First Gun Conundrum

[Chock]

Don't get the Sten. I'm not saying it's not a good gun - I've got one myself - but it would be a terrible choice for a first gun. It only fires on full auto, and that would preclude you from using it at any site where you can't go full auto (and there are a few sites which have that rule, notably a lot of CQB sites).

 

As much as it might seem like an unadventurous choice, there are plenty of good reasons why lots of people go for the M4 and why so many of us recommend them on threads such as this one. This is especially the case if you go for something like the metal Combat Machine ones linked to on the preceding page of this thread. Only 149 quid for one of those is a bargain.

 

People will say an M4 is boring, but there are vastly more spare parts and upgrade bits and bobs for an M4 than there are for anything else, and that means upgrading or customising the thing is inexpensive, which in fact means that despite loads of people using M4s, it's rare to see two looking exactly the same at any skirmish. Spare M4 mags are cheap and widely available, most people have M4 mags at a skirmish and can lend you one if yours goes tits up, and in fact many site shops sell M4 mags because they are a commonly required item. I'm not the world's biggest fan of the M4 myself, but I do in fact tend to use one as my main gun much of the time simply because they are so good and practical for everything from CQB to woodland fighting, and if you get a metal one, they can really take a lot of punishment when you are rolling and diving around in the mud.

 

Don't get me wrong here, I've got loads of airsoft guns, AKs, G36s, MP5s, M14s etc, you name it, and will probably buy even more, but you can leave the obscure and more exotic choices until you are buying your second and third gun (and if you are anything like most airsofters, you will surely end up with many guns). A Combat Machine M4 is light, reliable, tough, easily upgradeable, inexpensive, easily customisable and looks good with many different sets of gear.

[Russe11]

It probably would bother me to have the same gun as everyone else, but I guess it would leave me money to customise...

The only reason for not getting a Sten that is worth considering is that you might not want a Sten, everything else can be sorted out. The simple addition of a burst wizard mosfet solved the indoor CQB site issue for me. I am really just trying to illustrate with the Sten that there are good options other than the Combat machine. The OP has made the above statement, which indicates to me that an M4 is really not the right choice for him. Yes you can customise an M4 but when I go to a normal skirmish, I tend to see 30-40 guys with M4's and maybe 2-3 AK's, L85's and G36's. I never really notice which rail system, torch, sight, peq box etc. is on the M4, its all just more of the same. I will notice an AK with nice wooden furniture or a G36 with anything other than the standard kit.

If you want a gun that is not the same as everyone else's, what you need to do is ignore all technical details, just look at the pictures and find a gun that you look at and it excites you. Then ask how to get one that is as good as possible within your budget.

[M_P]

So your advice to new players is to buy an impractical gun made for a very niche market?

People recommend g&g m4s for a reason, they perform well, are reliable and are practical for any new player. Yes they're very generic but that's the way it is because they're ideal.

 

You're coming from a viewpoint where ww2 stuff is more interesting to you but that's a minority, most new players come in wanting a cool looking weapon etc and with the best will in the world, the Sten looks like a part of a drainpipe.

[DX115FALCON]

I can totally see where Russe11 is coming from, but they are REALLY impractical as a first gun. The aforementioned lack of semi auto could be problematic if you are inexperienced in gun tech work such as fitting a MOSFET- which was a daunting experience for me when I fit mine. The post that I have linked in my signature will be pretty helpful to you if you are starting out. From my POV, the G&G is definitely the best gun if your starting out- a mistake that I made when I was getting started- due to the top notch internals and the low cost. Now that g&g do the metal ones, they are doubly worth getting.

[Lozart]

It probably would bother me to have the same gun as everyone else, but I guess it would leave me money to customise...

 

As you will have seen from the above threads there are very much two camps at play here.

 

One says get the Combat Machine because it's cheap, reliable, easy to maintain and there's plenty of parts available to customise.

The other says get anything but because M4s are the clitoris of airsoft (every c*%£'s got one).

 

If you're looking for something different then there is a whole world of weaponry out there. Which in itself can be a bit of a challenge because some of the nicest looking guns or more "unusual" guns aren't always the best performers. Something to take into account is also what gear (as in load bearing equipment) you might need. There's a far wider choice of kit available to work with the more common gun designs (G36's, M4's, AK's etc) but there's also a lot of - shall we say "generic" designs like the LBT1961 or the SAAV that will take all manner of magazines and bits and bobs. All depends on whether you're the sort of person that just wants something practical for the job in hand or if you want to try and recreate a particular look or load out. Very often trying to achieve a particular look will drive out the choice of gun - Brit kits dictate the L85, US the M4 etc.

 

The other thing to bear in mind is that while this is your first gun it's unlikely to be your last or indeed your only one. Airsoft is one of those hobbies that sucks your wallet dry at an alarming rate and if you get the bug then you need to expect to end up with a small armoury and more kit and gear than you could ever hope to use! For my money your first gun needs to be something reliable that won't put you off. It needs enough performance that YOU are the limiting factor not the gun. It needs to be a sufficiently ergonomic design such that you don't end up aching or chafed as a result of using it and it needs to have sufficient options for fitting the various bits of tactical frippery that nobody really needs but everyone wants. Finally it needs to have decent second hand value (both financially and in saleability) because let's face it - you might change your mind and decide that airsoft (be it the early Sunday mornings or the mongs that ruin your day or even the permanently empty wallet) just isn't for you after all.

 

A lot of those points will most likely drive you down the route of the Combat Machine M4. There's a very good reason why so many people have them and indeed why they are our usual "go to" recommendation!

[Sitting Duck]

CM16 - Raider (short ver I'd say over long ver I'd say if you do any cqb)

CM16 - FireHawk if you do loads of cqb

CM18 - just coz they look sexy (but come with 120mag - the others come with 300+ mag)

 

The above 3 are plastic/polymer but tough and not too heavy - battery at back

plus they got plenty of rails for adding crap to

 

2 x ltd editions have metal receivers @ about £150 but think both have battery at front and no so rail-ful

Cheaper CM Carbine is also good but no rails on front & battery at front too

 

I like battery at rear in stock coz easy to change and fit any battery in a fixed stubby stock or car battery in full size fixed stock

(that is just me - to each their own)

 

Or a cack-handed pig ugly un-ergonomic wtf is this thing AK - Cyma 028a etc... can edge in front of CM's in performance/stats

 

All of these will be under £150 which is half the price of ICS L85, yeah CM's are 10 a penny but they are excellent value for money

They are easy to pick up & use, ergonomic (comfortable and easier to peek left/right), very easy to source parts for or upgrades

(try getting a L85 gearbox quickly/cheaply in say 18 months time - not having a go but just pointing stuff out)

 

Think all this sort of covers why this forum runs on CM's and we should get commission & all that

They are very good guns £ for £ excellent value, perfect first gun choices (or AK is an option if you like)

Hence the reason why they are suggested so so so many many many times

[Ian_Gere]

Everything that Loz has just said is good advice, but just in case you are available to be recruited to the dark side, i will show you my first gun:

CM.028U Tactical AK-47 €91.14 + €15-ish shipping

You need a UKARA registration to import

and a spring downgrade

which twg will do for you

for the cost of the spring

(pm me for important deets)

[Sitting Duck]

I like the 28a coz battery in back but then that one is handy for cqb etc....

 

 

Your picture reminds me of:

 

 

Airsoft is just like Trigger's Broom (Fools & Horses)

 

I have the same gun for over 7 years....

It has only needed 4 new gearbox's, 3 new motor's, 2 new inner barrel's, 1 other outer barrel, 4 different stocks & grips etc....

 

How the hell can it be the same gun ???

 

Well here is a picture of it - what more proof do ya want !!!!!

 

ya see - us airsofter's have a saying that has been handed down through generations....

"Look after your gun"

 

And your gun will look after you ???

 

"No Dave - it's just look after your gun"

[grandwitch]

I appreciate all the advice but I can't work out whether the post has helped me or just given me more variables to consider . was just wandering what's the range like on the cm16?

[Chock]

Any of the guns you were originally considering on your first post on this thread will be okay. So just go with whatever floats your boat. Since there's not a lot to worry about in those original choices you were considering, what's probably more important is things like magazine capacity, whether the ergonomics suit you, whether you want metal or abs plastic, whether you fancy dressing up as a Yank, a Brit or a German special forces dude, etc.

 

Other things which might help you decide: G36 mags have that cool ability to clip the mags together in stacks, which means if you go for realistic capacity thirty round mags, then the G36 is a bit more practical for making fast mag changes, since you don't have to drop the spent mag or put it away, although you could of course tape mags together on other weapons 'jungle style', so it's not an exclusive feature, just more neatly achieved. If on the other hand you prefer high capacity mags, that's less of a concern with the M4 or L85, since there isn't much need to rapidly change a high capacity mag that often. The L85 on the other hand, like most bullpup designs, is not known for facilitating fast mag changes, so is a slightly worse choice if you do use realistic capacity magazines, nor is the L85 as suited to switching to firing left handed as a G36 or an M4, both of which have some ambidextrous features more suited to lefties. Most M4s have a collapsible five position stock, which means it is easy to get it sitting in your shoulder exactly right, and it can be made a bit shorter for the tight confines of CQB. With an airsoft G36, theoretically you could fold the stock and fire it, but if you favour realism, the real G36, whilst it can indeed be fired with the stock folded, is not intended to be used that way, since firing a real G36 with the stock folded causes internal damage to it, thus its folding stock is only really intended for storage and to facilitate getting in and out of helicopters and APCs. but of course if you don't worry about realism, then it's not a concern.

 

All three have plenty of rails, or can have them added, so they're all suited to putting scopes, lasers, tac lights, grenade launchers etc on them, although again, you'll find the M4 is easier to faff about with in that regard. The G36 is largely made from polymer in real life, so a plastic airsoft one actually looks and feels like the real thing more than a plastic M4 or L85 would, although to be fair, the novelty of having a real metal weapon is largely just that, a novelty, and makes little practical difference in airsoft unless you are the kind of person who likes to dramatically dive for cover, in which case a metal weapon might stand up to things a bit better.

 

The M4 is the most ubiquitous of the three, which means it suits a lot of loadouts and nationalities if you want to dress up in realistic camouflage, as it is used by several nation's armies, many special forces units, and a lot of swat teams and police forces, whereas the L85 is only used by the British Army, the Jamaican Defence Force and odd units around the world such as the Columbian Drug Squad, so it's less suited to a lot of different loadouts, but then again, if you really fancy dressing up like a Brit in Helmand Province, then it might be your ideal choice. The G36 is of course in a bit more widespread use than the L85, but it comes nowhere near the M4 in that respect, which aside from being popular with many legit forces, is far more likely to be a rebel or terrorist weapon than either the G36 or the L85, although if that notion floats your boat, then an AK of some description would be a more suitable choice of course, as well as opening up the possibility of dressing up as any one of a number of Eastern European or Middle Eastern military force dudes. You'll find a lot of us on here have Commie leanings (or at least we do when it comes to buying assault rifles ).

 

There are many other little things like that which might suit you or annoy you, such as the M4's fire selector easily able to be knocked into another position when on a sling rubbing against you, or the L85 being the best one for lying prone owing to its bullpup design, which also gives it the longest barrel too, the AK on the other hand, is fairly difficult to go prone with owing to that long ass mag digging into the ground and preventing you from really digging in, it is however, ideal for firing into the air whilst yelling in Arabic and will definitely legitimise your keffeyah.

 

Thinking about all that stuff might help you toward a decision.

[Ian_Gere]

Just to add that a G36KV comes with an adjustable stock and that stock can be fitted to any G36 variant - it's one of the reasons I bought one - an SRC (and i'm not sure i'd recommend it TBH because although it is a good gun, there are bits which are proprietary for no good reason, like the hop unit, which limits the upgrade potential somewhat).

[sp00n]

was just wandering what's the range like on the cm16?

 

Very good easily on par with more eexpensiveguns

[Guest PT247]

The L85 on the other hand, like most bullpup designs, is not known for facilitating fast mag changes, so is a slightly worse choice if you do use realistic capacity magazines, nor is the L85 as suited to switching to firing left handed as a G36 or an M4, both of which have some ambidextrous features more suited to lefties.

The L85 as an airsoft gun makes no difference whatsoever shooting left or right handed, ok the change lever is on the wrong side but people who fire semi only will never need to change it and those that spray and pray will also not really need to change it. (I am a lefty btw)

I may be unique here but I found mag changes faster with my L85 than I do with M4 variants... but then I learnt to shoot with real steel SA80's so was far more familiar with them.

[Russe11]

Couple of points: Yes I find WW2 weapons interesting and No I don't expect everyone to like them. This is why I suggested an SRC or JG G36 or a cyma AK before the sten.

A burst wizard Mosfet is a plug and play mosfet. It has 2 small Tamiya connectors and you plug it into the gun where the battery goes and you plug the battery into the mosfet. I would not consider that to be taxing for a beginner, although you can wire it into the gun as you would any other mosfet for additional functionality.

Yes a G&G combat machine is a good starter gun but so is a JG G36, a cyma AK, most MP5's... And yes the Sten is a suitable beginner gun if that person has stated that they play woodland (as opposed to CQB) and has said they would rather not have the same gun as everyone else. No-one is going to actually listen to that however, unless they see a Sten and think 'wow I want one', so I am safe in using it as a way to illustrate the range of guns available that are high quality, low budget weapons suitable for beginners. I just think we are too quick to think beginners gun=Combat machine without even reading the posts from the new players and asking questions. This is why I suggest that a new player gets a pic of their ideal gun, as I am sure we can between us match a gun pic to a suitable starter weapon and contribute to a bit more diversity at skirmish sites

 

From the original list that the OP made, I would suggest that the ICS L85 might be more of a 2nd gun rather than a beginners weapon. A TM G36 might be more money than you need to spend for a G36. TM guns are very high quality but there are some very decent G36's about for a lot less. CM16, yes a good choice for a beginner, all the previous answers about them cover it, I just think its the boring option.

[Chock]

The L85 as an airsoft gun makes no difference whatsoever shooting left or right handed

 

It does if it is gas blowback one, unless you fancy getting your earlobe ripped off

[Sitting Duck]

OP says he mainly plays woodland with a little bit of cqb

 

reckon instead of L85 get say AK or M4

and then if he wants get a G36c JG or Cyma type for cqb if main gun is too big

 

That way for around same price as L85-ish he has 2 guns for 2 play styles

which in any case is a spare should main gun go pear shape on him

 

if OP has been playing - what guns has he got used to ???

 

L85 could have advantage for range but AK would also over G36c or M4

I know peeps have gone cqb with L85 but think I'd prefer something else

 

End of the day it is up to OP but going on what they said I think I would:

 

M4 or AK for woods

G36c for cqb if ya main gun is a little long for tight turns etc....

(or cqb stubby M4 or going with Ian's dark side option....

could get AK 028u or similar and have possible one that does both sites

but that means you have no spare/backup gun if it plays up

quite likely at some point - pistol is an option but not in main gun fight

[Guest PT247]

 

It does if it is gas blowback one, unless you fancy getting your earlobe ripped off

Aye for sure, lol. Not sure many folk go for a GBBR for their first gun tho! ;-)

[TheFull9]

Have to say... if your ear ever got in the way of the reciprocating cocking handle, I could only presume you sights were mounted on the side of the gun and your cheek weld was somewhere on the magazine.

 

Despite what some internet commandos out there tend say, you can shoot the real thing left handed without losing teeth. Just only in a very specific, awkward stance and you'd not hit much past 15m I don't think, not without a lot of practice. But anyway, OP, long as it's from a reputable, trusted retailer and brand you cannot go too far wrong; if possible just go in to a shop and get hands on with whatever you can and you'll very quickly figure out what you really like. Half the time these threads end up being more for the old-salts than the new players anyway and it ends up going a bit too in depth, but ergonomics are an entirely individual thing that can't be experienced though the internet. For example, I was always certain that I'd really love the handling characteristics of the P90... handled a real one a couple of weeks back... not a fan it turned out, so you never do know.

[Chock]

Oh I'm not saying you cannot use an L85 left handed, just that it's not ideal for it, particularly considering that it was supposed to be a modern, more progressively-designed weapon which was supposedly taking haptics and ergonomics into account, but ended up having to be remanufactured by H&K and even then got rejected by numerous forces who evaluated it. That said, it's certainly not alone in not being ideal for lefties, but it is a lot poorer in that regard in comparison to many of its direct contemporaries, particularly bullpups when it comes to things such as the position of the ejection port and the charging handle.

 

Having fired the real L85, the SA80, as well as its its smaller chambered version for cadets - one of the advantages of having a friend who was an armourer for the SAS - I'm just of the opinion that I would not like having that charging handle and ejection port clattering away that close to my face if I was a lefty (not to mention it being a crapload louder). Although to be fair, there are certainly a lot of other weapons out there which are equally open to criticism for their various design features; even the M4, which i was advocating on this thread, has many points which one could be critical of.

 

Of course many of these issues are a moot point with airsoft versions, but it does at least make for an interesting discussion.

[Sitting Duck]

is why I said what gun has OP been using or used to

said it was OP's choice but merely pointed out a few considerations that was all

(first gun, ease of parts, general use or ergonomics all day peek left etc....)

 

Not saying you can't peek left with L85 but I think OP is not ultra experienced btw

would think f*ck this for a game of soldiers trying to peek left on a cqb site etc...

 

If there was one gun for all but alas there is not

even if there was peeps would still want something different to not follow heard

 

Suffice to say many - myself included use the "common" guns

yup got L85 - 2 in fact (just cheap Army Armament R85's btw not G&G or ICS)

but prefer the "everybody has one" M4 myself - but like I said to each their own

 

Yes if at all possible pop into shop and try to hold a weapon to get feel of it

Heck what do ya think dead zone or half time is for - chat & try another player's gun

All are good ways to really see if you really can "get on" with it

 

If you can't hold one and try it out then you are kind of guessing what you might be ok with

Hence I only offered my findings and suggestions - they are just my personal suggestions

they are not gonna be everybody's cuppa tea but in "general" think most will be ok for 1st gun

[Chock]

That's very true about holding stuff to see if you like it. I can remember the first time I held an Armalite, it was an AR-15 with the full stock, and I thought it was horrible the way the buttplate was so high up on the thing, since I was used to rifles where the stock is not inline with the receiver, as it is on Armalites, then of course you realise that it was designed like that because the carry handle places the rear pipper up high, so the whole main body of the gun has to sit a bit lower than is the case with a more conventional stock, so it does then place the buttplate in the right spot when you get used to holding it the correct way, but it was weird the first time I held one and wasn't used to the receiver being that low down. Nowadays I don't even think about that though; so you do get used to guns when you are familiar with them, which means it's probably not a great idea to dismiss any gun just off having held it for a few seconds.

[Ian_Gere]

I find the fire selector of AR-15 variants difficult to operate fully. My hands are quite large but my fingers are disproportionately longer, so when it comes to moving it back, where on a G36 i would use my index finger knuckle on the opposite side of the receiver, I have to move my whole hand partly off the pistol grip. But where people often complain about the ergonomics of AK's, I can operate the controls with my trigger finger without shifting my grip much at all.

 

It would have been a right ballache if i'd fancied an M4 and bought one before ever holding one.

[Chock]

Yup, I'd agree with you on that one, loads of people say the AK fire selector is poor, but I think it's good; I can easily operate it with my trigger finger, which to me seems like an intelligent and natural association in terms of haptics. Vastly better than the M16's fire selector, which to me seems to be tailor-made for accidentally getting knocked onto full auto or safe when it rubs against your webbing. I've lost count of the times in the past that my M4 has let rip on full auto at sites where they only allow semi, and I've had to quickly pop it back to semi, never had that happen with any AK.

 

In fairness, the M4's fire selector has now disciplined me to check the fire selector when an engagement is imminent, since I rarely use full auto anyway, but even so, I'd prefer to have something that stays where I'm fairly sure I left it in the first place!

 

That said, the M4's charging handle is better than that of the AK, in being completely ambidextrous, so there are indeed some aspects of the AK which could certainly be better than they are, and which the M4 does well, though I'll admit the AK is probably my favourite assault rifle, even with its faults.

[Lozart]

I find the fire selector of AR-15 variants difficult to operate fully. My hands are quite large but my fingers are disproportionately longer, so when it comes to moving it back, where on a G36 i would use my index finger knuckle on the opposite side of the receiver, I have to move my whole hand partly off the pistol grip. But where people often complain about the ergonomics of AK's, I can operate the controls with my trigger finger without shifting my grip much at all.

 

It would have been a right ballache if i'd fancied an M4 and bought one before ever holding one.

 

See - I have the opposite problem; my fingers are relatively short for the size of my hands. I have no problem operating my M4 fire selector with my thumb but I can't reach the little tab on my AK selector without taking my hand off the grip (which is why I have a tactical selector en route from Bunny Workshop). Now, granted I did have an issue with the base of my thumb knocking the M4 selector very slightly in use which would usually knock it just far enough to engage auto but that seems to have gone now since changing to a Magpul grip which by design positions my hand slightly further back. The fire selector can also be stiffened up by tightening the screw inside the receiver that holds it on.

 

Of all of the assault rifles I have the SCAR is by far the most easily useable fire selector. Instead of being a 9/12/3 o'clock position it's more of a 7/9/11 o'clock position and is ambidextrous. I tend to go up from safe to semi to auto using my thumb then back down again with my index finger first or second knuckle.

[Ian_Gere]

My fav so far is my L1A1 SLR - perfect position and size to be operated by my thumb without changing my grip at all, but my Ares L1A1 is such a pig that I haven't skirmished it enough to know if it is prone to being knocked rubbing against my gear. I suspect it may be, because it does have a proper press pad for your thumb. I'm very tempted by the JG SA58 which has a similar selector without the big press pad... but then again, it's on a long list of guns i want so i don't anticipate getting one any time soon