Just-Cos …. The insurance policy

[Tommikka]

As per a recent related thread, I signed up to Just-Cos to get the true cover information.

 

A member of the forum recently signed up to Just-Cos to obtain their ‘defence’ to purchase a RIF.  In their actual transaction they were required to submit the insurance certificate and a photo of them playing.

(Below I will show the certificate that you get upon joining Just-Cos which does not insure you, but the group/society)

The ‘defence’ provided and used by the retailer was therefore the playing photo which rendered JustCos membership redundant to the transaction …. TBC

[Tommikka]

1) Go to the Just-Cos website and read the meaningless page:

 

https://www.just-cos.co.uk
 

 

Just-Cos is a membership based insurance policy. We approached them with a view to covering CosPlayers with Public Liability insurance in their right as a re-enactor to wear and carry costume articles that may prove alarming or ‘scary’ to third parties who may not understand our purpose. This policy particularly covers the right to carry imitation weaponry that could otherwise be mistaken as real or mistakenly reported as an offensive weapon.

In today’s ‘Americanised’ legal system of ‘No claim no fee’ companies and similar ambulance chasers, it is now more important than ever to be protected by insurance. It’s better to be safe than sorry, right?

Just-Cos is exactly that: It’s just for us CosPlayers.

You can join up for a small annual fee of £20, that’s it. For your £20 you will receive £5 million maximum claim cover against public liability. It’s quite unlikely that you’ll ever need to use it and we sincerely hope you don’t! That is not all though. 

With membership we have power! We can use our strength in numbers to apply for discounts and other awesome deals on behalf of the club. This is just the beginning and it’s your chance to be part of it.

 

America is irrelevant, you can’t claim

for seeing something scarey in the UK (other than being put into genuine fear) and you can’t but a ‘right’ to carry a RIF

You can have good reason to transport one - eg going to / from an event

What is relevant is you could be held liable for injury / damage to property - and liability insurance can be handy to have (not essential for individuals)

 

2) Sign up to Just-Cos

As you create a user name and password you gain access to their member area.  I received my notification email whilst going to the payment page (so I stopped to check if policy details were there - they were not)

 

3) Pay £20 by card or PayPal

(I used PayPal)

You then gain access to policy documents in the members area

 

4) What does the policy say?

 

 Insurance Company = Zurich Insurance Ltd

Our Reference: xxxxxxxxx
Name of Insured: Just-Cos
This is to confirm that Just-Cos have in force with this Company until the
policy expiry on 17 May 2024 insurance incorporating the following essential
features:
Policy Number: xxxxxxxx
Renewal Date: 18 May 2024
Limits of Indemnity:
Public Liability: £5,000,000 any one event
Products Liability: £5,000,000 for all claims in the aggregate during
any one period of insurance
Pollution Liability: As per Products Liability
Professional
Services Extension:
£1,000,000 any one event
Note: Cover for Financial Loss, and Third Party
Property Damage or Bodily Injury is provided where arising from advice or services carried out by the Insured in the furtherance of its purpose as a registered charity or not-for-profit organisation.
Excess:
Public Liability: Nil any one claim
Products Liability: Nil any one claim
Pollution Liability: Nil any one claim
Professional Services Extension: Nil any one claim
Indemnity to Principals:
Covers include a standard Indemnity to Principals Clause in respect of
contractual obligations.
Full Policy:
The policy documents should be referred to for details of full cover.

 

What does that mean?

The policy insures Just-Cos.  That’s OK, as I’ve joined Just-Cos

The £5m cover isn’t mine. It’s £5m public liability per event.  So if just me then I can be covered up to £5m, but elsewhere there are 100 to 500 members per event, rendering the cover to between £10k and £50k each 

Another document is enclosed, which tells us that Just-Cos run 4 cinema trips and attend 4 events per year

Therefore as a member the insurance above covers Just-Cos and the members attending those 4 trips & 4 events 

There is a newsletter subscription in the account details, so presumably I would be notified of the trips & events - but that’s no good to me for the cosplay events I attend unless Just-Cos align with them

As a new member I have not been provided the code of conduct (but it may follow in a newsletter etc)

 

Your organisation type:	You are a not for profit group.
Your aim: Describes our understanding of your organisation and its aim.	To promote social interaction between members by using Cosplay.
Your principal activities and services: This details your activities and services. Where and tow oen ese lake place.	• You organise around 4 cinema trips a year at screenings which are open to the public. These will average around 6 around 20 At arenio, mentio bute group may. dress up to watch the film if they wish, however this is optional as the main purpose is to view the film. • You will attend around 4 third party events throughout the year and can get between 100 - 500 people from the organisation attending each one. These will mainly be Cosplay conventions and involve members of the group carrying replica weapons whilst interacting with other members of the group and members of the public. • You will charge a membership fee which will predominantly be used to create a Database. This will also help grow your organisation and fund towards future activities.
Your current Risk Management: Provides details of your organisations risk management provisions for each service and activity	You will comply with all local and national laws for transporting replica firearms and weapons. and wilpons are in vil of re puaional laws when replica frearms. You will comply with all third party regulations. You complete written risk assessments. Inductions are given to all new members regarding the organisation's code of conduct. You have a written safeguarding process in place.
Your structure	You have at least three trustees.
Previous claims	New organisation so no previous claims.

Currently the policy does not relate to the public web page, and does not insure members other than as part of a Just-Cos group attended event - the cover is for the groups liabilty as a result of its ‘advice’ / ‘services’

 

I don’t give advice on behalf of Just-Cos, I won’t be providing services as Just-Cos

 

Where I do provide advice and/or services it is part of other organisations / groups / as an event organiser - which do not fall within this insurance

 

I could make use of the peace of mind of public liability insurance to cover my personal liability in activities I participate in - At comicons for example I am covered as staff / volunteer in events and with traders, but not for any actions should I choose to Cosplay beyond the scope of staff / volunteer 

 

This sums up as a mis-sold policy, not fit for purpose 

 

 

 

 

[Tommikka]

Regarding the number of events per year, I’ve already attended 4 and have 13 confirmed for the rest of the season

[Good day]

17 hours ago, Tommikka said:

Regarding the number of events per year, I’ve already attended 4 and have 13 confirmed for the rest of the season

So it does act as a defence? 
 

there is so much conflicting information, and considering most places don’t have these laws and the laws haven’t really made a difference why even keep supporting them or wanting more restrictions for toys?

[Tommikka]

2 hours ago, Good day said:

So it does act as a defence? 
 

No, it doesn’t 

 

The 4 + 13 events that I referenced for this year are comicons, steam punk shows (cosplay with a higher average age) and alt cons (alternative people)

 

I don’t go as a paying customer/public, I’m not a member of a cosplay society, but I go as a trader.  Existing PLI that I’m under could exclude anything odd

 

 

A personal liability insurance for dressing up, carrying equipment / props might have actually been appropriate 

But it doesn’t insure me, and there is no such thing as a cosplay defence for RIFs

 

In the other recent thread a different member of the forum signed up to Just-Cos to buy a RIF - the shop required him to send a photo playing airsoft which is what they will have used as a defence 

 

 

( Note that I don’t even need a defence to buy airsoft RIFs - I don’t play airsoft, but I do run paintball & airsoft events)

[Tommikka]

 

 

Just-Cos - the follow up.

 

As everyone ought to know, I’m not an airsofter but a paintballer, and my airsoft interest is primarily as a game organiser / for the crossover in hobbies that involve shooting each other.

I purchased Just-Cos membership to finally get answers to my questions on what it actually provides, £20 for peace of mind and if it actually provided cosplay personal liability insurance I do have a use for it.

 

 

Following seeing the two documents, I emailed Just-Cos for clarification / cancellation as the cover is based on group 4 x cinema visits and 4 x event attendance.    Reading the documents as written it would not cover me for my Comic-Con trips.

No response (though only allowing a couple of days, so I then raised an eBay case of ‘not as described’ sending screen shots of the Just-Cos web page and subsequent documents 

(I could have given them longer on the email, but I always recommend using the appropriate process - if you wait then your process time is potentially ticking away)

 

The following comms are edited to get the jist of it.

 

My claim:

 

The advertised cover is insurance to the individual The provided policy is group cover for organised cinema group visits and group attendance of 4 events This therefore provides no personal cover for myself at events I attend (with 13 more planned this year)

 

Cosplayer Worlds response:

You have misread the policy. It is individual insurance that has been in place for 7 years without any issues at all. The cinema part of it mentioned was an additional section of cover added because we initially held events at cinemas where we block booked the venues. Therefore we held that as additional cover as required by Zurich insurance. The cover is to insure claims against an individual or individual(s) -a group- in a single claim. Therefore, you are covered exactly as advertised.

 

Me, not convinced, and their response focused on the cinema visits rather than the limited events. I’m not fussed as to whether or not there are cinema trips, of which it would be my choice to turn up or not.  I’m swaying, so if they would back up that I’m covered (or make a convincing explicit statement of such) then I could retain it 

 

The cinema visits would have been incidental, and the event cover being the applicable area. Of the two documents the named cover is for Just-Cos (which is normal as a group etc), but the second document does state that “around 4 events” are attended. My concern is that it is documented that cover is for any event attended by any member. To date this year (prior to signing up) I have already attended 4 events and have another 13 confirmed for the remainder. I would expect to be attending a minimum of 17 events in the 13 month membership period

 

Cosplayer World Ltd:

I understand your concern however I can assure you that the limited attendance only applies to the group cinema visits. The policy underwriters considered it a greater risk to have a ‘large number’ of people in ‘fancy dress’ as they didn’t understand Cosplay was the same as re-enactment (which opened another tin of worms as they envisioned soldiers running around) were in fear of one of our group running around a PUBLIC centre with a replica firearm. So they made a pint of the limitation as a sub-clause. We stopped the cinema events after only three held, due to poor attendance, so the policy has only been in place for individuals as a VCRA exemption for the last 5 1/2 years. We will ask for the cinema clause to be removed on the next policy renewal to avoid any future confusion.

 

They have made the wrong response - they were telling me covers unlimited, but have just told me that the insurers have enforced the numbers as limited - which contradicts them 

But the worse part - they have brought up the VCRA.  (Stating what we all know, that JustCos is a dodgy RIF sales defence) 

There is no cosplay defence in the VCRA. (And if extra defences can be madeI have other memberships which are more appropriate for my activities)

 

Me:

Note that I do not require a VCRA exemption as I am not an airsofter. The advertised service is for cosplay, as you have confirmed this to be cover to provide a VCRA exemption then this is definately unsuitable for my purposes - the events that I have referred to are Comicons, Alt conventions and Steam Punk events The VCRA has no provision for cosplay as a defence

 

 

Cosplayer World Ltd

I don’t have any more time to waste with you on this as you obviously seem to be bored and just want an argument. The VCRA section is an addition to the base policy INDIVIDUAL cosplayer cover. The same as the cinema ADDITION for groups that I already clearly explained. The VCRA section is just there, you don’t have to use it. It’s part of the whole package that we provide you for a measly £20 a year. If you have car or home insurance, you don’t have to, nor are you expected to have a fire, flood, theft or accident at once. It’s also part of the whole insurance package, for your own peace of mind. I’m refunding and cancelling your policy as I personally consider your lack of basic understanding to be an additional risk in itself. Goodbye and good luck.

 

I’m too stupid for Just-Cos membership and I can’t read policy documents - or am I just too stupid to think there is a CosPlay membership & insurance scheme as opposed to a dodgy VCRA defence ?

 

 

 

I’ve had my £20 refunded and am no longer a member of Just-Cos

[Pseudotectonic]

Can you post the full policy?

[Tommikka]

3 hours ago, Pseudotectonic said:

Can you post the full policy?

No.

They refused to provide the full policy 

 

All that is available are the two documents of the policy summary and the “how you described yourself”

Summarised in the text of part 4 of the second post above, and I’ll attach them now, but at a later date may need to downsize them for profile size allowances

 

[Pseudotectonic]

From your conversation with them, my understanding of what they are saying, the cinema visits cover is additional to the base cover, it is an extra bit, and the 4 visit limitation is only for this extra bit of cover, and does not apply to the base  cover.

 

Re VCRA they are also saying it is another additional bit they've added. On top of the base cover.

 

But without seeing the full package of policy it's impossible to check...

[Cannonfodder]

Cosplay is the same as reenactment? Now they're really taking the piss

 

The last reply along with the refund makes me think they know its a steaming pile of bullshit and they paid out to stop it potentially going further 

[Rogerborg]

Thanks for doing this. I mean, we knew that it was a farce, but it's fun to see what passes for their thinking.

 

3 hours ago, Cannonfodder said:

they paid out to stop it potentially going further 

 

I wonder what the next steps would be.  We don't want any attention brought on airsoft, but it seems like a financial service being mis-sold.

 

The usual sequence would be: complaint to company -> Financial Ombudsman Service, but as this is a naked scam, straight to the FCA might be an option.

[Cannonfodder]

What particularly annoys me about this is that I remember airsoft world being quite vocal about how they were so involved in getting our defence, yet seem to be looking at ways round it at every opportunity 

[Tackle]

That last bit:

Cosplayer World Ltd

"I don’t have any more time to waste with you on this as you obviously seem to be bored and just want an argument. The VCRA section is an addition to the base policy INDIVIDUAL cosplayer cover. The same as the cinema ADDITION for groups that I already clearly explained. The VCRA section is just there, you don’t have to use it. It’s part of the whole package that we provide you for a measly £20 a year. If you have car or home insurance, you don’t have to, nor are you expected to have a fire, flood, theft or accident at once. It’s also part of the whole insurance package, for your own peace of mind. I’m refunding and cancelling your policy as I personally consider your lack of basic understanding to be an additional risk in itself. Goodbye and good luck."

 

They (he) knows they've been rumbled & trying to get out while blaming @Tommikka for being too stupid to understand their bullshit (obviously he's a paintballer so not the full ticket🤪).

definitely a scam of sorts, although those who have used it to bypass the vcra may argue otherwise.

Shame on the retailers that accept it alongside ukara, their greed also puts the game at risk, the people behind ukara should withdraw it from the retailers that accept cos-play.

[Rogerborg]

1 hour ago, Tackle said:

the people behind ukara should withdraw it from the retailers that accept cos-play.

 

They get paid something like £300 a year per retailer for access to their Excel spreadsheet. Which highlights the risk of being reliant on an organisation that views it as an income source rather than a passion project.

[Tommikka]

5 hours ago, Rogerborg said:

 

 

 

I wonder what the next steps would be.  We don't want any attention brought on airsoft, but it seems like a financial service being mis-sold.

 

The usual sequence would be: complaint to company -> Financial Ombudsman Service, but as this is a naked scam, straight to the FCA might be an option.

I certainly wouldn’t want to go there, it could easily backfire on our hobbies, and prefer something like this to highlight for those who might make a decision 

 

But the ‘advertised’ service is insurance, which does mean that Just-Cos are advertising a financial service rather than group / society membership, and are not a provider.

 

The true insurer, Zurich, have sold insurance that does exist.

Sloppy wording on the side of Just-Cos for a nudge nudge wink wink ‘insurance’ and ‘defence’

[Rogerborg]

9 minutes ago, Tommikka said:

The true insurer, Zurich, have sold insurance that does exist.

 

I'd be fascinated to know what risks they believe they're indemnifying though.

 

 

10 minutes ago, Tommikka said:

I certainly wouldn’t want to go there, it could easily backfire on our hobbies

 

So could ignoring it, when it's going on right in the open.  If it could please just silently self-delete, that would be splendid.

 

[Tommikka]

9 hours ago, Pseudotectonic said:

From your conversation with them, my understanding of what they are saying, the cinema visits cover is additional to the base cover, it is an extra bit, and the 4 visit limitation is only for this extra bit of cover, and does not apply to the base  cover.

 

Re VCRA they are also saying it is another additional bit they've added. On top of the base cover.

 

But without seeing the full package of policy it's impossible to check...

I would still disagree.  Their messages try to say this, but the Zurich certificate confirms that there is public liability insurance provided to the Just-Cos group / society.  
The qualifiers on the other document (page 3 of 5 - either an extract from the policy or one of the supporting documents) tells me something about the scope of the policy application and therefore restrictions - it reads to me as a cosplay societies insurance policy, which would apply to an organised group attending an event - exactly as will happen this weekend - I will be at Weymouth for a Comic-Con which a cosplay society is attending, they will be paid ‘featured’ attendees wandering around and interacting with the public.  
 

I also have not been sent a code of conduct nor the Just-Cos risk assessment / mitigations 

 

 

 

[Pseudotectonic]

That's the thing, I'm not sure those are "qualifiers", but again, without the full documents nobody can say for sure (could be just some cost calculation document)

 

--

 

https://www.zurich.co.uk/charity-insurance/public-liability

 

Quote

Are events covered under Public Liability insurance?

As standard, our charity Public Liability insurance includes cover for up to 12 events per year, with less than 500 people attending at any one time. These could range from a summer fete to a sponsored walk. If you organise more than 12 events a year, or have more than 500 people attending, cover can be increased at an additional cost.

 

Not sure why they say it's an extra bit, because the events don't even add up to 12

 

--

 

For the purpose of VCRA, cosplay is surely not "historical re-enactment" (see VCRA 2006 definition) because it is not historical, so the only route of defence for cosplay is via "acting out of military or law enforcement scenarios for the purposes of recreation" i.e. a "permitted activity" under the RIF Regulations 2007. Which triggers the requirement for public liability insurance, which is covered here.

 

--

 

I don't think they are necessarily bullshitting, I can understand what they say and I think it is possible they have all these covers and limitations sorted, but again, without the full package of documents, nobody can say for sure.

 

If they could stop cosplaying batman being all stealthy and secretive and just upload the whole package of documents they wouldn't have caused such levels of suspicion.

[Dan Robinson]

16 hours ago, Rogerborg said:

I'd be fascinated to know what risks they believe they're indemnifying though.

 

 

This!  I am still unclear as to what this insurance is for (other than bypassing the pew defense issue).  Is it in case a cosplayer with a tail/axe/pointy ears puts someone's eye out an a convention?

[Pseudotectonic]

Supposedly that is what the public liability cover is for

 

Zurich has a nice PDF explaining each type of cover (see Part F – Public liability on page 55)

 

And reading more about it, it should only cover an employee/volunteer working for Just-Cos while under direct control or supervision, so I don't know how this works with a cosplayer club

 

Although if someone's tail injured someone at the convention, it could be the convention/event organiser's responsibility (supposedly they are keeping the cosplayers in check with rules and protocols and so on) so it would be the convention's insurance to pay out, rather than Just-Cos, because they are not the organiser

[John_W]

Well, a "Cosplayer" on their way to an event has realy stirred things up...

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-14349311/amp/moment-man-sniper-rifle-Elizabeth-line.html

[ButcherBill]

Fucking IDIOT.

[Tommikka]

12 minutes ago, John_W said:

Well, a "Cosplayer" on their way to an event has realy stirred things up...

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-14349311/amp/moment-man-sniper-rifle-Elizabeth-line.html

 

9 minutes ago, ButcherBill said:

Fucking IDIOT.

Perhaps he took JustCos on their word:

 

 

covering CosPlayers with Public Liability insurance in their right as a re-enactor to wear and carry costume articles that may prove alarming or ‘scary’ to third parties who may not understand ourpurpose. This policy particularly covers the right to carry imitation weaponry that could otherwise be mistaken asreal or mistakenly reported as an offensive weapon.

 

He’s certainly proved to be alarming and scary to third parties who did not understand the purpose.

 

 

 

 

[Tackle]

I saw that last week but couldn't share it, crazy as fuck & does us no favours.

I hope he gets locked up, to deter other silly cnuts🤬

[Jez_Armstrong]

should have shown him how cool the LMT fires at 3000fps