The ghillie discussion

[Impulse]

Continuing on from the How Did Your Airsoft Day Go? thread, there is definitely a debate going around about ghillies and leaf suits. With how easy they are now to get and the prevalence of certain big Youtubers, we definitely see a lot more of them now than we did in the past. Also, it used to be just snipers that used them, but now I think I've seen every "type" of airsoft gun in the hands of a ghillie (even LMGs!). While airsoft is a great game because everyone can play however they want, there has been discussion around ghillies and their use in airsoft.

 

From what I can see, the issues that come from it are:

 

Gameplay

I'm not going to sugarcoat it, but a large number of ghillies ruins the game for other people. People get disheartened very quickly in airsoft when they leave spawn, head towards the objective and get picked off by some invisible foe. Then they respawn, go elsewhere and the same happens, then the same happens again, and again, and again. Not all ghillies are created equally in this regard and the gameplay can be fine, but it can also get really bad. I've seen a far greater tendency for ghillies to spawn camp, maybe because they can get away with it easier, or maybe because of certain airsoft content creators who get these people into ghillie sniping who do it a lot and present it as legitimate gameplay strategy.

 

Hit taking

It can be difficult to feel BB impacts, especially at range, through a heavily crafted ghillie suit. Speaking from experience it's usually pretty obvious when you've been hit unless you're running (though that happens without the ghillie as well), but some people use this excuse to try and get away with just not calling their hits and blatantly cheating.

 

Availability

You can buy a Sprinter Custom Ghillie setup and not have to put in any effort yourself. About £725 and you get a full ghillie including trousers and a rifle wrap that is hard-wearing and works wonders, even under IR light (it doesn't glow under nightvision. One of my friends has one and he has never crafted onto it and it works really well. With a little effort, you can cut the costs down a lot, getting something like a Webtex Concealment Vest and cable-tying pre-dyed materials like the KMCS crafting materials or the Novritsch stuff onto it. It's not hard, all it takes is a bit of time. This ease of acquisition increases the number of ghillies out there, as people no longer have to put in the effort they used to, shredding hessian sacks, dyeing the material in a bucket and then sewing it into BDUs or onto a concealment vest.

 

Setups

A ghillie suit, especially a well-crafted one, is typically a net positive. They're far lighter than they used to be, they're a lot more breathable and they're far easier to get a hold of. Yes, someone with crap fieldcraft will still be easily spotted and I do so enjoy hunting crappy ghillie players; standing in the open atop a hill with nothing behind you, or simply moving a lot will still get you spotted; it's not an invisibility cloak! However, you'd be seen in regular BDUs as well doing the same, but the difference is if you sit against a tree or a bush in BDUs you are more likely to be seen than someone doing the same in a ghillie. Back in the day, a ghillie tended to mean a bolt action rifle (when I say back in the day, my frame of reference is about 14 - 16 years ago), but nowadays that ghillie might have a totally silent MTW with 7 high caps, a wankergun trigger setup and some ungodly ROF full auto so you can no longer just overwhelm with numbers like you used to as they will just hose everyone down and still possibly go completely undetected

 

I've probably missed a beat, but this is from my perspective as a long time ghillie sniper. I've been doing it since about 2007, so I would like to think I have a lot of experience being the bush (or the grass). There may be things I've missed from the other side of it. As I said earlier, there has to be some concessions now as the combination of these four things above can lead to really crappy gameplay that is just not fun for the majority of players. Furthermore, being a victim of this style of play will make some people quit, but is more likely to make more players start to bleed into this style of gameplay, further increasing the issues. Not everyone wants to wear a ghillie though, and will continue to be a victim of this gameplay because airsoft isn't purely about skirmish. Some players enjoy impression kit, putting together a loadout that perfectly mirrors a real-world unit or time period. Some players enjoy the general dress-up aspect of the hobby and will wear camo that may not work well, but it looks great with their kit. Some players enjoy playing speedy and don't want a ghillie suit snagging on stuff and dragging half the forest floor with them. Some people just... don't like ghillies. All of these are valid playstyles and shouldn't feel oppressed because someone has spent £725 on a full SCG suit and wrap, then also spent £1000 on some swanky MTW setup. It's not quite to the same level, but it's getting closer to the "NVG/thermal vs no NVG/thermal during night games" debate (though I definitely still think that NVGs/thermals are more pay-to-win than ghillies)

 

Anyway, I've rambled enough about problems, because we Brits love to complain about stuff; it's like a national past-time. So, what about solutions? I've got these ones off the top of my head, but there are definitely more possible solutions out there

 

Restrict ghillies to BASRs or DMRs

This is the solution that I think works best. If you know that a ghillie is going to have a 30m MED and be very limited on rate of fire, you know that you can overwhelm them with numbers. Also, a lot of people don't like playing with BASRs, and some sites have really, really unfavourable DMR rules (Gunman for example has a 1.48J DMR limit with a 30m MED), so this will also lower the number of players who will go with a ghillie. Yes, there are some intricacies that could be exploited with this. For example, someone can carry a lightweight VSR on a sling and then some sort of HPA mp5k, so it might be a case of also ruling that it has to be a pistol secondary. A full auto GBB like an AAP-01 is very audible and the consistency is crap unless you HPA it (still audible though), a full auto AEP is just as audible as an AEG and a NBB mk23 is quiet, but absolutely sucks for fast shooting, so there are plenty of trade-offs with pistol options. Some sites limit it to just BASRs (like Imperium in Kent), but I think letting DMRs have ghillies as well is fair as you still have that MED to deal with and plenty of real-world snipers use semi-auto platforms, so immersion airsofters like me will still like to have the option to run something like an SR-25 at DMR power and play just like a sniper. I think there's a balancing act here with ruling against fringe cases, but also not over-complicating things as plenty of airsofters either don't like to think, or just aren't very good at it 😂

 

Limit ghillies

You could have limited spaces available to book on a game day for ghillies. Sold separately and no walk-ons. I think this would be really difficult to implement and enforce, but it would put a hard limit on the amount of ghillies in a game. Most milsims will have this because they limit ghillies to only snipers and their paired spotter and have a hard cap on the number of snipers at an event, but I think for skirmish games this would be a mess.

 

Ban all ghillies

I mean... it'd solve the problem, right? I personally don't think this is the way forward though as there are plenty of players who legitimately love playing the ghillie sniper role and do so without issue.

[Shamal]

I think sniping should be age regulated.

Make it for the over 60 age group. That would limit the numbers and speaking for myself I'm not as fast as I used to be so it would be a much more relaxed game for me. I don't mind paying £30 to lay down,take a shot now and again,have a nap in between times and shoot a few more leaves.

I could come home from a game without injuries and feeling refreshed.

Sounds good to me lol.

 

 

The above is just light hearted not a serious suggestion. 👍

 

Regards 

[Tommikka]

21 minutes ago, Shamal said:

I think sniping should be age regulated.

Make it for the over 60 age group. That would limit the numbers and speaking for myself I'm not as fast as I used to be so it would be a much more relaxed game for me. I don't mind paying £30 to lay down,take a shot now and again,have a nap in between times and shoot a few more leaves.

I could come home from a game without injuries and feeling refreshed.

Sounds good to me lol.

 

 

The above is just light hearted not a serious suggestion. 👍

 

Regards 

I’ll accept camping status when I’m 60, but now in my 50s with a preference to lighten my load down to T shirt or jersey, jeans / trousers and minimal load …… sod wearing a ghillie when I’m 60

[LMKipper]

Yeah I think just enforcing ghillies as a DMR/Boltie thing would be the simplest and fairest solution.

I'd really welcome it if I saw a site advertise it.

 

A game last week ended up a bit of a stalemate quite quickly as there were a pair of ghillies armed with full auto HPA set ups that made advancing nearly impossible.

[Rogerborg]

29 minutes ago, Shamal said:

I think sniping should be age regulated.

Make it for the over 60 age group.

 

Yes, I agree, over 50s only.  

 

It's a tricky one, because it's quite a broad hobby and we're all there to have fun in different ways.  It's only when my fun interferes with yours that it becomes an issue - and Bush Wookies are a problem in that respect, especially when given plenty of time to take root.

 

If you limit numbers, then who gets to wear their £700 PE kit, and who has to play in their underwear?

 

Limiting them to snipers and DMRs, OK, but there's already a surfeit of those.  I often eschew or stop sniping on days when there too much of it going on, and only wear a sniper veil and DPM 95 (the best DPM) but that's a personal choice, not something that I'd like to see enforced on anyone.

 

My usual solution applies: ban everyone and everything from this hobby, problem solved.

 

 

[GenuineGerman]

Ah imagine before too long all Airsoft fields across the nation quiet and peaceful. Not because nobody goes Airsofting anymore, no, because everyone is a secret squirrel sniper and hiding in a bush or a tree in their KMCS. 
 

Make sure to bring a flask 😀

Edited April 8 by GenuineGerman

[Asomodai]

Personally I think Ghillies should be restricted to BASR users only. Not even DMR.

 

There have been more M4 HPA equipped Ghillie users at the last three sites I have gone to than BASR Users. 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 8 by Asomodai

[mrfoxhound]

if you are using a ghillie suit on a saturday or sunday skirmish , you misunderstand the concept of camouflage completely, if you are using it to hide and get close range kills ,  you misunderstand the concept of camouflage completely .

[Badgerlicious]

2 minutes ago, mrfoxhound said:

if you are using a ghillie suit on a saturday or sunday skirmish , you misunderstand the concept of camouflage completely, if you are using it to hide and get close range kills ,  you misunderstand the concept of camouflage completely .

so what's camouflage doing if it's not hiding you? 

[mrfoxhound]

3 minutes ago, Badgerlicious said:

so what's camouflage doing if it's not hiding you? 

camouflage is not used to hide you, its to disrupt the outline of the human shape to make you harder to shoot at ranges of 300m+ i could have non camouflage clothing on standing still in woods and not untill i move would you see me 

Edited April 8 by mrfoxhound

[Badgerlicious]

3 minutes ago, mrfoxhound said:

camouflage is not used to hide you, its to disrupt the outline of the human shape to make you harder to shoot at ranges of 300m+ 

Okay, and the point of a ghillie is to move through an observed area unseen, so I'm not sure what you point is. 

 

And that's the use case of military issued camouflage clothing, not all camouflage. 

Edited April 8 by Badgerlicious

[Impulse]

1 minute ago, mrfoxhound said:

camouflage is not used to hide you, its to disrupt the outline of the human shape to make you harder to shoot at ranges of 300m+ 

 

 

Could've fooled me...

[mrfoxhound]

1 minute ago, Impulse said:

 

 

Could've fooled me...

yes the dictionary definition is to hide but im talking about practical applications 

2 minutes ago, Badgerlicious said:

Okay, and the point of a ghillie is to move through an observed area unseen, so I'm not sure what you point is. 

you can move thru any area unseen , dont need a ghillie to accomplish that 

[Badgerlicious]

2 minutes ago, mrfoxhound said:

you can move thru any area unseen , dont need a ghillie to accomplish that 

I agree, it's not required, but it helps. It also lets you get away with being unseen in places you have no right to be unseen in. And as pretty much all airsoft games are within 100m, having good camo for your area, including 3d camo, is an advantage. 

[mrfoxhound]

1 minute ago, Badgerlicious said:

I agree, it's not required, but it helps. It also lets you get away with being unseen in places you have no right to be unseen in. And as pretty much all airsoft games are within 100m, having good camo for your area, including 3d camo, is an advantage. 

it depends on the site and the type of softing you are doing , saturday/sunday skirmish worthless , filmsim milsim sure 

[Badgerlicious]

4 minutes ago, mrfoxhound said:

it depends on the site and the type of softing you are doing , saturday/sunday skirmish worthless , filmsim milsim sure 

Even then it depends on the games. Some games don't cater well to a ghillie, but some do. Holding large areas, either the point itself or flanks, can be very effective in some game types. Defence, flanking, and ambush plays is where ghillies can shine. Or... not shine, heh. A ghillie isn't required, but again, it can make those things easier. 

Edited April 8 by Badgerlicious

[Impulse]

Just now, mrfoxhound said:

it depends on the site and the type of softing you are doing , saturday/sunday skirmish worthless , filmsim milsim sure 

 

Why is filmsim or milsim any different? I do Vietnam filmsim games every year at Gunman and I'm not seeing why a ghillie at a skirmish is any different to my time-appropriate scrim-net-covered-in-ferns-and-stuff approach at Vietnam games. At the end of the day, it all comes down to slinging plastic balls at each other with toy guns and trying to remain undetected.

 

I'd argue that milsim has more concerns with concealment than ghillie suits alone because people own thermal imaging equipment and tend to bring them to milsims. Nobody would be foolish enough to do so at a skirmish though, because imagine if your multi-thousand pound piece of equipment gets shot out by a rental spraying full auto at you 😂

[mrfoxhound]

1 minute ago, Badgerlicious said:

Even then it depends on the games. Some games don't cater well to a ghillie, but some do. Holding large areas, either the point itself or flanks, can be very effective in some game types. Defence, flanking, and ambush plays is where ghillies can shine. Or... not shine, heh. 

ghillies not required to do that tho 

[Badgerlicious]

I added an edit. Not required, but can make it easier

[mrfoxhound]

1 minute ago, Impulse said:

 

Why is filmsim or milsim any different? I do Vietnam filmsim games every year at Gunman and I'm not seeing why a ghillie at a skirmish is any different to my time-appropriate scrim-net-covered-in-ferns-and-stuff approach at Vietnam games. At the end of the day, it all comes down to slinging plastic balls at each other with toy guns and trying to remain undetected.

 

I'd argue that milsim has more concerns with concealment than ghillie suits alone because people own thermal imaging equipment and tend to bring them to milsims. Nobody would be foolish enough to do so at a skirmish though, because imagine if your multi-thousand pound piece of equipment gets shot out by a rental spraying full auto at you 😂

thats the point of milsim tho right military simulation , so everything is being as close to the real thing ,so recon and forward observers would be using ghillie i would assume  so i would more likley would see them at milsim , the whole thermal  and nvg is power creep issue ,which i dont think any one can come up with a sensible answer for  

2 minutes ago, Badgerlicious said:

I added an edit. Not required, but can make it easier

👍

[Impulse]

2 minutes ago, mrfoxhound said:

ghillies not required to do that tho 

 

I get the feeling you're the kind of person who would argue that "well, you don't really need an airsoft gun to play airsoft" because at the end of the day you can run around with a rubber knife trying to sneak up on and knife kill everyone.

 

Nobody is saying "you need a ghillie to hide", we're saying it makes it easier and at least in my... 17(ish) years of playing as a ghillie in airsoft, I have a lot of first-hand experience of that being the case.

[Fatboy40]

15 minutes ago, mrfoxhound said:

you can move thru any area unseen , dont need a ghillie to accomplish that 

 

Umm... not if you're dressed in Adidas trackies and one of those CoD skull mask thingies, you stick out like a sore thumb and are begging to be hit.

 

Are you intentionally being a troll?

[Badgerlicious]

Just now, Fatboy40 said:

 

Umm... not if you're dressed in Adidas trackies and one of those CoD skull mask thingies, you stick out like a sore thumb and are begging to be hit.

 

Are you intentionally being a troll?

He's not entirely wrong. With careful movement you can move through most areas (with some vegetation) unseen. But a good ghillie really opens up your options for movement. It can also buy you time when someone knows roughly where you are. And it can get people to walk right past you when you're in otherwise incredibly obvious spots. 

[mrfoxhound]

1 minute ago, Impulse said:

 

I get the feeling you're the kind of person who would argue that "well, you don't really need an airsoft gun to play airsoft" because at the end of the day you can run around with a rubber knife trying to sneak up on and knife kill everyone.

 

Nobody is saying "you need a ghillie to hide", we're saying it makes it easier and at least in my... 17(ish) years of playing as a ghillie in airsoft, I have a lot of first-hand experience of that being the case.

in my 17 years of softing across all aspects of the hobby running a ghillie on sat/sun skirmish is worthless 

[Fatboy40]

27 minutes ago, mrfoxhound said:

camouflage is not used to hide you, its to disrupt the outline of the human shape...

 

Damn, if only I knew this sooner, I'd just slip a few carboard boxes from Aldi over my body parts and I'd be invisible 🤯

Edited April 8 by Fatboy40