one go about getting permission to play shooty pew-pew in a derelict building?

 

I figured the biggest obstacles would be;

 

Health and safety nightmare

 

Insurance issues (as it would be an event or could be a small invitational)

 

Metal thieves fear from owners

 

Owners reluctance to let 40 people run about with toy guns

 

So has anyone seen http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=j9h3SVudWow

 

Surely this could be done in uk? Even if I was to ask £10 or £20 from anyone wanting to play and give that to the owners? As surely £200 or so is better than nothing?

 

Had this place in mind as it's 2 mins from my house and looks awesome!

http://www.28dayslater.co.uk/rosebank-distillery-camelon-13-9-08.t32919

 

 

Thoughts?

[kerby91]

I too am looking into this as we are trying to set up a cqb site local to us but land is so damn expensive. Any info is useful (sorry to OP for barging in haha)

[RingWorm]

Well the plan I had was to find somewhere that's been sat for years and looks run down/un appealing to potential clients. Approach the owners/letting agents and make them an offer like.....once or twice a month can we use your warehouse/derelict building to play airsoft and we will give you the entire proceeds, charge like £10 or £20 per player so you have a few hundred together which might be appealing to an owner of unused property as it is better than nothing. Maybe sign a months lease or 2 months lease and say you will vacate ASAP when they find a genuine/higher paying client. It could all be written up into a contract? Get folk to sign disclaimers so insurance isn't an issue.

[Mr Monkey Nuts]

See, with that last sentence you have perfectly demonstrated you haven't got a clue!

 

Give up on this pipe dream, there are plenty of cool looking indoor sites go play at one of them.

[RingWorm]

What an utter foopter!

 

I can unequivocally guarantee you would never in a million centuries say that to my face!

 

Unless you really are that rude to strangers and folk looking for help and advice to start something positive.

 

Why on earth would you reply with negativity rather than positivity? Are you grumpy?

 

Seriously though mate wtf? I might not have a clue but isn't that the entire reason why I'm on an airsoft forum asking for help and advice? If I did 'have a clue' about what to do with this idea, then I wouldn't be on here asking.

 

I know you, I see you everyday. Your the person that doesn't have anything nice to do or say in any given situation where someone else is happy.

 

Or then again, I'm probably wrong, since I don't have a clue.

[deebo]

On the subject........its quite tricky to do. Yoh need to know someone with a bit of space you want to use, and ask nicely if your friends can hang out. That way, its essentially no different in the eyes of law than being at your house and shooting each other. To do it properly does in volve alot of costs and insurance. It either needs to stay small, and private at some land someone you know owns or be big, and a propper site. Im not aware of a moddle ground

[shortman]

Id email a local site owner and ask for advice from them on the hows and whats as to proceed further. Id just disclose the location lol dont want em stealing your site. Also you will meed to retain some of the money to pay marshals etc as you will need marshals with some for of first aid qualification at least. Also will probs need some form of building insurance incase a pyro burns the place down! But im sure an site owner can enlighten you to all the ifs and whats etc

[RingWorm]

Thanks a lot dude.

 

Yeah it wouldn't be a proper fully legit site for paying customer of the streets like a hired gun or for financial gain, I'm not starting an airsoft business. As THAT is a bit out of my reach. And I recognise that! It would need to be a small group of friends/associates/fellow enthusiasts found on a forum to get some coin together to pay a small rent and yeah as you said it wouldn't be any different to mates hooking up at a house and hanging out or shooting.

 

Loads of farmers in Falkirk area with unused land and outbuildings I'm sure would welcome a couple quid from respectful chaps playing pew pew.

[RingWorm]

Yah I had that idea to ask current owners of sites.

 

And yah I'm a fully qualified st johns ambulance first aider as I'm a licensed security officer and yah marshalling would be a consideration for sure.

 

Hmm I didn't think about pyros. Whoops.

[Aengus]

This probably is a bit drastic but maybe ban pyro all together which to you may sound like it'd ruin the fun but I play without pyro and it adds a new dynamic to the game of to clear a room you don't just chuck in a mk4 you have to go rushing in - very fun. If you do go ahead I'm coming along wether you like it or not (30 minute drive)

[ImTriggerHappy]

Its totally doable but takes a bit of effort.

[Sacarathe]

I expect TFL has some real gems.

[Hibernator]

I'm no expert, but I suspect you will need some kind of insurance regardless. Property insurance as above and some kind of liability insurance. It's all well and good players signing waivers, but what if someone falls through a rotten floor or something? I'm sure you'd be found negligent for not checking the safety of the site. You'd also need it in case some random member of the public wanders onsite and gets shot in the face - they won't have signed a waiver.

 

If you were charging people, it would probably be seen as a business. There's probably all sorts of legislation regarding change of use of the site from industrial to leisure. If there are houses nearby you'll have to account for noise polution, extra traffic, parking, people wandering around dressed like Rambo etc.. With the current security situation I'd imagine you'd need to inform the Police of your intentions as well so a well meaning member of the public doesn't place a worried call about an ISIS training camp in the area. I reckon Police MP5s hurt more than my CYMA ;-)

 

I'm sure it can't be as easy as you think, or CQB sites would be springing up all over the place. It will probably take a lot of research and cost a bit!

[K@rl]

Agree with above post. Waivers only apply to injuries as a result of the activity you are undertaking. Public liability insurance would still be required and if somethin where to happen it would be the site owner who was equally liable. Then there is the police/public issue.

With regard to the op. I find it highly unlikely for you to be grant permission to access that site because whilst it may be abandoned there is still value (even scrap) in the items in there.

Also if they are looking to rent it out and lease it to you in the short term as people have mentioned, how do you think it would look with 1.64 billion bbs on the floor? Broken windows? Etc

There would also be an increased cost on the building insurance due to it now having a purpose.

Once you start to take money of people and hire premises you effectively have started a business.

It is a lot easier to find a farmer with a couple of acres of woodland that you can all pay him to play on. Not even health and safety can find fault with a root. Although I think they would try.

This is why cqb sites in America are the way ther are.

[ImTriggerHappy]

I'm sure it can't be as easy as you think, or CQB sites would be springing up all over the place. It will probably take a lot of research and cost a bit!

There is a lot of legislation and red tape if setting up a proper skirmish site but hes talking about using a derelict site with permission for a private skirmish thats a different thing altogether.

 

You need agreement from the owner.

 

Agreement from the insurance company.

 

A risk assessment will need doing as its a business site so even with players signing a waiver there has to be some health and safety.

 

Forget pyro as using them comes with a hefty premium on insurance.

 

Because all players are playing at own risk and its voluntary and signing waivers you dont need insurance for injury but it can affect building insurance in case of damage to property expect to pay for that.

 

You will need to inform emergency services just in case someone reports seeing a gun.

Best idea is to find a site thats on a private business park with security.

 

If you charge anybody a fee to play it becomes a business and all of the above means nothing.

 

If its free then its just for fun and on private premises you dont need the same coverage. Just keep it indoors because even if playing a game its not a registered site so rifs cannot be in public view.

[kerby91]

Balls, puts paid to my plans then. Oh well thanks to every that's posted and to the op for allowing me to tag along lol

[K@rl]

Agreed trigger however even if you are playing without paying and at your own risk you can still hold the owner liable if you have an accident and absolutely no waiver would hold up in court if for example you fell through a rotten floor.

Even if you don't have permission to be there and you have an accident you can sue the owner.

Example; a man was walking over a fragile roof (asbestos sheets) looking for somewhere to break in. He fell through the roof and broke bones etc. He succefully claimed against the building owner for injuries and for exposing him to asbestos. All because there where no signs up warning him.

You could do a risk assessment on the site but there is always a reason to stop it. I have to write Rams for working at hight and it's easier to get permission to see inside Cheryl Coles knickers.

 

Ps I know that's not her name now but who knows what is is these days.

[ImTriggerHappy]

Actually when the risk assessment is done any issues are high lighted and added to the waiver. You then sign off that the owner can in no way be held liable for any injuries as you play at own risk. The risk assessment would need redoing after 12 months.

As I said if you pay a fee to play or a fee to rent the site then its different as thats a business transaction and comes under a whole different set of rules.

I know this as I have been playing a derelict site for the last 9 months.

It was also there that I injured myself in November.

The biggest hurdle is finding a place that will let you use the site for free.

[kerby91]

Yeah see we would be looking to set up a regular cqb site somewhere so we'd be a business

[Aengus]

Actually when the risk assessment is done any issues are high lighted and added to the waiver. You then sign off that the owner can in no way be held liable for any injuries as you play at own risk. The risk assessment would need redoing after 12 months.

As I said if you pay a fee to play or a fee to rent the site then its different as thats a business transaction and comes under a whole different set of rules.

I know this as I have been playing a derelict site for the last 9 months.

It was also there that I injured myself in November.

The biggest hurdle is finding a place that will let you use the site for free.

What if everyone just happend to owe you 20 quid?

[Sacarathe]

Been hoping someone serious would post this thread for a while.

 

As I said if you pay a fee to play or a fee to rent the site then its different as thats a business transaction and comes under a whole different set of rules.

To clarify, that's only if you pay the site owner, or make a profit? Someone has to pay the insurance/lawyers?

 

 

If no money passes to the land owner, the organiser makes no profit, or money to make it happen is raised collectively (spent by a single person), is that crossing the line?

 

If a 'person' organised this set up with the owner, insurance, police, council, etc, can people play airsoft at the site when the 'person' which organised the permissions is not present and did not give permission?

 

If unauthorised people play airsoft at the site, are they covered by each of the groups that need to give consent, or would that be trespass.

 

Is the presence of non players required for insurance, to supervise the players or protect the public.

[ImTriggerHappy]

There are some grey areas to it that I dont fully know about.

 

The people I play with have been doing this for a while. I got involved just by being in the right place at the the right time.

The guy who organised it initially works for a property management firm and hes always present when we play as he plays as well and has to unlock the building. Its invite only and all of us who play have signed multiple waivers. No one can play without permission.

As regards trespassers we had to drop a game in the summer as the building was broken into and the site wasnt secure.

 

Edit; Not sure about whether the presence of non players is required. A few of the guys take it in turns stepping out and marshalling but its more like a group of mates having a kick around in the park than a proper event. It gets pretty rough on occasion, the only downside is no pyro.

[ImTriggerHappy]

Yeah see we would be looking to set up a regular cqb site somewhere so we'd be a business

Then you need some professional advice and deep pockets to start. The shear amount of health and safety crap you would to deal with would be huge.

[K@rl]

Trigger you are totally missing the point of a risk assessment. It is to assess the risk to person,property, environment, etc. It isn't so that you can say well that's an issue and here's a wiaver to embemnifi me from any liability of harm as a result of a risk I know is present.

The idea of it is so that you can then implement measures in a method statement to reduce the risk. And then conduct another risk assessment. Untill all the risks are reasonably managed.

The fact that the person who is allowing you access to his/her site knows about potential risks only puts them more open to liability.

 

Whether people a pay or not or play or not you need insurance or you are putting yourself at risk.

[K@rl]

Yeah see we would be looking to set up a regular cqb site somewhere so we'd be a business

So you all have other incomes? It isn't as difficult as you may think. Yes you would need some start up capital. It is possible you could apply for grants etc as you are repurposing a deralict building. what you need most of is time!