TAG Grenade Launchers & 40/38mm Launchers/Projectiles Discussion.

[Ian_Gere]

In another thread it came to my attention that Airsoft World are now carrying the TAG launcher system, which looks like this if you are not familiar:

 

They're not new, but until recently were not available from UK retailers. Indeed there is some question over their legality under the letter of British law, since here it definitely is illegal to fire explosive projectiles out of/with anything. I'm hoping that these fall outside what the law defines as 'explosive' for the purposes of the law and perhaps someone can enlighten us on that score. In any case the law is intended to prevent dickheadery on a monumental scale, not to stop us adding a much needed dimension to airsoft, accurate indirect fire, or to stop people having a laugh with well designed safe equipment. There is a vid somewhere of someone allowing himself to be shot with this system, but I cannot find it. If someone can help me out there, I'd appreciate it. Anyway, it shows that the system is safe for our purposes.

 

I'm definitely going to get some and sooner rather than later, just in case some jobsworth takes it upon him/herself to end the fun. However the question arises, from what to launch them? Most of my loadouts are Soviet/Russian so my first thought was the D-Boys GP-25 underslung noob tube for AK's:

...but apparently it makes an AK uncomfortably front heavy

and they take a funky shell, like a Russian VOG grenade:

...so the TAG may not even fit.

There is a steel GP-30 made by a company called Danmu which does fire any 40mm MOSCARTs, but it was £80 shipped last time I looked, which did not compare favourably with prices for the D-Boys effort, however since taiwangun.com have discontinued free shipping except on mahoosive orders, it starting to look less outrageous... especially considering what you get for the money.

 

Nonetheless, if there is one thing I hate it's front heavy guns - they make my left arm ache within 10mins. So that leaves stand alone launchers, unless I was to add weight inside the stock of my AK-74. The latter is a viable possibility because I've rewired her to carry her battery under her top cover, like all my other AK's, but I'm interested to see what you recommend also.

 

Now would seem to be a good time to discuss what else you can launch from tubes also, such as Enola Gay smoke bombs and, has anyone ever fired a thermobaric 'nade like this (by just jamming it into a 203 in front of a 40mm 'nade gassed up but without BB's)?

[Saber6-1]

As an M203 user, I have used foam balls as projectiles before. It was more or less an honor system, which did suck. If the ball hit in the proximity, you were deemed KIA or WIA. We also had some refs on hand, but more often than not they were absent.

 

I was reading on the TAG system and its definitely on my list to get, but as you stated, perhaps not quite legal here. I might have to wait til I get back Stateside to get. I like the fact that it can carry "flashbang" type of rounds as well as smoke. It can make for a very versatile platform in the right fire team.

[airsoftwarrior147]

Saber how did you propell the balls? As the gas goes inside a grenade

[Happy]

Still really want one, but until their legality is confirmed I'm staying well clear of buying one

[TacMaster]

Saber how did you propell the balls? As the gas goes inside a grenade

 

There are MOSCARTS available which are hollow and can fit 1 or 2 small foam balls in. Alternatively he could've gassed an empty shell up and stuck the balls down the launcher's tube and fired it.

[Baz JJ]

Are Airsoft World actually delivering these ?

 

We have looked into using them in our milsims but there are legal issues about how they are classified so its on hold at the moment

[Lowlander]

While we are dubious to there exact legality. We has a couple of these on site to evaluate for safety, we tested both the chalk marking and timed pyros, both are very light, about the weight of a squash ball, The foam they are made from is has a similar strength and density to expanding foam fillers and forms small and safe fragments upon detonation with no sharp edges like some other polymer pyro we have tested. the pyrotecnic round produce a nice bang and a bright flash, and can be lauched about 150ft with green gas.

[Ian_Gere]

Just found out i've been overcharged £126 for gas'n'leccy... 3 guesses what that will be going on

[Chock]

These will almost certainly be illegal in the UK. There are a few section in various Acts which could pertain to these things, but rather than quote them all, here's just one from the Home Office Guide to Firearms licensing:

Those weapons and ammunition, which are prohibited, consist of:

any cartridge with a bullet designed to explode on or immediately before impact, any ammunition containing or designed or adapted to contain any such noxious thing as is mentioned in (viii) above and, if capable of being used with a firearm of any description, any grenade, bomb or other like missile, or rocket or shell designed to explode as aforesaid

[Airsoft-Ed]

George has bought a couple of sets of the timed explosive ones, Ian. He bought a 203 specifically for them, we've used them at Skirmish and at CQB.

I've also seen them used in videos at a Brit Tac event at Copehill, so there doesn't seem to be any issues buying and using them.

[Ian_Gere]

 

These will almost certainly be illegal in the UK. There are a few section in various Acts which could pertain to these things, but rather than quote them all, here's just one from the Home Office Guide to Firearms licensing:

Those weapons and ammunition, which are prohibited, consist of:

any cartridge with a bullet designed to explode on or immediately before impact, any ammunition containing or designed or adapted to contain any such noxious thing as is mentioned in (viii) above and, if capable of being used with a firearm of any description, any grenade, bomb or other like missile, or rocket or shell designed to explode as aforesaid

 

Right, well i think that what those of us who have been worrying about this have done once again is mis-conflate our toys with firearms, because in no way are these "cartridge", "bullet", or "capable of being used with a firearm". So happy days

[NH Shooter]

If you look at their site, they have 3 distinct rounds. Smoke, flash and marker... The marker versions are easily available in the UK. Their impact releasing powder... No toxic or explosive content.

 

On another note... The new enola gaye flash are "snap in the middle" making them incredibly small and light. I would imagine that using pipe insulation foam around one would cause an air seal in a 203 tube... All that would really be needed is a decent way to ignite them... Which should be extremely simple...

[Baz JJ]

It will come down to which sites will allow them. Most have a pyro clause which says anything other than this and that have to be approved by the management.

 

No point in buying them and they aren't cheap, until you know you can use them.

 

Would AW be able to sell them if they were contravening firearms laws ?

[Ian_Gere]

Has anyone heard anything about Danmu full steel GP-30 replicas?

...afaik only available from gunnerairsoft.com but firing any 40mm MOSCART and thus also these TAG nades.

 

I'm still concerned that it would make an AK too front-heavy for comfort, but probably less so than the D-Boys zamak effort which weighs in at a staggering 1.45Kg loaded.

[Ian_Gere]

It will come down to which sites will allow them. Most have a pyro clause which says anything other than this and that have to be approved by the management.

 

No point in buying them and they aren't cheap, until you know you can use them.

 

Would AW be able to sell them if they were contravening firearms laws ?

Yeah, Skirmish are pretty cool - so long as you're not a dick they'll let you use just about anything. They've allowed home made bangs partially buried and fired by radio det before - obviously they were sure that the bangs were not mental, but they were bloody loud!

 

It would depend on their (AW's or anyone else) interpretation of the relevant laws, eh?

 

Edit: what i mean is, the old bill have got more important things to be doing than chasing around after people selling airsoft pyros, so even if the legal position isn't 100% certain, it would take a pretty determined campaign of jobsworthery to actually prevent anyone selling them.

[Chock]

Right, well i think that what those of us who have been worrying about this have done once again is mis-conflate our toys with firearms, because in no way are these "cartridge", "bullet", or "capable of being used with a firearm". So happy days

 

Except that what it actually says, is: 'capable of being used with a firearm of any description', and in the eyes of the law, the term firearm is broader than we might suppose - everything from a PIAT to a blowpipe (and yes, it really does mention those). In that same bit of the guidelines to legislation from which that quote was taken, 'firearm' is described as literally any device of any description which can be converted to enable it to launch ammunition for which it was not intended, as an example of how bizarrely the legislation stretches examples of what that can mean, it gives the example of a Bren Gun being converted to a smooth bore single shot weapon (like anyone would ever try that). A more well known example of such a conversion which people genuinely did do on numerous occasions (as the tabloids delighted in reporting at the time), before they were removed from sale, was the Brocock cartridge air pistol revolver, which was very easily converted to fire .22 long cartridges with nothing more sophisticated than a 5.5mm reamer and a tweak to the firing pin, thus it was reclassified as a firearm, even though it wasn't one, but it was nevertheless covered by the mention of 'easily converted' weaponry in that legislation

 

So that certainly covers any airsoft weapon which was not originally designed, or legislated for, its ability to fire such different ammo. And that certainly includes ammo which detonates after it is fired, as is specifically mentioned. But even if none of that were so, any projectile which stores a charge that detonates after launch is almost certainly going to considered to be over the joule limit, since the definition of the joule limit for all weapons (including airguns and airsofts) specifically mentions the amount of energy the projectile possesses after it is fired, so the energy stored in any pyrotechnic charge of a projectile will also be counted and added to the kinetic energy it has. But even if that were not the case, consider the fact that pyrotechnics such as bangers, firecrackers, aeroplanes and all the other stuff we used to cheerfully chuck about in the streets in the Seventies, are now completely prohibited in the UK. The fact is, the law does not like pyrotechnics which can be launched (even by hand).

 

It's a bummer, but it's better to accept that idea that the Rozzers and Parliament will almost certainly scour the existing legislation to make it fit these things, rather than to get all excited about the possibilities at skirmishes, only to be disappointed further still. 'The Man' will undoubtedly push for a reference to them in the aforementioned document, as they do from time to time when something slips through. I'd put money on it.

[Baz JJ]

I think if they were contravening firearms laws, one of their rivals would have shopped them by now and they would gave received a visit telling them to withdraw them.

[Chock]

I think if they were contravening firearms laws, one of their rivals would have shopped them by now and they would gave received a visit telling them to withdraw them.

 

Who knows, maybe someone has? Changes to the Law invariably require a Bill to be drafted, presented to Parliament, debated, voted on, receive Royal Ascent, then written into the Law. It can happen fast, but it doesn't happen overnight when a country is governed by democracy.

 

Not trying to pour cold water on things just for the fun of it. I'd love to be able to use stuff like that, I just don't think we will be able to, or if we are, then not for long.

[Ian_Gere]

I'm going to come back to this after i've eaten and had a think, because, while i agree that if there's a way to stop fun with pyros, someone will find it, i also suspect that there must be a provision in the law which differentiates between pyros and explosive charges as defined as exploding munitions - because otherwise airbomb fireworks would be illegal, as would TLSFX mortar rounds.

[Chock]

Frankly, I think the only reason that fireworks haven't been banned from sale to the general public, is that they are supposed to be celebrating stopping an attempt to remove Parliament from the proceedings, and even the thickest MP on the planet (and God knows there are plenty to choose from) could see the irony in that one and how much flak they'd take for trying to argue it. There would probably be an outcry from us being stopped from having fireworks in our back gardens, since Joe Blow likes them. It's a different matter with replica weaponry; we are in a minority, and there are doubtless people out there who imagine that those of us with an interest in weaponry are one crap day at work away from going up a clocktower with a sniper rifle and letting rip on the public at large, when in reality we are nothing of the sort. And this is regardless of the fact that you could more easily kill someone with a sizable block of cheese than you could with an airsoft rifle.

[Ian_Gere]

OK, so having ruminated and cogitated, I've come to the conclusion that we are still worrying over nothing. While it is true that firearms legislation covers things other than what a dictionary would call a firearm, even tasers, it is very specific about things which propel projectiles from a barrel using expanding gas as propellant. I was going to look it up to be certain, because I cannot remember the exact figures, but then I realised I don't have to - it definitely talks about double figures of foot/pounds (14 maybe?). Anyway, these are made from very light polymer foam, just not bendy like a Nerf dart, and you can see them in flight...

 

So yeah, maybe they are carrying more than 1 Joule, or even than 2.34J (0.2g BB@500FPS), but those figures are not the subject of law outside NI anyway and even 10 foot/pounds = no way.

 

They definitely do not consider energetic potential in with those figures. If that were the case, something which was legal downstairs could be illegal upstairs due to gravitational potential energy. It was an interesting idea tho

 

Anyway, if people are using TAG nades in the UK, I want to be one of 'em! It's just a case of deciding which launcher to go for now and whether to go underslung or standalone.

[Chock]

I'd like to think you are right, but as I say, these things skate very close to many bits of the legislation, so I'm inclined to think we won't get them. But if we do, I'll be among the first to flash the cash because I'd really like an airsoft M79 blooper which was more than a glorified scatter gun, which is all it is now in airsoft form.

[joshcowin]

tbh i think the main problem with these would be the site insurance would be a bit funny about it.if the actual grenade holders (shell outer where you charge with gas) was cheaper i would buy a couple and some smokes as they would be a game changer at range