TAG innovation adaptation.

[Okto Eight Milsim]

Cant comment on other sites or their insurers.

 

Filmsim who operate our games have a set of specific rules for their use. We dont allow the powder ones or the impact detonation ones.

 

 

Nice. Are you able to clarify any of the 'insurance problems' other sites have been quoting when it comes to using them? I assume you've not run into this same issue.

[proffrink]

Makes sense, thanks.

 

 

And that's different from throwing a MK5 at someone how?

Do I need to answer that?

[Lozart]

Do I need to answer that?

 

Actually - yes.

 

Let's say you fire a pyro at someone from a launcher. You hit someone a reasonable distance away and it goes off with the force of a MK5. You then throw an actual MK5 at someone again at a sensible distance and it just happens to go off when it reaches them. They both have the same explosive force and are both in a similar proximity to the target. So tell me - what is the difference in terms of risk of personal injury?

[Guest PT247]

The site I play at also has an MED when using these, treated like a sniper but also not allowed to intentionally aim at an individual even from afar and also have to call out RPG to give folk a heads up they are coming in. I got a mate to shoot me in the belly at under 10m, it felt like a hard paintball.

[TheGrover]

It comes down to the one in a million chance of this high energy projectile hitting somewhere fragile. Like your face. It might be an accident, it if someone takes a direct hit to the face at less than 10m, will it break their eye pro? Could it bust a nose open? Could someone be about to hose them down with bbs as their eye pro falls to pieces?

 

In a perfect world, an MED and call out works a treat. But the danger with these (in the eyes of an insurer at least, I've never seen or been hit by one) is the same reason people aren't allowed to lob reusable pyro around. Yes, people signed a waiver to be shot at and have mk5s lobbed at them, but nobody signs a waiver to allow high energy projectiles like a BFG or a TAG grenade.

 

With a proper investigation into how much damage one of these could do in a worst-case scenario (assuming that they are actually safe to fire at someone at close range), you could probably convince most insurers that they are safe and justified to use.

[proffrink]

 

Actually - yes.

 

Let's say you fire a pyro at someone from a launcher. You hit someone a reasonable distance away and it goes off with the force of a MK5. You then throw an actual MK5 at someone again at a sensible distance and it just happens to go off when it reaches them. They both have the same explosive force and are both in a similar proximity to the target. So tell me - what is the difference in terms of risk of personal injury?

Because a TAG round is a launched explosive missile that's actually illegal in the hands of your average joe, not classified as your regular firework and a grenade is a pyrotechnic (that is governed under the same laws as fireworks) and is legal. I'm not saying that makes sense, but that's how it is to insurers. This shouldn't need explaining - it's obvious from an insurers point of view and that's my point.

 

Edit for further reading

There was a thread on Arnies that a few people who frequent this forum will remember too. As far as I'm concerned, I think the whole launched projectiles things needs clarification. As it stands, explosive projectiles like TAG are one headline away from having serious consequences on the game we all love. Imagine a 14 year old getting hit by one and having even the slightest burns on their face - that would be going straight to the Daily Mail.

 

tl;dr Kinetic or 'marker' ones are fine, but the explosive ones you see advertised in videos are most certainly not.

 

I love the concept (never seen one used outside of YouTube videos), but we need to tread carefully.

[Lozart]

I get the insurance viewpoint and the whole section 5 spin stabilised explosive thing, but are they ACTUALLY any more capable of causing harm than a MK5 to the face? If knocking peoples eyepro off is the problem then that's no different than the kinetic rounds or even the marker rounds which everybody seems far happier about. An explosive going off in proximity to your face is a bad thing regardless of how it gets there.

[jcheeseright]

100% Knickers in a twist going on here.

 

People have been launching TLSFX 2-stage mortar pyro (effectively a Mk9 bang used to fling an Mk7 out of a tube) for years, I've seen them used in an M320 to take out rooms full of people from pretty impressive distances. This is absolutely no different in terms of technicality, except that the tag rounds aren't a 100g lump of flaming cardboard coming at you!

 

As for 'high energy projectile'.... get a grip, it's 24J because of it's mass and velocity at launch; the actual impact energy would be considerably less at even 10' away and the material they're made of is so insubstantial they're less likely to hurt you than a snowball. A squash ball is genuinely more dangerous, everyone ban squash courts, the daily mail will go nuts!!!!

[proffrink]

You're right, and no one has their knickers in a twist - this is a straight up debate. We all operate slightly in a grey area in airsoft anyway and I don't think we should do anything to push that. It's nice for you to drag this down to a bit of personal level that these forums healthily tend to avoid though. I would like to state again that I see no harm in these being used if the law is updated, but right now they're at best unclassified and at worst highly illegal. Again, civil discourse man - get on board; there needs to be two sides or we're just circlejerking.

 

The real issue is the laws around fin stabilisation as Lozart says - there are plenty of mortar rounds that use fin stabilisation and have generally been fine, but this doesn't mean they're protected - the TAG rounds don't use this but that doesn't truly explain why insurers don't go for them. Again, the law needs a serious update on this because these TAG rounds have the ability to be far more prevalent than the higher tech pyros we see at the larger sites and events where they're being properly moderated and operated by people who know what they're doing. As noted in that thread, most retailers aren't even stocking the pyrotechnic rounds anymore because of legal concerns around 'CE' markings - the explosive ones shouldn't even be in the EU by all accounts as of two years ago. It's quite possible that has now changed.

 

I just worry things could get a little out of control on the pyrotechnic front as people bring more and more money into airsoft every year. Because that's the real limiting factor right now and why you don't see these things everywhere - they're expensive to run. This is a serious topic and not one that's brought up enough.

[Ian_Gere]

I've said it before and no doubt i'll say it again - many of the types of eyepro in common use on airsoft sites every weekend are inappropriate for the risk of BB's to the face, let alone MK5's, MK9's, TLSFX mortar rounds, or TAG rounds. It's only that full auto hits to the face a pretty rare that has saved us from a regular slew of superficial eye damage and, no doubt, the final blinding that sees insurance premiums go through the fucking roof. Is it really beyond the ken of the likes of UKARA, in conjunction with one or more major UK sports insurer, to commission a report on safety equipment in airsoft (and gonads knows they do bugger all else that is actually of any use to the sport or towards Reducing Violent Crime so maybe it's about time they took some of the fees sites and shops have to pay and did something sensible for a change)? Perhaps then, since TAG rounds are not fin stabilised A} we can stop bringing that old chestnut up, and B} since legitimate safety concerns about TAGs, which for some unknown reason always seem to be accompanied by said old chestnut, are often dismissed somewhat bluntly by people who are by now no doubt quite irritated by being asked to take a pointless game of conkers seriously, the subject can be addressed with an agenda of finding a set of standards for gear which sites can easily police, players can purchase without a mortgage, and in which insurers can be confident, rather than the all to common tendency of people to look at a problem for which they can see no easy solution and cry ban.

 

The absolute last thing we need is any more legislation or any Govt. sponsored guidelines/clarification of existing legislation on what we can/can't throw/shoot at each other. Legislation creep is a real phenomenon. If you want MK5's and BFG's banned, ask a bunch of MP's to look into TAGs...

Edited September 27, 2015 by Ian_Gere
on not a

[proffrink]

I agree, and that is basically my exact issue with the status quo regarding pyros though: There're very few safety measures in place and just because someone hasn't been seriously hurt so far and kicked up a big fuss doesn't mean they won't.

 

As you say, it'll only take one insurer to get cold feet and the rest will follow suit.

[Bencupra]

I really fancy an M203 so I can use these. Someone had some on Sunday they are awesome.

[Sacarathe]

[delete]

[Bencupra]

It is it just takes a rifled shell for the reapers.

[MrMcG]

To fire the tag rounds you need the tag adaptor which goes inside the launcher and which you fill with gas, the rifled reaper rounds slide into the adaptor which sits inside the launcher

[jcheeseright]

That's what he said....

 

The M203 would be for him to put the shell in, so he can fire it!

[Okto Eight Milsim]

We use them a lot. Make sure your site is happy with them before you invest. Not all sites accept them.

[MrMcG]

That's what he said....

 

The M203 would be for him to put the shell in, so he can fire it!

I wasn't sure if he knew that the tag adaptor is required you can't just use the shells on their own

[Bencupra]

I knew about the adapter mate watched the vids on you tube. Been speaking to friends in the us and they said you need the long m203 to fit the adapter. I'd like the launcher with the rotating barrels they look awesome but when you think you need about 6 adapters at £50 each plus the launcher it soon starts mounting up so I'll get a long m203 for now lol.

[proffrink]

Also you're now stuck using an M23 as your primary - those things are not small.

[Bencupra]

Yeah I kmow what you're saying mate can't exactly strap it to you're back lol.

[Guest PT247]

I love TAG rounds, am currently not running any as they are an expensive treat, well worth having 10+ to spunk in a day for special occasions though! :-)

[Lozart]

Yeah I kmow what you're saying mate can't exactly strap it to you're back lol.

 

Of course you can. Man up.

[proffrink]

And look like the Hunchback of Notre Dame; the ICS M32 is hella-wide.

[Lozart]

And look like the Hunchback of Notre Dame; the ICS M32 is hella-wide.

 

It's not THAT big. My buddy has one on a sling and uses an M4 as his main. I'm not saying it isn't....challenging but it's certainly do-able.