Joule Creep

[Adolf Hamster]

18 minutes ago, Wo1f said:

I’m taking it personally. I’m saying nobody is complaining about the current system and changing it to what I’ve already agreed is a more accurate one poses more issues to fix a problem nobody is asking to be fixed. 

 

So to keep things ‘theoretical’.. new law comes in and now all guns need to be 1.13 joules..

 

you’ve got 120 people lining up to chrono...

 

SCENARIO 1 you're chronoing at the BB weight they’re going to be playing:

You now have to be sure all 120 players are honest about their BB weight and potentially change the chrono settings for the different BB weights of each player. 4 hours later, you’re all ready for the game...

 

SCENARIO 2 you make everyone chrono on a heavy weight BB:

Virtually very single gbbr has failed and they all ask for their walk on fees back. Well set up, high end AEG’s fail and do the same. Little Johnny and his combat machine looks around at an empty site and nobody to shoot. airsoft in the UK takes a massive hit and sites/stores shut down.

 

might be a touch dramatic, but you get my point 😂 

 

you don't need to change the chrono reading every time (although one site i go to just has a bunch of chrono's set to the common bb weights), just have a conversion chart up to consult what the fps should be for a given joule limit and bb weight, it wouldn't even be a particularly complex chart given you're only looking at 1 energy level and there's not that many common bb weights:

 

bb weight	Fps
0.12	450
0.20	349
0.23	325
0.25	312
0.28	295
0.30	285
0.38	253
0.40	247
0.45	233
0.48	225
0.50	221

 

players lying about their bb weight is the same as any other way of cheating the chrono, be it twiddling with the expansion chamber on your gas sniper or knocking the regulator on your hpa up a couple of dozen psi. you keep a stock of bb's on hand in the common weights and if there's any doubt over a particular player then you test them with the site ammo for the weight they claim the same way it's done currently with .2's.

[ImTriggerHappy]

Lots of great ideas but betting most/none have ever worked a chrono on a site. 

 

Doing it by weight would not work as too many people would lie. You would have to weigh their ammo to check their claims. This still wouldn't work though as everybody would come through to chrono with 0.2s then load up with heavier ammo for the game. People will always try and find a way to cheat. 

 

There is also the fact that people wouldn't be happy at losing the hour or two of game time thst this would add to chrono.

 

If you chrono everything on a heavier weight then some people who are genuinely using light ammo would fail. 

 

Personally I think the current system works well enough. While joule creep does exist it is not as hugely common as some people seem to think. Probably less common than people chronoing on 144a then using a high power gas for the game.

[Gtech]

7 hours ago, Wo1f said:

Because you can always use a heavier BB you can’t really go down from a .20. It’s not having it both ways. I can guarantee you that you can take ANY gbbr and put a really heavy BB in it and it will fail your joule limit. So on the basis of what you said, all GBBR’s must be banned from your site.

 

Now if you’d have said a gun fires at say 400 FPS on a .20 so just put a .30 in it then it will be under 350 I would have understood, but that would be cheating in the eyes of a site that measures FPS on a set weight. 

 

I want to point out I understand how and why your sites use joules to measure ‘hotness’ I just prefer how my sites do it, because it means upgrading your gun is more worthwhile and possible engagement distances are further. It works, everyone is happy with it and it’s convenient. While joule readings between all guns on the field will be slightly off, it’s not enough to have ever caused any noticeable negative effect or health and safety issue with the thousands of players that visit. It’s just allowed people who have set up their guns well to get that extra few meters and get the games going quicker. 

 

 

 

Just 2 things here, GBBRs can easily stay within Joule Limits. You use the nozzle or npas and chrono on the weight you're using to ensure you are at the appropriate limit. This means they won't ever be able to go over that joule limit no matter if they drop to a lower weight BB. It's one of the things UKAPU set out to discuss and resolve during the Police & Crime Act.

Secondly, if you get 350fps on .2 but joule creep over 1.3Joules (with a fully-automatic airsoft rif), you are now classed as having a Section 5 Firearm. Possession of a Section 5 Firearm without correct documentation/licence comes with a mandatory 5 year prison sentence. 

I don't care if a site measures in FPS, the law measures you on Joules. Blaming the site if a situation occurred won't help your case.

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/policing-and-crime-bill

[Gtech]

One thing that makes me giggle is the amount of 'now we have to trust the players being truthful about their bb weight'.

Every site I go to already asks your weight when you chrono on FPS. I could use .4s and  just tell them .2s - it's the same situation now, hardly an excuse not to do it accurately.

 

@ImTriggerHappy, my local site in Kent measures in Joules and it's just as fast. They ask the player what weight BB, see the results in FPS and cross-reference it to the Joule Limit for that BB weight. They also have a variety of weights available if the player isn't sure.

 

Section 8 in Scotland only uses Joules and they've been just fine pulling in 150+ each game day. That said, Scotland had this power limit 2 years before it has been legalised in the UK (the Air Weapons and Licensing (Scotland) Act 2015) 

[clumpyedge]

6 hours ago, Adolf Hamster said:

 

any site that uses "x fps at y bb weight" is using joules, even if they don't realise that's what they're doing, hence the point of this discussion that it's possible to get significant gains if this is how it's measured that in real terms amount to an equivalent of what the site's definition of a "hot" gun is if it were to be measured properly.

 

to take sonsofammo's example:

chrono's at 350fps on a .2, for a total of 1.13j, so lets assume the site limit is 350fps on a .2 and this measurement is fine to "pass" the chronograph

now we chuck in some .4's and it's 293fps for a total of 1.6j, a 50% increase, but because he passed the chrono this is fine.

someone else comes along and chrono's 415fps on a .2, well he's just failed the site chrono hasn't he, but it's still 1.6j

 

the energy is the same, the effect on target is the same, and yet one is acceptable and the other is not.

 

now wether or not the 1.6j is deemed acceptable by players being hit is irrelevant, if that's the case then the site can change it's limits to reflect this (by allowing the 400fps gun to run .2's as well as the 293fps gun running .4's). the point is that it's the same thing being acheived only by some creative physics.

 

there's a reason why countries that have laws limiting the acceptable energy to constitute an airsoft gun do so in joules not fps because that's the proper definition of the attribute of a projectile that defines it's ability to cause harm.

 

 

This is by far the best explanation I've read so far while trying to understand jule creep. My only issue is that if someone runs a gun that "chrono's at 350fps on a .2, for a total of 1.13j, so lets assume the site limit is 350fps on a .2 and this measurement is fine to "pass" the chronograph" could you then say well if you "did" put .40's through its a hot gun so you cant use it?

Again everything seems to be on trust, sites are trusting people to keep to their word on what weight bb they will be using to stay in limits, can you imagine a site doing three chrono tests a day on everyone just to try and catch people out that may or may not have put heavier ammo weight in their guns? We do spot checks but you cant get round everyone.

[Sacarathe]

2 hours ago, ImTriggerHappy said:

Personally I think the current system works well enough. While joule creep does exist it is not as hugely common as some people seem to think.

 

On full auto AEGs I completely agree.

[ImTriggerHappy]

1 hour ago, Gtech said:

 

@ImTriggerHappy, my local site in Kent measures in Joules and it's just as fast. They ask the player what weight BB, see the results in FPS and cross-reference it to the Joule Limit for that BB weight. They also have a variety of weights available if the player isn't sure.

 

Section 8 in Scotland only uses Joules and they've been just fine pulling in 150+ each game day. That said, Scotland had this power limit 2 years before it has been legalised in the UK (the Air Weapons and Licensing (Scotland) Act 2015) 

That is fine as long as they tell the truth.

Better if sites use there own bbs as then you know the results are correct.

[proffrink]

The important topic here (if we can cut through pages of people struggling to understand what Joule creep actually is) is whether or not - or even how - a site puts a stop on this. Trigger has the right idea. You need three things to be able to stop Joule creep:

• The most basic thing (and something sites already sort of do) is to start listing their limits in Joules (yes, some put '350ft/s for a .2g BB' - which is the same as muzzle energy - but is confusing for many in the context of the other two points) and talking about limits in Joules at the cronograph as well. Enough of this ft/s shit.
• Cronograph on the weight/heaviest weight that a player intends to use that day and, importantly;
• Weigh the BB they're using to make sure they're telling the truth

The biggest issue is the final point, and something that truthfully I don't see many sites being able to do reliably. I'd go for a spot check (just randomly pick people) but this isn't 100% effective and can piss people off if they keep getting picked. Even if you're picking every 5th player, that allows people to maliciously slip by by picking their place in the queue carefully. That's the reason why I don't see this happening anywhere. My primary concern is people thinking HPA is running hot when in reality a lot of the creep and are left unchecked, but that's secondary I suppose.

 

2 hours ago, clumpyedge said:

 

 

This is by far the best explanation I've read so far while trying to understand jule creep. My only issue is that if someone runs a gun that "chrono's at 350fps on a .2, for a total of 1.13j, so lets assume the site limit is 350fps on a .2 and this measurement is fine to "pass" the chronograph" could you then say well if you "did" put .40's through its a hot gun so you cant use it?

Again everything seems to be on trust, sites are trusting people to keep to their word on what weight bb they will be using to stay in limits, can you imagine a site doing three chrono tests a day on everyone just to try and catch people out that may or may not have put heavier ammo weight in their guns? We do spot checks but you cant get round everyone.

This actually doesn't tell you why Joule creep happens - only explains what the result is, but I digress. We've had so many threads on this that perhaps those who still don't understand the basic physics can go and fish one of those out using the search. Joule creep can easily be explained by just understanding that a gun firing heavier ammo has a higher muzzle energy than one firing lighter ammo (even if the gun is completely stock in both cases). Remember that, and you understand Joule creep. To what extent it happens is academic (AEGs tend to be better with creep whilst GBBRs and sniper rifles are the worst offenders).

 

[clumpyedge]

8 minutes ago, proffrink said:

The important topic here (if we can cut through pages of people struggling to understand what Joule creep actually is) is whether or not - or even how - a site puts a stop on this. Trigger has the right idea. You need three things to be able to stop Joule creep:

• The most basic thing (and something sites already sort of do) is to start listing their limits in Joules (yes, some put '350ft/s for a .2g BB' - which is the same as muzzle energy - but is confusing for many in the context of the other two points) and talking about limits in Joules at the cronograph as well. Enough of this ft/s shit.
• Cronograph on the weight/heaviest weight that a player intends to use that day and, importantly;
• Weigh the BB they're using to make sure they're telling the truth

The biggest issue is the final point, and something that truthfully I don't see many sites being able to do reliably. I'd go for a spot check (just randomly pick people) but this isn't 100% effective and can piss people off if they keep getting picked. Even if you're picking every 5th player, that allows people to maliciously slip by by picking their place in the queue carefully. That's the reason why I don't see this happening anywhere. My primary concern is people thinking HPA is running hot when in reality a lot of the creep and are left unchecked, but that's secondary I suppose.

 

This actually doesn't tell you why Joule creep happens - only explains what the result is, but I digress. We've had so many threads on this that perhaps those who still don't understand the basic physics can go and fish one of those out using the search. Joule creep can easily be explained by just understanding that a gun firing heavier ammo has a higher muzzle energy than one firing lighter ammo (even if the gun is completely stock in both cases). Remember that, and you understand Joule creep. To what extent it happens is academic (AEGs tend to be better with creep whilst GBBRs and sniper rifles are the worst offenders).

 

 

Edited with more info:

 

Apologies, i may have worded that slightly off... what i meant is that it explains the issues i was having.

 

Again though, if the site doesn't have a readily available supply of ALL ammo weights to test peoples guns you are still going on their say so which to me is the biggest safety concern. Not sure how asking a player if you can weigh their BB's will go down and again would be a time constraint on players that already struggle to get to a site on time.

 

How would you go about calibrating the scales to the satisfaction of a player (yes I've had people been that finnicky) its already bad enough when you get a shirty player that is over the limit by our chrono having a pop saying "well it chrono'd fine at home/shop/tech, you need t calibrate your chrono" people inherently get shirty all because they think getting to a site limit means that that is how their gun will perform best not relying on hop rather than FPS. The amount of times I've had the argument that the FPS inst a target, its a limit and that FPS doesn't in fact mean your gun will shoot further.

[proffrink]

Well precisely. I think they'd have to just spot check the odd BB with some scales. Also removes the issue of people having to come along with empty mags to be filled up.

 

The unfortunate truth to all of that is that ultimately someone can just say 'oh yeh I'm using .25s today' and then walk back and pick up a bag of .32s. In the end it'll probably all be for nowt, but it's finding that balance as there will always be a gap that has to be filled by honestly. My main issue is with people unconsciously doing this (particularly GBBR and HPA users) as if they just knew most of them would remedy it at home I'm sure.

[clumpyedge]

I've had people chrono at 520 for exmaple on a .20 when using FPS as the measuring scale (before i knew about jule creep) and they went off and said "im going to change the spring" what we actually caught them doing was just using a heavier weight but telling us it was a .20, anyone that comes to the chrono and shoots over the limit we actually check to see what they are doing when they go back to their bench (not openly but we do watch)

[ImTriggerHappy]

Only way you could ever stamp cheating the chrono out is to have a marshal at regen with a chrono and scales doing random spot checks. Short of that some people will always try and cheat it and catching them is difficult. 

 

Joule creep is no more of an issue than those who change gas or dial on too much hop to chrono. I can drop my fps by nearly 50 on hop alone.

[clumpyedge]

2 minutes ago, proffrink said:

Well precisely. I think they'd have to just spot check the odd BB with some scales. Also removes the issue of people having to come along with empty mags to be filled up.

 

The unfortunate truth to all of that is that ultimately someone can just say 'oh yeh I'm using .25s today' and then walk back and pick up a bag of .32s. In the end it'll probably all be for nowt, but it's finding that balance as there will always be a gap that has to be filled by honestly. My main issue is with people unconsciously doing this (particularly GBBR and HPA users) as if they just knew most of them would remedy it at home I'm sure.

 

This is specifically why I use either cylinders or guns tuned to way less than majority of site limits, technically then I'm covering my arse by doing so am I right in saying that?

[proffrink]

7 minutes ago, ImTriggerHappy said:

Only way you could ever stamp cheating the chrono out is to have a marshal at regen with a chrono and scales doing random spot checks. Short of that some people will always try and cheat it and catching them is difficult. 

 

Joule creep is no more of an issue than those who change gas or dial on too much hop to chrono. I can drop my fps by nearly 50 on hop alone.

Again I think the issue of Joule creep isn't that it's there but more that people don't know it's there because everyone is using ft/s as a measurement. If people knew then - like you and your hop dial - they'd be more cautious when checking at home. In its current state people literally switch to their bottle of .2g BBs when they cronograph because they don't understand that their crono at home has a Joules and weight setting that can be used to make sure your'e not creeping.

 

Heyho.

[Rogerborg]

2 hours ago, Gtech said:

Section 8 in Scotland only uses Joules and they've been just fine

 

Hmm, so they do. https://www.s8airsoft.com/rules/

 

However, they also phrase it in terms of fps x 0.2g BB, even for snipers.  How do they do sniper chronoing?  Site supplied BBs?  What weight?  Or do they trust players regarding BB weight?

[Adolf Hamster]

1 hour ago, proffrink said:

My primary concern is people thinking HPA is running hot when in reality a lot of the creep and are left unchecked, but that's secondary I suppose.

 

i think the argument against hpa is that without tournament locking people it's very easy to stealthily dial your fps right up, which makes it too easy for dishonest players to abuse.

 

of course you can do the same thing with many different guns in different ways, hell even my m4 can be made to shoot at half power simply by stuffing the mag right up to full because the nozzle won't close properly for the first few shots.

 

of course if people are going to be a knob they're going to be a knob, tis just the nature of the sport. best we can do is have vigilant marshalling to catch the people cheating either by game mechanics or running hot (however the running hot is acheived)

[proffrink]

I'm not going to bring up the tired, off-topic story of HPA again but it looks like you've posed my argument for me anyway in the second half of your post

[Adolf Hamster]

6 minutes ago, proffrink said:

I'm not going to bring up the tired, off-topic story of HPA again but it looks like you've posed my argument for me anyway in the second half of your post

 

 

indeed, it's just the scapegoat system to describe people bending the rules, i must say hpa's are pretty popular round here and so far there's only been 1 or 2 i've seen (or more correctly heard) mag dumping people at 70rps. most folks just sit in a bush and use the accuracy to snipe people.

[LightningCh]

So I played at Stormforce today, turns out that although they miss off Joule creep on spring snipers.

Their insurance does not cover gas/co2/hpa running at 350+fps due to joule creep.

They also limit the full auto hpa guns to 320fps to take joule creep into account.

 

And the site owner admitted that they want to do joules, but it was so much hassle when they tried because 200+ people was just too much for their 2 chronoes and conversions on a chart (takes 3 hours to chrono everyone on .2s on a busy day due to laziness from players 😂😂)

 

So yeah, I guess a blanket ban on the 350+ on gas snipers, and a 320 limit for full auto is better than nothing.

Not exactly a solution to the idea, but much more than most sites.

[Sacarathe]

9 hours ago, LightningCh said:

So I played at Stormforce today, turns out that although they miss off Joule creep on spring snipers.

Their insurance does not cover gas/co2/hpa running at 350+fps due to joule creep.

They also limit the full auto hpa guns to 320fps to take joule creep into account.

 

And the site owner admitted that they want to do joules, but it was so much hassle when they tried because 200+ people was just too much for their 2 chronoes and conversions on a chart (takes 3 hours to chrono everyone on .2s on a busy day due to laziness from players 😂😂)

 

So yeah, I guess a blanket ban on the 350+ on gas snipers, and a 320 limit for full auto is better than nothing.

Not exactly a solution to the idea, but much more than most sites.

 

Maybe they should charge more money, more chronographs, less players, win win.

[LightningCh]

50 minutes ago, Sacarathe said:

 

Maybe they should charge more money, more chronographs, less players, win win.

 

Wouldn't be the same experience then tbh. They recently finished paying off the loan from setting up, so now more money will be going into the site (which has already happened, they have updated a couple structures since my last visit).

But in all honesty, im not fussed, its an enjoyable site, 125 v 125 is quite hilarious when you have to defend one single building 😂

[gasman]

My only concern regarding joule creep is it increases the chance of injury to fellow players in particular eye protection that can be damaged or fail against heavyweight BBs.

 

 The legal issue of exceeding sight limits and sight insurance should be every players concern as the law does not accept ignorance as a defense.

 

If the police were to test an airgun shooting the legal 12ft pound they would do so using the heaviest ammo available not the ammo the owner normally used, which is why most air rifles are set around 11ft pounds.

 

[Rogerborg]

1 hour ago, gasman said:

If the police were to test an airgun shooting the legal 12ft pound they would do so using the heaviest ammo available

 

On speculation, or information?

 

It's what I'd do, and I'd test airsoft guns with 0.5g as well.  But what actually happens in practice?

[ImTriggerHappy]

Actually a street bobby as you call them would hand it off to the firearms unit and they do know what they are doing and would test shit.

 

They have some very nice facilities and testing kit.

[gasman]

I second that and they would love to prosecute any firearms act contravention as irresponsible idiots that do not adhere to the limits place our sports at risk that is air-soft ,air rifles, small bore and full bore weapons.

 

America seems the only place idiots can do as they like.