Completely new, where to start? Is it worth it?

[mambo]

Hey there everybody.

I was always interested in having a go in a proper airsoft skirmish and I went to one or two back in my fatherland (Poland) but I couldn't afford any of the gear then. Now when I can, I happen to live on your beautiful island and rules on ASG aren't really clear to me.

What I'm used to is: get whatever gun you want and go shoot your friends with it wherever you want as long as there's no people there and just don't poke anybody's eye out with a bb... I found that it's a bit strict around here... SO! I gathered that I can't buy an actual RIF unless I get something two coloured and go out skirmishing couple of times and then register somewhere... correct? What's the minimum formalities I have to go through to actually get myself started?

Do you know of any official skimishing sites in a reasonable driving distance from Worcester? Does any of you live in this area and could invite me along to one of the games?

Thanks for all your help,

Tom

[Samurai]

Welcome here.

Check this out: http://www.airsoft-forums.co.uk/index.php/topic/12854-new-player-guides-info/

[Airsoft_Mr B]

You could buy a 'two-tone' bright coloured gun and then you need to skirmish three times within a year (but, you can't do all three in under 2 months or something like that)

You can also rent at the skirmish so you don't need to buy a gun first.

 

Once you have a UKARA defence you could always order from Europe since AEGs are cheaper, I have ordered from Poland before (from TaiwanGun) and also seen Gunfire.pl

We usually ask them to write our UKARA number on the box so customs can see it is okay but they don't always do it.

[Chock]

What's the minimum formalities I have to go through to actually get myself started?

 

Tom

 

The absolute minimum you have to do to get started, is simply turn up at a skirmish site, put your name and address down and sign a waiver form for their insurance (this is so if you get a tooth shot out or whatever, they aren't to blame). Pay them the fee to play and off you go. Take some ID with you, to prove you are who you say you are, preferably with a photo on it, since some places will ask for it.

 

Typically, new players do that and then hire the gear when at the site for three or four games and then buy their own gear when they are a bit more familiar with what kind of weapon they would like. It will probably cost 10 pounds or so to hire some gear, then the the cost of the skirmish is likely to be about 25 pounds, depending on its length in hours usually, most all day skirmishes cost about 25, evening sessions typically cost about 15. It's obviously not a bad idea to let a skirmish site know you are coming if you want to hire gear, as they might have limited numbers of weapons for hire. In other words, if you are hiring stuff at a skirmish, figure on it costing you about 35 to 40 pounds for a day's skirmishing, and a bit less for an evening session.

 

You might want to check if the skirmish site you go to is UKARA registered (it most likely will be, because almost all airsoft skirmish sites in the UK are). If it is UKARA registered and you wish to join the scheme so you can buy a realistic looking weapon easily in the UK, then you should play three skirmishes at that site, over a period of two months, then fill out a form (which the site will provide), fill that out with your details then send it off to a UKARA registered retailer, who will authorise it (the site will tell you where to send it). Wait a few days, and then you will be contacted with information concerning what your UKARA Registration number is. When you have one of those numbers, you can quote that unique personal number to any shop, they can check it online instantly, and having done that, they will allow you to buy a realistic airsoft weapon.

 

But if you are happy enough to use a weapon which is two toned in colour, and you are over eighteen years of age, then there is absolutely nothing stopping you from buying something like that right now.

 

You can read full explanatory information about the UKARA scheme and how to register on the UKARA database info here:

 

http://www.ukara.org.uk/

[mambo]

Thank you very much guys! It cleared it all up for me nicely. So basically, to get a single colour, realistic looking weapon I have to have the UKARA number and I get that by going to skirmishes with a two tone or renting kit? That's not too bad, I thought there's going to be more messing about to get it. I don't mind having a two tone gun but then if I will shell out couple of quid on an equipment I'd rather get one that's a go to one, that will last me for long... I know I would start to moan about the orange bits soon

Anyway, I live not far from Kidderminster where First&Only sites are so might actually pay them a visit soon. Has anyone got any experience with them at all?

Thanks guys!

[Sitting Duck]

you buy say a 2-tone G&G Raider & get ukara

then get a RIF - keep 2-tone as spare or for a m8 if they go with ya

 

is it worth - NO !!!!!

 

You will become fitter, act like a kid again (i've never stopped)

meet new people & shoot them (and get owned from some exp players too)

most are very friendly - love to talk guns/loadouts n stuff

 

but most of all you may find like most on here it is very addictive

plus very very hard to resist to buy/try more different guns

 

NB: your home is at risk if you fail to keep up repayments on it coz you just blew another load on more toys

Should be a warning put out - airsoft is very addictive kids so don't start

 

don't take my posts too seriously - but if you get into it then don't say I didn't warn ya

once you got the basic kit it is very very cheap really if you resist buying more toys

(£10 for 5,000 bb's - that ammo will probably last you 2 to 4 skirmishes depending how trigger happy you are)

[Albiscuit]

Rentals from my experience are more than Chock said. Around 35-40 for a gun and mask PLUS the days skirmish fee of around 25 pounds. But these are London prices so might be a bit higher.

A two tone starter package can be picked up for around 100. Spend a bit more on a combat raider two tone and you have paid the same ammount for rentals ( a not too accurate often covered in duct tape gun with more dents than my car) as you would a decent gun which would see you through for a year until your ready to upgrade and go pro

Plus you could always spray the bright bits black as soon as you get the gun. Or wait for your UKARA depending (some people might say best to wait)....

[Jambo88]

If you go back home to Poland for a holiday buy a gun there and bring it back on the bus

 

If your gonna buy a gun get a G&G M4 I've just got one and it feels well made and very good quality and cost £150.

[TheGrover]

i believe that if youre gonna buy a gun, set a budget and buy something near the top of that. a £150 gun will always be a £150 gun. and with the exception of a few poor models, a £150 gun won't be as good as a £250 gun. as in anything, you get what you pay for. always do thorough research into any purchase, NEVER trust a "Review" that's made by a retailer, and always look for a review by someone who has used the gun for a few months and actually skirmished it. preferably someone like our very own Ed and his ICS L85. his very detailed review outlines about every issue that you can expect whilst you treat the gun right, and since he doesnt get paid by ICS or make any money from sales, he is the least biased reviewer possible.

[RR01]

Both the F&O sites in Kidderminster are very good, although walk-on fees are £35 (lunch included) and hire fees a bit more on top. However, you will get good games in some very good venues, especially at Drakelow Tunnels (The Outpost) where most of the time games are played completely underground in tunnels varying from well lit to completely dark. The Asylum is also good, with games played over open ground, woodland and in and around buildings, making for very different shooting conditions. Give it a go. May see you up there later in the year.

[mambo]

Thank you very much for all the help guys!

I'm not that fussed about how good the equipment I'm getting is at the moment. I think I'd like to spend as little as possible on a gun, is there anything you could recommend from a lowest price bracket, that's fairly skirmishable (I know I'm being lazy asking that instead of searching for myself, but I don't even know where to start)?
I think I'd like to spend not more than around £100-£150 on a gun for now. I was looking at couple of guns at JustBBGuns at they have like a M4 and AK47B (The series is SRC Bulldog Sportline) for around £80 (plus cost of batteries etc.) that are partly made of metal, with full metal internals and around 350fps @ 0.20g. Also there's a UMP45 that's branded by H&K in blue for about £110-150. Similar spec to the ones before. Seen a review of that UMP45 and the guy said that some plastic bits are really plasticky but then it's quite sturdy and very accurate for a gun at that price... Do you think that any of those would be any good? I'll put the links in just in case you're patient enough to have a look.

That's the AK47B:

http://www.justbbguns.co.uk/product/549/2-TONE-GUNS-PRO/466/2-TONE-AEG-PRO/3084/NEW-BULLDOG-AK47B

That's the M4A1:

http://www.justbbguns.co.uk/product/549/2-TONE-GUNS-PRO/466/2-TONE-AEG-PRO/3089/NEW-BULLDOG-M4A1

That's the UMP45:

http://www.justbbguns.co.uk/product/549/2-TONE-GUNS-PRO/466/2-TONE-AEG-PRO/3001/HK-UMP-AEG-BLUE

Would any of these be any good at all?

Someone mentioned before that I could instead of getting UKARA thing I could just paint my two tone all black. I was thinking about it but I always thought I'd be breaking the law somehow. Could anyone confirm that it's ok to paint your two tone gun all black?

About taking a gun back from Poland... I don't think I would like to go on a coach from Poland to UK at all haha it takes like 30hrs and is just too annoying (did it once, no thanks haha). Not even mentioning that I'd have to cross several borders with a gun in my bag haha. Do you think that the price difference is that big?

Also F&O would charge me £35 a day of skirmish + £15 for renting on top. Do you know what a day like that looks like? How long the actual match lasts for during the day? And would you say it's better to actually buy a gun for myself straight away or rent the gear out couple of times first? Is there any chance I could come along with someone from here who goes there on an open day at some point, just so I'm not completely clueless?

Haha sorry for all those questions but I'm a complete newbie if it comes to this. I did airsoft twice in my life. First time my friend took me with him and gave me his old £20 worth electric M5 and I basically spent a day freezing my ass off and getting shot without a chance of reaching anyone. Another time it was a bb gun war with local kids so it shouldn't even count really, especially that half of them had water guns instead. Although the stories from my friends that did ASG were amazing and I've seen a lot of footage on youtube of people playing and I think it's something I would definitely enjoy doing. Even my wife got all hyper about that idea which is weird because she's always very 'meh' towards most of crazy ideas I come up with hahaha

Thank you very much and I hope to hear from you lot soon.

Tom

[Lozart]

OK, the guns you've linked to are......alright but you could get better ones for the money. The website you've used is also known for very poor customer service so we generally advise against using them.

 

You could look at the G&G Combat machine range (for example: http://www.proairsoftsupplies.co.uk/acatalog/cm_16_carbine_combat_machine_.html#SID=239 ) which are generally very good guns. Most reputable suppliers will happily paint your gun two tone but honestly I would suggest you rent until you can register your details with UKARA and then buy a RIF. While there is no law against anyone over 18 owning a RIF it IS an offence to "manufacture a RIF" which is what you'd be doing if you buy a two tine gun and then paint it black. Of course it is very difficult to prove unless you do something that attracts the attention of the Police but the fact remains.

 

I agree with you that without a valid defence bring a RIF back in through all the borders you'd have to cross from Poland just to save a few pounds just isn't worth it. Once you have your defence sorted out though it IS a cheaper place to mail order from!

[mambo]

OK, the guns you've linked to are......alright but you could get better ones for the money. The website you've used is also known for very poor customer service so we generally advise against using them.

 

You could look at the G&G Combat machine range (for example: http://www.proairsoftsupplies.co.uk/acatalog/cm_16_carbine_combat_machine_.html#SID=239 ) which are generally very good guns. Most reputable suppliers will happily paint your gun two tone but honestly I would suggest you rent until you can register your details with UKARA and then buy a RIF. While there is no law against anyone over 18 owning a RIF it IS an offence to "manufacture a RIF" which is what you'd be doing if you buy a two tine gun and then paint it black. Of course it is very difficult to prove unless you do something that attracts the attention of the Police but the fact remains.

 

I agree with you that without a valid defence bring a RIF back in through all the borders you'd have to cross from Poland just to save a few pounds just isn't worth it. Once you have your defence sorted out though it IS a cheaper place to mail order from!

Thanks, that's a really valuable info.

[Chock]

While there is no law against anyone over 18 owning a RIF it IS an offence to "manufacture a RIF" which is what you'd be doing if you buy a two tine gun and then paint it black. Of course it is very difficult to prove unless you do something that attracts the attention of the Police but the fact remains.

 

 

IT IS NOT AN OFFENCE TO MANUFACTURE A RIF, People think that is the case because they don't bother to read the VCR Act properly, and in full. You can paint an IF black if you are using it for airsoft and it absolutely is not illegal to do so.

 

Here's why people think it is illegal to manufacture a RIF...

 

They read Section 36 of the VCR Act and spot this bit...

 

Section 36 Manufacture, import and sale of realistic imitation firearms.

 

1. A person is guilt of an offence if-

 

a. he manufactures a RIF

 

b. he modifies an IF so that it becomes a RIF

 

Pretty cut and dried huh? Well no, because it also says it is an offence if...

 

c. he sells a RIF

 

d. he brings a RIF into Great Britain or cause one to be brought into Great Britain

 

Now we know that's not a criminal offence, because shops are selling and importing them all the time. So how can they get away with that? Well, that's because below that part of Section 36 of the VCR Act (which nobody ever bothers to read), it also says...

 

Subsection 1 has effect subject to the defences in Section 37.

 

And what does Section 37 say about defences? Well, here it is...

 

It shall be a defence for a person charged with an offence under section 36 in respect of any conduct to show that the conduct was for the purpose only of making the imitation firearm in question available for one or more of the purposes specified in subsection (2).

Those purposes are—

a. the purposes of a museum or gallery;

b. the purposes of theatrical performances and of rehearsals for such performances;

c. the production of films (within the meaning of Part 1 of the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988 (c. 48)_see section 5B of that Act);

d. the production of television programmes (within the meaning of the Communications Act 2003 (c. 21)_see section 405(1) of that Act);

e. the organisation and holding of historical re-enactments organised and held by persons specified or described for the purposes of this section by regulations made by the Secretary of State;

f. the purposes of functions that a person has in his capacity as a person in the service of Her Majesty

So in other words, ANYTHING listed as an offence in Subsection 1 of Section 36, is NOT an offence providing any of the above defence reasons apply. Therefore it is not illegal to paint a gun black so long as you are doing it for one of those reasons, and airsoft skirmishing at an authorised site with insurance, is what reason e in that list is referring to.

[mambo]

 

 

IT IS NOT AN OFFENCE TO MANUFACTURE A RIF...

 

 

...Those purposes are—

a. the purposes of a museum or gallery;

b. the purposes of theatrical performances and of rehearsals for such performances;

c. the production of films (within the meaning of Part 1 of the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988 (c. 48)_see section 5B of that Act);

d. the production of television programmes (within the meaning of the Communications Act 2003 (c. 21)_see section 405(1) of that Act);

e. the organisation and holding of historical re-enactments organised and held by persons specified or described for the purposes of this section by regulations made by the Secretary of State;

f. the purposes of functions that a person has in his capacity as a person in the service of Her Majesty

So in other words, ANYTHING listed as an offence in Subsection 1 of Section 36, is NOT an offence providing any of the above defence reasons apply. Therefore it is not illegal to paint a gun black so long as you are doing it for one of those reasons, and airsoft skirmishing at an authorised site with insurance, is what reason e in that list is referring to.

 

But the ASG skirmishing is neither of those purposes, unless you can convince somebody that running around abandoned buildings shooting eachother with BBs is an historical re-enactment... So basically except the fact that you can't sell a RIF to most of the people as a shop there's no clear law about owning and using one... at least from a person's that's into ASG point of view. That could mean you could as well get away with making your toaster look like a real life Abrams tank or you could have a 1:2 scale pink pistol of no particular type and get in trouble for that (if someone wants to waste your time and money and claims that your pink small toy gun is a RIF of a gun that actually exists and opens a court case because he feels threatened or something). Or am I misunderstanding it all?

 

Also I'm not to fussed, I don't mind running around with a half blue gun anyway. I'm not into military stuff as much as I think I'd have fun airsofting I think of it more like a cooler paintball rather then playing soldiers

 

PS. although wouldn't mind having some tactical combat skills in case Russians kick off for real

[Lozart]

But the ASG skirmishing is neither of those purposes, unless you can convince somebody that running around abandoned buildings shooting eachother with BBs is an historical re-enactment... So basically except the fact that you can't sell a RIF to most of the people as a shop there's no clear law about owning and using one... at least from a person's that's into ASG point of view. That could mean you could as well get away with making your toaster look like a real life Abrams tank or you could have a 1:2 scale pink pistol of no particular type and get in trouble for that (if someone wants to waste your time and money and claims that your pink small toy gun is a RIF of a gun that actually exists and opens a court case because he feels threatened or something). Or am I misunderstanding it all?

 

Also I'm not to fussed, I don't mind running around with a half blue gun anyway. I'm not into military stuff as much as I think I'd have fun airsofting I think of it more like a cooler paintball rather then playing soldiers

 

PS. although wouldn't mind having some tactical combat skills in case Russians kick off for real

 

Site membership and records of attending regular skirmishes can provide a defence. It's what you'd need to do to be able to get registered on the UKARA system anyway.

 

Either way - rent to start with, get a feel for the guns and the game and see what you like the look and feel of then get UKARA'd up and buy a RIF. simple as that.

[Chock]

But the ASG skirmishing is neither of those purposes, unless you can convince somebody that running around abandoned buildings shooting eachother with BBs is an historical re-enactment... So basically except the fact that you can't sell a RIF to most of the people as a shop there's no clear law about owning and using one... at least from a person's that's into ASG point of view. That could mean you could as well get away with making your toaster look like a real life Abrams tank or you could have a 1:2 scale pink pistol of no particular type and get in trouble for that (if someone wants to waste your time and money and claims that your pink small toy gun is a RIF of a gun that actually exists and opens a court case because he feels threatened or something). Or am I misunderstanding it all?

 

Yes, you are misunderstanding it all. The Historical Re-enactments bit of the legislations might not mention airsoft skirmishing, but I can assure you that the Secretary of State has said that specific defence does indeed include airsoft skirmishes. You can find evidence of how the airsoft industry was consulted when the VCR Act was being proposed in the draft discussions before 2006, where what eventually turned into the UKARA Scheme is mentioned, and UKARA is also mentioned in the VCR Act Guidelines which are written to help law enforcement officers and people in the judicial system interpret the law correctly. You can find a copy of those guidelines here. And it is worth looking at, for example, did you know that there are specific dimension in millimetres that a gun can be smaller than which would mean it could not be classed as a RIF? There's no mention of that in the VCR Act's text either, all it says in the VCR Act's text is 'unrealistic size' with no actual dimensions given:

 

http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&ved=0CCwQFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cheshire.police.uk%2Fidoc.ashx%3Fdocid%3D4c48b9cb-c87f-494d-beae-26a3b4f916ec%26version%3D-1&ei=OemzVMm7OoG2UPKOgZAF&usg=AFQjCNHKXSmT_H1I4kGUwJ0MdWoIY9zV6Q&sig2=bSfvIeP63m6ONyK6byWl8Q&bvm=bv.83339334,d.d24

 

Note that is a private publication and not the official guidelines (which i think are three quid for a copy if I recall correctly), but its content is based upon those official guidelines, it's free, and it's a bit nicer to look at, so I linked to that one!

[Lozart]

 

Yes, you are misunderstanding it all. The Historical Re-enactments bit of the legislations might not mention airsoft skirmishing, but I can assure you that the Secretary of State has said that specific defence does indeed include airsoft skirmishes. You can find evidence of how the airsoft industry was consulted when the VCR Act was being proposed in the draft discussions before 2006, where what eventually turned into the UKARA Scheme is mentioned, and UKARA is also mentioned in the VCR Act Guidelines which are written to help law enforcement officers and people in the judicial system interpret the law correctly. You can find a copy of those guidelines here. And it is worth looking at, for example, did you know that there are specific dimension in millimetres that a gun can be smaller than which would mean it could not be classed as a RIF? There's no mention of that in the VCR Act's text either, all it says in the VCR Act's text is 'unrealistic size' with no actual dimensions given:

 

http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&ved=0CCwQFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cheshire.police.uk%2Fidoc.ashx%3Fdocid%3D4c48b9cb-c87f-494d-beae-26a3b4f916ec%26version%3D-1&ei=OemzVMm7OoG2UPKOgZAF&usg=AFQjCNHKXSmT_H1I4kGUwJ0MdWoIY9zV6Q&sig2=bSfvIeP63m6ONyK6byWl8Q&bvm=bv.83339334,d.d24

 

 

More to the point, if he doesn't have a defence - ie he has not yet been skirmishing regularly and has no site membership or Ukara registration then it IS an offence for him to buy a two tone and paint it black as he currently has no defence. So my point stands.

 

How about we stop battering the new blood round the head with the letter of the law and start just letting people know what they need to do to keep on the right side of it?

[Chock]

But it is the intent of creating a RIF for the purpose of one of the approved defences which makes the act of doing so, legal. The law is clear on that. It is perfectly legal to create a RIF even if you have not been to an airsoft skirmish yet, providing the use of it is going to be for airsoft, because you are creating it for the purposes of using it in that way. To do so means one is absolutely following the letter of the law's specific stated defence.

 

Or if you prefer to look at it this way: It is perfectly legal to create a film prop RIF, but in creating it, it had to be created before it was used for filming. Thus it was not illegal before it got used for its intended purpose, otherwise, how could it possibly have been constructed legally?

[Lozart]

But it is the intent of creating a RIF for the purpose of one of the approved defences which makes the act of doing so, legal. The law is clear on that. It is perfectly legal to create a RIF even if you have not been to an airsoft skirmish yet, providing the use of it is going to be for airsoft, because you are creating it for the purposes of using it in that way. To do so means one is absolutely following the letter of the law's specific stated defence.

 

Or if you prefer to look at it this way: It is perfectly legal to create a film prop RIF, but in creating it, it had to be created before it was used for filming. Thus it was not illegal before it got used for its intended purpose, otherwise, how could it possibly have been constructed legally?

 

If you have intent to create a RIF for the purposes of airsofting but do not yet have any documented proof of ever having been skirmishing then you don't have a defence. If you don't have a defence that can be proven then manufacturing a RIF is still illegal. I come back to the point I believe Longshot made on the UK Law thread, it's all illegal but a defence protects you from prosecution. That doesn't make it legal.

 

In order to produce a RIF as a film prop you still need to be able to prove that's what you were doing it for so again, cart before the horse.

 

 

 

Regardless the OP has no current defence or method of proving his intent so he needs to either rent, buy a 2 tone or borrow something on the day from a kindly soul that has taken him to his first skirmish.

[M_P]

If the people already playing don't know the rules how do we expect new players to learn? It's really not that complicated.

 

No defense: no making or buying an rif of any sort. Lozart is spot on.

[Chock]

Fact and proof are two different things. The burden of proof in the UK legal system is the responsibility of the prosecution. There is no requirement to prove that you are upholding the law in order to be law abiding, you merely have to not break the law. It is the matter of fact in one's actions which makes something illegal or legal, not the ability to prove it. This only becomes a point of contention if someone chooses to prosecute you, and for that, they'd have to be finding some nefarious activity one was indulging in, in order to build a case, gathering evidence, witnesses, etc.

 

This is an unlikely as a scenario for someone having painted an airsoft gun up so they can look cool at a skirmish to encounter, since it is incredibly difficult (i.e. damn near impossible) to prove beyond all reasonable doubt what someone does, or does not intend to do. This would be the requirement for a successful prosecution, since the burden of proof for UK criminal courts is rests upon the prosecution. Booking a place at a skirmish site would have such a case fall apart straight away, as it would show the intent was indeed to go skirmishing, even if the defendant had not actually been yet, and I would also suggest that this thread, where the O/P asked about skirmish sites, legalities and useful tips for skirmishing is fairly indicative of his intent to get into airsoft.

 

The VCR Act is absolutely clear on that point too:

 

'It shall be a defence for a person charged with an offence under section 36 in respect of any conduct to show that the conduct was for the purpose only of making the imitation firearm in question available for one or more of the purposes'

 

Note its wording there - 'the conduct was for the purpose of making the imitation firearm available for one or more of the purposes'. Making it available, in other words, knocking the thing up with a tin of black spray paint, for later use.

 

Or in short, paint away, because you are not breaking the law if you want to spray your gun black, and intend to use it for, airsoft. Just don't be irresponsible with it and you will be well within the confines of being a lovely law abiding citizen

[Mack]

Manufacturing a RIF is always ILLEGAL, You just have a defense against prosecution.

[Lozart]

Right, so having established all that can we maybe move this discussion back to the UK Law forum where it belongs rather than continue to fill this thread with legal willy waving?

[mambo]

Haha, legal willy waving

Well I get the idea of what I need to get started and what should I do at first place already so I don't mind to watch you guys wave your legal willies all over this thread. It's actually quite interesting

As I said, I'm not too bothered with my gun being potentially half blue. At the moment anyway. Plus I will be renting gear to begin with so it doesn't matter.

Thank you very much guys!

I shall give it a go then!