Would Airsoft be bigger in the UK without ukara?

[Duff]

I don't have a UKARA number and I've bought both new and second hand, two tone and normal. I have 5 rifs now, 2 of which were purchased from retailers. The one that came two tone I stripped the paint and redid myself, looks fine. Second one I just asked a mate to order it for me on his numbers.

 

UKARA is needed by retailer, not you. Sites seem to charge differing amounts to add you to a database, what does it actually cost? I bet nothing. I personally don't like how some sites insist you attend a certain amount of games in a set time to obtain it. Not everyone can play that many games within the time specified.

 

That said I'll probably get mine by end of the year at some point because I'm saving up for a TM Scorpion mod M. I don't see one of those going secondhand anytime soon.

[Tommikka]

16 hours ago, padraigthesniper said:

How so? When was the last time a police officer raided someones house because he built a rif because he like fake guns and call of duty... YOU DONT NEED UKARA FOR A DEFENCE lol UKARA lets shops know you have a DEFENCE easy peasy like. If you skirmish and have 3 photos that can prove that or receipts your a skirmisher. PLUS if you occasionally work on videos you have a another defence of use for media content. The police have got legitimate criminals to deal with rather than Dave down the road who watches too much Spec Ops TV Shows and spends his nights reading up on AEG Gearboxes lol F**k all this bulls**t we need better parents and a better culture where kids arent allowed or dont want to be idiots with toy guns and then we dont need to baby sit idiots with laws.

Not getting caught does not mean it’s legal.

 

A VCRA defence is required for manufacture, which could be assembly or repainting a two tone and modifying to RIF

 

I’m not aware of any prosecutions for non compliant sales either.

 

However you are correct that UKARA is not required as a defence, it’s just one recognises method of showing the airsofter defence

 

Occasional video making is not a defence.

 

 

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/38/section/37

 

Those purposes are—

(a)the purposes of a museum or gallery;

(b)the purposes of theatrical performances and of rehearsals for such performances;

(c)the production of films (within the meaning of Part 1 of the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988 (c. 48)_see section 5B of that Act);

(d)the production of television programmes (within the meaning of the Communications Act 2003 (c. 21)_see section 405(1) of that Act);

(e)the organisation and holding of historical re-enactments organised and held by persons specified or described for the purposes of this section by regulations made by the Secretary of State;

(f)the purposes of functions that a person has in his capacity as a person in the service of Her Majesty.

 

(Note that airsoft skirmishing is not a defence under the primary legislation but the Secretary of State can make other provisions and did so for airsoft)

 

The Home Office are quite keen on paying attention to people claiming defences for film work, especially following a black market arms dealer claiming to work on films and using the secrecy behind the Bond franchise for the lack of his ability to justify his claims

[Nick G]

7 hours ago, Duff said:

 

UKARA is needed by retailer, not you. Sites seem to charge differing amounts to add you to a database, what does it actually cost? I bet nothing. I personally don't like how some sites insist you attend a certain amount of games in a set time to obtain it. Not everyone can play that many games within the time specified.

 

 

That's interesting I thought the 3 games in not less than 2 months thing was standard. Are some sites insisting on more games ?

[Gtech]

5 minutes ago, Nick G said:

That's interesting I thought the 3 games in not less than 2 months thing was standard. Are some sites insisting on more games ?

 

The Home Office set out a minimum of 3 games in OVER 2 months. That's in the VCRA.

 

UKARA set the standard that it's 3 games at a single site.

 

7 hours ago, Duff said:

I don't have a UKARA number and I've bought both new and second hand, two tone and normal. I have 5 rifs now, 2 of which were purchased from retailers. The one that came two tone I stripped the paint and redid myself, looks fine. Second one I just asked a mate to order it for me on his numbers.

 

UKARA is needed by retailer, not you. Sites seem to charge differing amounts to add you to a database, what does it actually cost? I bet nothing. I personally don't like how some sites insist you attend a certain amount of games in a set time to obtain it. Not everyone can play that many games within the time specified.

  

That said I'll probably get mine by end of the year at some point because I'm saving up for a TM Scorpion mod M. I don't see one of those going secondhand anytime soon.

 

@Duff, sorry to be boring here...BUT.

 

Technically stripping the paint without a defence may falls under the VCRA as you're converting a IF into a RIF. Remember it's still illegal, however you won't have a defence against prosecution.

 

Having someone else order the RIF, means they're selling it to you (since money exchanged hands) to someone who doesn't have a defence. The law doesn't set precedence whether this is brand new or second hand. It's still a sale.

 

Sites have free membership to UKARA, but it's still their time - So, essentially you're paying an admin fee.

 

In terms of sites insisting you attend a certain amount of games, the law requires 3 games in more than 2 months (and less than a year). This makes you a 'regular attending player', and less likely to be buying the RIF for anything beyond airsoft.

 

UKARA set out the requirement that it must be at the same site, and that the site must have proper liability business insurance for airsoft skirmishing.

 

[proffrink]

You're not being boring. There are still a lot of people who clearly don't know the basics!

[Nick G]

34 minutes ago, Gtech said:

 

The Home Office set out a minimum of 3 games in OVER 2 months. That's in the VCRA.

That's what I thought.

 

UKARA set out the requirement that it must be at the same site, and that the site must have proper liability business insurance for airsoft skirmishing.

 

This seems sensible 

[Gtech]

15 minutes ago, Nick G said:

This seems sensible 

 

Originally it was over 6 months (10games if I recall), so yes - we got a better deal.

 

I don't like the fact it's at the same location, and it's something I'm working on in private - but that's for another time on another thread.

[Adolf Hamster]

12 minutes ago, Gtech said:

 

Originally it was over 6 months (10games if I recall), so yes - we got a better deal.

 

I don't like the fact it's at the same location, and it's something I'm working on in private - but that's for another time on another thread.

 

i guess the same location thing is just a practical matter of how are different unaffiliated sites going to track a player going to different places.

 

it would have made more sense to have the ukara as a system where each person gets logged for every site attendance, that way we'd have a database of just how many active players there are in the uk.

[Tommikka]

13 minutes ago, Gtech said:

 

Originally it was over 6 months (10games if I recall), so yes - we got a better deal.

 

I don't like the fact it's at the same location, and it's something I'm working on in private - but that's for another time on another thread.

It doesn’t absolutely have to be on the same site, UKARA recognised Southampton Airsoft Society and permitted them to track members attendance across events hosted by the society  on multiple sites 

[Gtech]

10 minutes ago, Tommikka said:

It doesn’t absolutely have to be on the same site, UKARA recognised Southampton Airsoft Society and permitted them to track members attendance across events hosted by the society  on multiple sites 

 

I presume you have insurance as a society? Have you got your own ID number, sounds like they've set you up as a site owner?

 

10 minutes ago, Adolf Hamster said:

it would have made more sense to have the ukara as a system where each person gets logged for every site attendance, that way we'd have a database of just how many active players there are in the uk.

 

+10 points to the man with the German Officer cap! 😘

 

Considering they rebuilt the system in August-October last year, it's crazy to see it follow the same system just on a updated but equally shit codebase 🤣

[Adolf Hamster]

3 minutes ago, Gtech said:

Considering they rebuilt the system in August-October last year, it's crazy to see it follow the same system just on a updated but equally shit codebase 🤣

 

indeed, it does strike me as odd given the amount of techy types you see in this game that they couldn't find somebody to whip up a fancier system.

 

all they'd need is a "game day" form where a site owner can simply jot down the name/age/walk-on status of each player (as some sites already do anyway for their own records) and add it to the record.

 

better yet just issue everyone who wants to join up with ukara with a number and enter that at each site then it'll keep track of you as a player, how many games you've done etc.

 

if we had some proper data on how many skirmishers there are it'd be a great tool for legitimising the sport even more and gathering a bit more public awareness.

[Gtech]

Just now, Adolf Hamster said:

 

indeed, it does strike me as odd given the amount of techy types you see in this game that they couldn't find somebody to whip up a fancier system.

 

all they'd need is a "game day" form where a site owner can simply jot down the name/age/walk-on status of each player (as some sites already do anyway for their own records) and add it to the record.

  

better yet just issue everyone who wants to join up with ukara with a number and enter that at each site then it'll keep track of you as a player, how many games you've done etc.

  

if we had some proper data on how many skirmishers there are it'd be a great tool for legitimising the sport even more and gathering a bit more public awareness.

 

Without derailing this thread, or promoting my own stuff - I'm working on something that I hope helps improves the systems and offers an alternative to UKARA. It's still WIP but it's been very well received when presented to a handful of sites and approved by retailers who have seen it develop over the months.

I'll speak with the admins in the future when I've got stuff to show, but yes - there are better methods that could be used to make the entire process simpler, way quicker and ultimately could provide more options out there. 

 

With that said, this isn't to knock off UKARA - but they have no interest in developing the other aspects I'm working on. We've already had that discussion, they've seen the presentation and had the opportunity (and did) ask questions during the meeting.

[BigStew]

4 minutes ago, Adolf Hamster said:

 

indeed, it does strike me as odd given the amount of techy types you see in this game that they couldn't find somebody to whip up a fancier system.

 

all they'd need is a "game day" form where a site owner can simply jot down the name/age/walk-on status of each player (as some sites already do anyway for their own records) and add it to the record.

 

better yet just issue everyone who wants to join up with ukara with a number and enter that at each site then it'll keep track of you as a player, how many games you've done etc.

 

if we had some proper data on how many skirmishers there are it'd be a great tool for legitimising the sport even more and gathering a bit more public awareness.

That requires cooperation and money. Not exactly in a sites best interest 

[Adolf Hamster]

41 minutes ago, Gtech said:

 

Without derailing this thread, or promoting my own stuff - I'm working on something that I hope helps improves the systems and offers an alternative to UKARA. It's still WIP but it's been very well received when presented to a handful of sites and approved by retailers who have seen it develop over the months.

I'll speak with the admins in the future when I've got stuff to show, but yes - there are better methods that could be used to make the entire process simpler, way quicker and ultimately could provide more options out there. 

 

With that said, this isn't to knock off UKARA - but they have no interest in developing the other aspects I'm working on. We've already had that discussion, they've seen the presentation and had the opportunity (and did) ask questions during the meeting.

 

it's nice to see someone's putting the effort in, i know it's going to have running costs, but split that over all the airsofters in the uk i think we can find a fiver in our back pockets that can go towards letting us spend money on kit.

 

it's the chicken and egg problem- a popular system would be cheap to the end user because of a large user base, but to get there it needs investment.

[ak2m4]

1 hour ago, Gtech said:

Without derailing this thread, or promoting my own stuff - I'm working on something that I hope helps improves the systems and offers an alternative to UKARA. It's still WIP but it's been very well received when presented to a handful of sites and approved by retailers who have seen it develop over the months.

 

Good job.  Whilst UKARA did it's job back in 2007 it just hasn't progressed much further.  I think the sport would have grown further had the numerous sites around the country formed a collective to create their own system where players / playing time could be tracked.   Very interested to see what's coming

[Tommikka]

1 hour ago, Gtech said:

 

I presume you have insurance as a society? Have you got your own ID number, sounds like they've set you up as a site owner?

 

 

Not me, but they did register the society as a site, and they negotiated the position to act as an all encompassing UKARA site to cover all venues attended opposed to their original requirement to have the members play their qualifying games in a single site 

 

As an organiser I have only run airsoft events on an existing site so they do any UKARA / membership work involved 

[Gtech]

12 minutes ago, Tommikka said:

Not me, but they did register the society as a site, and they negotiated the position to act as an all encompassing UKARA site to cover all venues attended opposed to their original requirement to have the members play their qualifying games in a single site 

  

As an organiser I have only run airsoft events on an existing site so they do any UKARA / membership work involved 

 

Yeah, exactly - they register as a site, then confirm events and have the chair of the society sign off on the attendance. It's a club membership essentially, the group would likely have insurance to cover them the same way that reenactment societies do.

 

I've notice UKARA are accepting reenactment societies recently as well, I presume they're in the same situation having issues proving their defence.

 

It's a solution for sure, my concern is how easy it is to falsify - which in turn reveals another loophole and potential lack of responsibility under the VCRA. Of course, it would be the chair of the society who gets the blame - since they've become the auditor in the paper-trail.

[Nick G]

2 hours ago, BigStew said:

That requires cooperation and money. Not exactly in a sites best interest 

And time, hard to see what the benefit is to the site owners TBH.

[BigStew]

52 minutes ago, Gtech said:

 

Yeah, exactly - they register as a site, then confirm events and have the chair of the society sign off on the attendance. It's a club membership essentially, the group would likely have insurance to cover them the same way that reenactment societies do.

 

I've notice UKARA are accepting reenactment societies recently as well, I presume they're in the same situation having issues proving their defence.

 

It's a solution for sure, my concern is how easy it is to falsify - which in turn reveals another loophole and potential lack of responsibility under the VCRA. Of course, it would be the chair of the society who gets the blame - since they've become the auditor in the paper-trail.

Reenactment societies are similar to airsoft sites they need to have public liability insurance to qualify.

[Seven]

I wouldn't necessarily say it stops the hobby growing but its, at least for me, a blocker to playing as much as I would like.

 

I've deliberately not played since my last game so as to space out my 3 games to meet the UKARA requirements and not have to pay extra to hire a weapon I don't want to use, eyepro I don't need and BB's Ill hardly use once I get my own weapon.

So instead of playing 7+ times in the required time period im limiting to 3.

When I finally get my own weapon I'll be at every game day I can drag myself to.

 

I have the itch to play lots but im being held back.

 

Short term problem but still a problem nonetheless.

[Mathias33]

UKARA didn’t stop me from getting into airsoft, I found a site I liked the look of, bought a two tone (I know to some people this heinous and I could’ve rented) and went and played.

[Huxley]

UKARA certainly isn't putting me off playing, and I do appreciate its being there to prevent any kids doing something silly.

It is however holding me from playing more often. I don't want a rental I want my own gun, and I'm feeling a bit left out seeing everyone with lovely RIF's but then we've all had to start at some point.

 

And on the upside I've done nothing save since I started, so am at the point that I can buy pretty much any gun I fancy.

Actually that might make things worse, so much choice.

 

[BigStew]

1 hour ago, Duff said:

Not registered with UKARA, never have been. Honestly don't intend to either. I have played loads, more than enough to qualify for it but I don't see why a random site of my choosing get's to earn a tenner off of registering me on a site that should, in all fairness, be absolutely 100% FREE!

 

Seen this with a few others on forums Not sure why people take it  as a badge of pride to not having UKARA.

It's no where near a perfect system but with out UKARA there would be no airsoft and with number I can import airsoft from anywhere in the world hassle free.

Also why should it be free? People's time is worth something. My local site owner doesn't charge which is very good of him. He still spends most of the the lunch break dealing with UKARA forms. There is the time he has to spend processing them sometimes it's quick but if there is problem it can take hours of back and forth to sort. 

[BigStew]

1 hour ago, E21A said:

I’m sure you can do it yourself 

Possibly but you still need site to verify you. Not 100 percent sure on process but my ukara number is linked to my local site. 

1 hour ago, Duff said:

 

Not a badge of pride at all. Just never got around to it and I've been playing at completely dfifferent sites each month.

 

Not sure why the system isn't automated online with normal verification such as drivers licence or passport. All you're doing is registering into a database so, if for any legal reason your contact details can be attained.

Drivers licence /passport details are held by one governing legitive body. Where as UKARA is a single body but requires input from God knows how many separate organisations.

[Keldon]

46 minutes ago, BigStew said:

Drivers licence /passport details are held by one governing legitive body. Where as UKARA is a single body but requires input from God knows how many separate organisations.

This is the same as diving be it padi/bsac governing body with input from dive schools/clubs and it seems to work fine.