What Are People Doing for UKARA Nowadays?

[L3wisD]

1 hour ago, gunbod007 said:

1 hour ago, ak2m4 said:

So all you had to do is upload a picture of a photo ID, upload a picture of you in a costume, and pay your £20 ?

Yep exactly

 

But... Did you get any email from an actual insurance underwriter?

 

If for example a police officer asks to see your defence to check it's validity, without confirmation from insurance underwriters, it's the equivalent to saying you paid £20 for some bloke at the site to vouch for you.

[gunbod007]

8 minutes ago, L3wisD said:

 

But... Did you get any email from an actual insurance underwriter?

 

If for example a police officer asks to see your defence to check it's validity, without confirmation from insurance underwriters, it's the equivalent to saying you paid £20 for some bloke at the site to vouch for you.

No email, but in your profile there's the "Certificate of insurance" and policy from Zurich.

 

As far as I was aware by the writings of the VCRA there's nothing wrong with owning a RIF and you don't need a valid defence to own one. It is the sale and importing of them. 

Again could be wrong but I think the liability is also on the seller. So even if I didn't have insurance docs I think a police officer searching my home wouldn't have any grounds to ask for my defence.

 

Could totalllllly be wrong about this but that has always been my reading of the law.

 

[SSPKali]

43 minutes ago, gunbod007 said:

No email, but in your profile there's the "Certificate of insurance" and policy from Zurich.

 

As far as I was aware by the writings of the VCRA there's nothing wrong with owning a RIF and you don't need a valid defence to own one. It is the sale and importing of them. 

Again could be wrong but I think the liability is also on the seller. So even if I didn't have insurance docs I think a police officer searching my home wouldn't have any grounds to ask for my defence.

 

Could totalllllly be wrong about this but that has always been my reading of the law.

 

That is my understanding too, it is a way of retailers covering their a**. A players "defence" if ever asked by the police would likely be site booking emails / pictures from game days. 

[gunbod007]

I can actually add some weight to this.

I had police ask if they could speak to me. Because someone I used to associate with, who had seen the RIFs in my home had informed them that I had some kind of firearm. Two non armed police officers came to my door, no warrant, and politely explained and asked if they could see said firearm. Upon discovering it was a RIF they chuckled, had no further questions, didn't ask for a defence and simply left.

[Speedbird_666]

1 hour ago, AlphaBear said:

Anyway,  UKARA is there for a reason. It’s our way of self regulation to a degree. Otherwise we will end up like Australia and running around with Gel Blasters. It just takes one person to act like an idiot and bring our hobby into disrepute. 

 

UKARA is there to support the retailers. And only the retailers.

 

I think the situation is somewhat different in the UK compared to Australia. We are allowed to own devices that can fire projectiles at relatively safe speeds (say, compared to airguns), it's the realistic shape and colour that causes the issue. If RIFs are banned, then Airsoft could continue with Nerf shaped/coloured guns as a hobby. Many would hate it and sack it off, but the basic gameplay concept could continue.

[gunbod007]

14 minutes ago, Speedbird_666 said:

 

UKARA is there to support the retailers. And only the retailers.

 

I think the situation is somewhat different in the UK compared to Australia. We are allowed to own devices that can fire projectiles at relatively safe speeds (say, compared to airguns), it's the realistic shape and colour that causes the issue. If RIFs are banned, then Airsoft could continue with Nerf shaped/coloured guns as a hobby. Many would hate it and sack it off, but the basic gameplay concept could continue.

100% The law is actually written in a way that benefits players a lot I think. It is the retailer who just has to make some effort to prove it was sold to someone with a valid excuse/defence from the VCRA. 

 

It could have been way harsher and said to simple own a RIF you must be registered or licensed.

Back to the OP for a sec, I think your best forms of "Valid defence" that you can get easily right now with lockdown is probably going to be

 

1: Just Cos 

2: Sportmans association.

 

 

I think sportsman's is more wild accepted but don't quote me on that and it is more expensive.

 

I have Just Cos. Have only been declined by one retailer who doesn't even accept sales through their website and Facebook only...

[AlphaBear]

54 minutes ago, Speedbird_666 said:

 

UKARA is there to support the retailers. And only the retailers.

 

I think the situation is somewhat different in the UK compared to Australia. We are allowed to own devices that can fire projectiles at relatively safe speeds (say, compared to airguns), it's the realistic shape and colour that causes the issue. If RIFs are banned, then Airsoft could continue with Nerf shaped/coloured guns as a hobby. Many would hate it and sack it off, but the basic gameplay concept could continue.

Hey speedy, let's hope it never comes to that! Nerfs!!! 

 

Upon reflection you're probably right about UKARA being a retailer benefit scheme in one sense of the word... but as a hobby we do self regulate which is inadvertently enforced by the sites we play at and then indirectly by the sensible actions we take as players... But going back to the topic of what to do for UKARA these days, if one is a regular player at a site I can't see why the site won't renew you... we are in exceptional times after all.... For new players I acknowledge it's a different kettle of fish. No one likes a two tone lets face it. But it's a necessity and the framework is there for a reason, whether you agree or not. Ideally the news guys have to get their three games in when airsoft starts up again just like we all had to do....  That is only fair and that's how it should be..... but you know what human nature doesn't work that way does it? 

53 minutes ago, gunbod007 said:

100% The law is actually written in a way that benefits players a lot I think. It is the retailer who just has to make some effort to prove it was sold to someone with a valid excuse/defence from the VCRA. 

 

It could have been way harsher and said to simple own a RIF you must be registered or licensed.

Back to the OP for a sec, I think your best forms of "Valid defence" that you can get easily right now with lockdown is probably going to be

 

1: Just Cos 

2: Sportmans association.

 

 

I think sportsman's is more wild accepted but don't quote me on that and it is more expensive.

 

I have Just Cos. Have only been declined by one retailer who doesn't even accept sales through their website and Facebook only...

 

You have a Spider man costume don't you? Own up! Go on..... #busted 😂

[Dogsbody100]

I was tempted by this just cos thing but on reflection I’m going to hold off and do the UKARA thing when it’s all back to normal(ish) again. 
 

Can’t use the gun at all so what’s the rush?

 

That and I just don’t want any way for trouble to find me when it comes to guns of any kind.

[Speedbird_666]

54 minutes ago, AlphaBear said:

No one likes a two tone lets face it. But it's a necessity and the framework is there for a reason, whether you agree or not. Ideally the news guys have to get their three games in when airsoft starts up again just like we all had to do....  That is only fair and that's how it should be..... but you know what human nature doesn't work that way does it?

 

I agree with you.

 

But playing devils advocate - I can see why retailers are suddenly opening up their 'Acceptable Defenses', even if said defenses are wafer thin compared to UKARA and the 3 game rule.

 

We are currently in a time where it will be (for the next few months at least) impossible for new, or *some* existing players to gain or renew their UKARA-based defense. Retailers probably realise that with less 'new blood' UKARA-registered players and fewer existing renewed players, that their big ticket sales will take a slump at some point, soon - if not already**

 

In combination with supply/shipping issues from Asia, Brexit and Covid-19, they are probably thinking 'let's widen the nets as far as we can get away with' to capture as many sales as possible, even from those with a questionable 'defense'.

 

It's not for me to judge the ethics and legality of what they are doing, but being 'fair' to existing UKARA-registered players is most likely the least of their priorities ATM.

 

** I should think that sales boomed during Lockdowns last year, but look at the special offer sales that some of the retailers had to do after Xmas - some of the RIF prices must of been waaay under trade price.

 

[AlphaBear]

15 minutes ago, Speedbird_666 said:

 

I agree with you.

 

But playing devils advocate - I can see why retailers are suddenly opening up their 'Acceptable Defenses', even if said defenses are wafer thin compared to UKARA and the 3 game rule.

 

We are currently in a time where it will be (for the next few months at least) impossible for new, or *some* existing players to gain or renew their UKARA-based defense. Retailers probably realise that with less 'new blood' UKARA-registered players and fewer existing renewed players, that their big ticket sales will take a slump at some point, soon - if not already**

 

In combination with supply/shipping issues from Asia, Brexit and Covid-19, they are probably thinking 'let's widen the nets as far as we can get away with' to capture as many sales as possible, even from those with a questionable 'defense'.

 

It's not for me to judge the ethics and legality of what they are doing, but being 'fair' to existing UKARA-registered players is most likely the least of their priorities ATM.

 

** I should think that sales boomed during Lockdowns last year, but look at the special offer sales that some of the retailers had to do after Xmas - some of the RIF prices must of been waaay under trade price.

 

Words of wisdom and logic there matey. 
 

Tell you one thing that wasn’t reduced. TM recoils. Not a sausage. In fact it seems prices crept up a wee bit unless it was a 416c but they just look pants (opens flood gates). 😂

[Speedbird_666]

12 minutes ago, AlphaBear said:

Tell you one thing that wasn’t reduced. TM recoils. Not a sausage.

 

Well, you wouldn't want the Riffraff being able to join the hallowed TM Master Race now, would you? 😜

 

 

[gunbod007]

1 hour ago, Dogsbody100 said:

I was tempted by this just cos thing but on reflection I’m going to hold off and do the UKARA thing when it’s all back to normal(ish) again. 
 

Can’t use the gun at all so what’s the rush?

 

That and I just don’t want any way for trouble to find me when it comes to guns of any kind.

I have used it and the liability is all on the seller. You aren't at risk

[Tommikka]

It is likely that retailers have widened the 'defences' they will accept to work around the problems under Covid.

 

There could be a get out clause for retailers if they accept Cosplay insurance - they could establish that they reasonably checked the buyer has insurance via membership, and reasonably assumed their are a valid cosplayer.

If a person buys Cosplay insurance just for the easy purchase of documentation then a retailer that got caught out could push back the blame to the buyer for fraud.

 

 

For Cosplay, a 'professional/celebrity' can qualify under VCRA with the theatrical defence, and arguably an organised CosPlay society could.

Its a stretch to claim the reenactment defence for a  Cosplay society:

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/the-violent-crime-reduction-act-2006-commencement-no-3-order-2007-firearms-measures

The regulations also specify the persons who can claim the defence for historical re-enactment. This is restricted to those organising or taking part in re-enactment activities for which third party liability insurance is held.

 

Its laughable that the two ComiCons (Glasgow Comicon & Capital Comicon) that JustCos promote ban RIFs in their CosPlay rules

 

 

https://showmastersevents.com/index.php/cosplay-guidelines

(Assuming that their dead link for Glasgow Comicon is Showmasters Glasgow Comicon rather than a now defunct different Comicon)

Not Allowed

• Firearms
• Realistic Replica Firearms

Allowed

• Non realistic weapons
• Replica firearms with a red/orange tip
  The tip must be clear and visible from a distance

 

 

https://www.capitalscificon.co.uk/cosplay-contest.html

1. No functional weaponry can be used as a prop. (This includes and not limited to BB guns/paintball guns/knives/katanas/nerf guns/daggers etc)
2. All prop guns must have the barrel covered with bright tape or a plastic cap.

(Arguably they both allow for a RIF and adding the tip as the American orange tip is voided under the VCRAs >50% requirement)

You would need to disable an airsoft RIF and add a tip or tape to qualify.

 

A Cosplay society might not organise its own group insurance and require members to use JustCos, but then only individuals would be insured and not as a group/society.  (Unless JustCos insurance covers that, but the information isn't available without first signing up and potentially discovering the insurance is unsuitbable for your needs.)

 

 

 

 

The only thing JustCos show on the website claiming they insure for is if you scare someone:

https://www.just-cos.co.uk

Just-Cos is a membership based insurance policy. We approached them with a view to covering CosPlayers with Public Liability insurance in their right as a re-enactor to wear and carry costume articles that may prove alarming or ‘scary’ to third parties who may not understand our purpose. This policy particularly covers the right to carry imitation weaponry that could otherwise be mistaken as real or mistakenly reported as an offensive weapon.

 

Good luck with getting an insurance underwriter to pay out because you were a dick on the way to Comicon and scared the general public - and the prosecution for having it in public view.

 

 

Whereas genuine reenactment insurance covers the reality of personal and public liability:

 

 

https://www.sportscoverdirect.com/insurance/re-enactment-insurance/

 

The attraction to re-enactment is the ability to recreate historical scenes, battles and the living environment of our ancestors. Many re-enactments take place as close to the original battlefield or site to increase the authenticity. Due to the realistic nature of the combats, many are open to the public to watch and increases the appeal in taking part. Although most of the combat used is not realistic in the sense of causing damage or using practices which are aimed in hurting your opponent, the risk of an injury or accident occurring is still present. Taking out personal insurance before getting involved in re-enactment is recommended to ensure you are protected.

[Armo1000]

People pay for UKARA yearly?! Lol what? 

 

I never payed for UKARA and my local site updates it whenever i ask. 

[Speedbird_666]

9 minutes ago, Armo1000 said:

People pay for UKARA yearly?! Lol what? 

 

I never payed for UKARA and my local site updates it whenever i ask. 

 

Technically, you don't pay for UKARA. You pay your site's membership fee. But some sites add an 'Admin' charge for updating the database for you.

 

I pay £13 for yearly membership to GZ and that's it. Membership also drops the price by £5 per game day, so you recoup the money after three visits.

[Armo1000]

10 minutes ago, Speedbird_666 said:

 

Technically, you don't pay for UKARA. You pay your site's membership fee. But some sites add an 'Admin' charge for updating the database for you.

 

I pay £13 for yearly membership to GZ and that's it. Membership also drops the price by £5 per game day, so you recoup the money after three visits.

 

I must be lucky then because our regular place Tech Brigade never asked or asks for any money besides the walk on fee.

[Jaylordofwaargh]

What has always been the flaw in UKARA (from a players perspective) is the 3 game (at same site) rule, as it is often the requirement of sites that sign you up as a member then add you to the UKARA list.

When we can play again I want to go to ALL the sites! Sure I may want to go back to the first one, however going to lots of local sites is supporting many business. 

I also want to add to the collection - two tone is something I may just have to suck up, but there is the extra cost as well. Some retailers are charing £15 for the work (admittedly some are sticking a token £1 or doing it for free) which may not sound like much but is an extra I would rather spend on travel or go towards a game day. 

 

Personally this means I will have to try an UKARA alternate (and i'll add my research and outcomes to that older thread) or stick to playing 1 site over the summer (if we can go play) or maybe as mentioned above make take evidence to a retailer (bookings and photos of games)....

 

Would I still airsoft if we had to use nerf! styled if's - yes -

would I play less woodland - not I don't exactly sneak in my play style....

My 2p

[DRay]

39 minutes ago, Jaylordofwaargh said:

What has always been the flaw in UKARA (from a players perspective) is the 3 game (at same site) rule, as it is often the requirement of sites that sign you up as a member then add you to the UKARA list.

When we can play again I want to go to ALL the sites! Sure I may want to go back to the first one, however going to lots of local sites is supporting many business. 

I also want to add to the collection - two tone is something I may just have to suck up, but there is the extra cost as well. Some retailers are charing £15 for the work (admittedly some are sticking a token £1 or doing it for free) which may not sound like much but is an extra I would rather spend on travel or go towards a game day. 

 

Personally this means I will have to try an UKARA alternate (and i'll add my research and outcomes to that older thread) or stick to playing 1 site over the summer (if we can go play) or maybe as mentioned above make take evidence to a retailer (bookings and photos of games)....

 

Would I still airsoft if we had to use nerf! styled if's - yes -

would I play less woodland - not I don't exactly sneak in my play style....

My 2p

Agree RE: same site three times. Playing at the same site is boring and you just end up learning the map which for me removes most of the challenge. That said, unless you live somewhere with 52 airsoft sites law of averages would suggest you will play the same one three times within the required 12 months. 

[ak2m4]

2 hours ago, Jaylordofwaargh said:

What has always been the flaw in UKARA (from a players perspective) is the 3 game (at same site) rule, as it is often the requirement of sites that sign you up as a member then add you to the UKARA list.

When we can play again I want to go to ALL the sites!

 

Sure it's a big problem, I was chatting to an app developer I used to work with and he was looking into developing an alternative system, not spoke to him for a while but I liked the ideas he was putting forward.  Basically register on website / app, then app on phone with QR code get scanned when you play, when you want to prove your defense you can give out a one-time passcode / URL to view the info.

 

[SSPKali]

1 hour ago, ak2m4 said:

 

Sure it's a big problem, I was chatting to an app developer I used to work with and he was looking into developing an alternative system, not spoke to him for a while but I liked the ideas he was putting forward.  Basically register on website / app, then app on phone with QR code get scanned when you play, when you want to prove your defense you can give out a one-time passcode / URL to view the info.

 

Ooh interesting idea, I guess that makes the GDPR angle easier as you control your data and who (other than the sysadmin) gets to see it.

 

Having a database of personal information linked to gun* ownership isn't a headache I would want! UKARA (from their GDPR statement) seems to want to keep all the data in perpetuity...not sure how legal that is (guess who spent a day doing Data Protection Act training today!)

[Tommikka]

50 minutes ago, SSPKali said:

Ooh interesting idea, I guess that makes the GDPR angle easier as you control your data and who (other than the sysadmin) gets to see it.

 

Having a database of personal information linked to gun* ownership isn't a headache I would want! UKARA (from their GDPR statement) seems to want to keep all the data in perpetuity...not sure how legal that is (guess who spent a day doing Data Protection Act training today!)

I’m not so switched on with GDPR as opposed to older DPA...... but I understand that there isn’t a time limit on data retention, only that the duration is valid (no longer than its required) etc

 

The statement shows their intention to hold beyond expiry, and a reason for doing so.

If it was just a membership list for checking details as of today then expired membership might not be suitable to be kept, but they have covered it by stating that a sale might need to be checked at a later date

 

[ak2m4]

@SSPKali when I last spoke to him he said he put the question to an airsoft group on FB but no one seemed that interested in such a system, all very negative! I did say FB probably not the greatest place to ask the question.  GDPR questions never arose, far more interested in working out the technology side of things.  The one-time URL that would expire is a nice touch and of course the ability to view your own information.

 

Sadly I don't think he's continuing with the idea due to the negativity he experienced, I did recommend he just build a rough working concept and get a single site to trial it.  Maybe it's worth me reaching out to him, be interested to know what others think; constructive ideas etc.

[Guest DrAlexanderTobacco]

26 minutes ago, ak2m4 said:

@SSPKali I did say FB probably not the greatest place to ask the question. 

 

 

Waste of time gauging interest in the first place imo - the way I'd do it would be to just get it working, "minimum viable product" etc. and shop it out to a couple of sites with high crossover close together. It could be a hard sell if the site owners are happy with the extra money/retention that UKARA brings, but I don't know whether there are membership fees for UKARA itself etc.

 

Point being, get it out in the open somehow, get people using it and you'll get people recommending it on FB rather than just hawking it.

 

SSPKali on-point about security as well - needs to be done properly

[Jaylordofwaargh]

8 minutes ago, DrAlexanderTobacco said:

. It could be a hard sell if the site owners are happy with the extra money/retention that UKARA brings, but I don't know whether there are membership fees for UKARA itself etc.

Not just the membership fees (£10 i'm fine with) it is the you must come here FOUR times! Well it does vary, the local sites are between 1-4 visits. The retailer/site relationship is a key factor in trying to sell another system. 

The app looks to work on a BAC style ideal, I would spend the money to be signed up to this - didn't see it on which ever fb group it was on. It can be a cavern of bs. Unaffiliated sites and stores? That could be an avenue.

 

[jsmithski]

On 03/02/2021 at 16:19, AlphaBear said:

 

Anyway,  UKARA is there for a reason. It’s our way of self regulation to a degree. Otherwise we will end up like Australia and running around with Gel Blasters. It just takes one person to act like an idiot and bring our hobby into disrepute. 

There are more countries where there’s no airsoft legislation. Does the UKARA really helps keeping the community safe? Australia is a totally different case, their government is mental.