is this me being a perfectionist?

[Esoterick]

I remember that i is a valid way to hold a long gun in CQB situations if you have to go there with it. I can't remember if it was the AK or the M16 (with full stock), but I definitely saw it taught like that to real soldiers. Searching for photos...

 

I was going to say this, but outside of those situations I don't really see the point. I'm not sure if it's taught but i've heard yanks talk about tucking the butt of an M16 under their armpit or over their shoulder when roomclearing.

[jcheeseright]

5.56 doesn't really kick that hard, if you're strong and proficient with the weapon then for extremely close up stuff a 100% solid shooting stance isn't entirely necessary.

[Black Death]

I'm no expert in guns (airsoft or real steel) but I do understand a fair bit about how the body moves and reacts to stresses. Quite often in sports and activities a natural position or movement is formed or developed based on the forces against the body or the balance needed to achieve it. When shooting a REAL gun it's deffo a good/natural idea to shoulder the weapon properly to counteract the recoil. You may get it wrong the first time but even if you handed m14s to wild Indians with no training whatsoever and monitored they're progress, soon enough through trial and error (and injury lol) they would aquire decent technique.

In airsoft there is no kick (98% of guns) so for someone with no experience of handling or who hasn't really made an effort to learn this position can feel quite normal. Add to that perhaps weak upper body strength and they are even more likely to want to place the weight as vertically down they're body as possible rather then support it properly.

Does it bother me whilst skirmishing..... No not really. But I do find it odd when someone spends a heck of a lot of money on guns n gear but they're stance is girly lol

#military press for stronger shoulders :-)

[clumpyedge]

thing is ive seen pictures of what most would call "hardcore airsofters" and even they do it...

 

like i say its probably just the perfectionist in me... but dont even get me started on trigger fingers haha!

 

 

(i dont know why it annoys me, it just does.)

[JackHG]

It happens in Archery all the time. Someone will use variation on their anchor or release and seem to shoot well. Others copy it not knowing why it was done in the first place or even what effect it is supposed to have.

Anyone who changes their anchor point on a regular basis has obviously not been told that concistanty is the key to accuracy..

[CaptainSwoop]

Anyone who changes their anchor point on a regular basis has obviously not been told that concistanty is the key to accuracy..

 

That's the point. They read too many forums or watch an international event and think 'if I do that I will be better.'

 

Not for nothing is archery called the 'Art of repetition'

[Airsoft-Ed]

I often rest the very bottom of my stock very near the top of my shoulder, it's a pain to shoulder the full stock on my full shoulder with an Osprey on, and when no one else is going to the effort of doing it properly either, it just seems like a disadvantage. Brings the sights to your head, instead of head to the sights, easier, faster, more comfortable; the only reason people don't do that with real steel is precisely because of the recoil, if real guns didn't recoil, then all these "shooting stances" would be totally different.

I've never seen anyone hold anything like a bazooka though, not ever. When I show my guns to family members they tend to tuck the stock under their arm pit and then try to become on-the-spot contortionists to get down the sights, or they'll do this really weird thing where they lean back a stupid amount and hold the gun out in front of them, as if the sights only work from 3ft away lol.

The guns have no recoil and we're playing a game though... Who cares? Unless it's dark looking down the side of the gun is often just as easy as sighting in, sometimes easier because you can see the immediate effects of the hop better.

I'd expect everyone to act accordingly at a milsim even though, it wouldn't be much of a military simulation if no one was doing anything the correct, real life way.

[clumpyedge]

one thing i did thing of is if your moving and holding the gun like that and you have for instance optics on your weapon then if you did fall that is going to go straight to your eye socket... where as if you were shouldered then it wouldnt...

 

i knew it would probably be only me that gets annoyed by it (i say annoyed but its more a little niggle really)

[Black Death]

Slight deviation of topic.... But has anyone else noticed some peeps stance has become very square with both shoulders facing 90 degrees forwards and the gun pointing straight 90 degrees out of the right shoulder?

Keep seeing this and thought it was odd but again, I guess it doesn't really matter. I prefer a more bladed stance just because it reduces me as a target quite slot and my balance is better. Also if one foot is behind the other I'm ready to run back or forwards easily

[Airsoft-Ed]

Slight deviation of topic.... But has anyone else noticed some peeps stance has become very square with both shoulders facing 90 degrees forwards and the gun pointing straight 90 degrees out of the right shoulder?

Keep seeing this and thought it was odd but again, I guess it doesn't really matter. I prefer a more bladed stance just because it reduces me as a target quite slot and my balance is better. Also if one foot is behind the other I'm ready to run back or forwards easily

That's actually become doctrine in the military now, your body armour is most effective if it's facing the incoming fire directly, as you have more on your front and back than your sides.

[Black Death]

Sweet reply! I'm glad you've shared that :-)

[M_P]

As ed says, also the reason a large number of new pistol grips are at a more vertical angle. As it's more comfortable to hold while.at 90* with one than the older style. It's easier for people wearing plate carriers with wider straps to do so too.

[loctez]

Most of the time I have seen people do this is shooting over cover, your only really exposing a small portion of your head and it is much easier to get up/down. An aeg does not have any substantial recoil and using the sights is not always necessary. I think it's fair for people to hold their guns however they like to get the best position/angle as long as it's not just plain blind firing and the weapon is under control.

[ocabj]

Its called skeletal support

 

...

 

 

I registered on this site after I saw some hits coming to my webserver from this specific URL. I saw the discussion and wanted to put in some input.

Anyway, that youtube video and the URL to http://www.ocabj.net/use-bone-not-muscle-rifle-shooting-and-photography/ was recorded and written by me a few years back.

 

With regards to how you should shoulder your stock, there are variations on which to do this, depending on the rifle platform and depending on what kind of shooting you're doing.

 

The skeletal support method I demonstrated in the video is meant to provide the most stable support for a standing shot with no other support (e.g. sling). If your only concern is consistent and accurate shots from the unsupported standing position, then the way described in that video and article is the most ideal. This is what you will see in what we in the United States call "High Power Rifle" matches, also known as "Across the Course", where one stage of fire is 200 yard unsupported standing, 20 rounds in 20 minutes slow fire with a 7 inch 10-ring and a 3 inch X-ring. In those matches, you're trying to put 20 rounds into a 7 inch circle at 200 yards from standing.

 

A little tidbit on how high the stock is on the shoulder, what people need to understand is that the AR15/M16 platform we use in High Power is a "Service Rifle" and has to follow strict rules with regards to the configuration. One being that we us the A2 stock with A2 sights (although the sights are competition grade). The most consistent cheek weld with the A2 configuration is always going to be nose to the charging handle, and the best way to shoulder the stock is to get the sights to the eye, not the head down to the sights. Getting the rifle to the eye will keep the head and neck straight. This improves balance. For most people to do this with the A2 service rifle, this means getting the toe of the stock really high on the body. Fortunately, the AR15/M16 recoil is little to non-existent. Also, it helps when A2 competition service rifles are heavily weighted (we add lead weights to the gun, often increasing a standard A2 rifle which usually weighs ~9 lbs up to 18lbs or more).

 

To give a better understanding of what I mean by keeping the head and neck straight for balance, here's an experiment. Stand on one foot, close your eyes, now tilt your head slightly to one side. What happens to your balance? I'm going to bet that you start to fall towards that side and you're body will instinctively try to muscle counterbalance. This is what you don't want happening when you shoot slow fire standing in High Power Rifle competitions. If you tilt your head to the rifle sights to get good cheekweld in standing, you mess up your natural balance and are introducing 'muscling' into your position, which leads to instability over time as you fatigue in the position.

 

That being said, in a combat or dynamic scenario, shooting like this isn't practical. You're going to be moving, engaging multiple targets and various distances and directions, so the competition "slow fire" stance really isn't going work. So what do you do? Change stance and holds. Instead of blading the body to the target, you'll square up more to the target, bring the stock more into the pectoral muscle than in the shoulder. This it style that you'll see being currently taught by various weapons manipulations instructors (e.g. Magpul Industries, Haley Strategic, Costa Ludus, Vickers Tactical, the list goes on).

 

I advocate using the type of stance and hold for the situation at hand, whether it be competition - High Power Rifle "Across the Course", 3-Gun, etc, or combat/dynamic.

 

 

 

Self by ocabj, on Flickr

[CaptainSwoop]

It's all fashion. Have a look this time next year it will all have changed again.

[Lozart]

 

I registered on this site after I saw some hits coming to my webserver from this specific URL. I saw the discussion and wanted to put in some input.

Anyway, that youtube video and the URL to http://www.ocabj.net/use-bone-not-muscle-rifle-shooting-and-photography/ was recorded and written by me a few years back.

 

With regards to how you should shoulder your stock, there are variations on which to do this, depending on the rifle platform and depending on what kind of shooting you're doing.

 

The skeletal support method I demonstrated in the video is meant to provide the most stable support for a standing shot with no other support (e.g. sling). If your only concern is consistent and accurate shots from the unsupported standing position, then the way described in that video and article is the most ideal. This is what you will see in what we in the United States call "High Power Rifle" matches, also known as "Across the Course", where one stage of fire is 200 yard unsupported standing, 20 rounds in 20 minutes slow fire with a 7 inch 10-ring and a 3 inch X-ring. In those matches, you're trying to put 20 rounds into a 7 inch circle at 200 yards from standing.

 

A little tidbit on how high the stock is on the shoulder, what people need to understand is that the AR15/M16 platform we use in High Power is a "Service Rifle" and has to follow strict rules with regards to the configuration. One being that we us the A2 stock with A2 sights (although the sights are competition grade). The most consistent cheek weld with the A2 configuration is always going to be nose to the charging handle, and the best way to shoulder the stock is to get the sights to the eye, not the head down to the sights. Getting the rifle to the eye will keep the head and neck straight. This improves balance. For most people to do this with the A2 service rifle, this means getting the toe of the stock really high on the body. Fortunately, the AR15/M16 recoil is little to non-existent. Also, it helps when A2 competition service rifles are heavily weighted (we add lead weights to the gun, often increasing a standard A2 rifle which usually weighs ~9 lbs up to 18lbs or more).

 

To give a better understanding of what I mean by keeping the head and neck straight for balance, here's an experiment. Stand on one foot, close your eyes, now tilt your head slightly to one side. What happens to your balance? I'm going to bet that you start to fall towards that side and you're body will instinctively try to muscle counterbalance. This is what you don't want happening when you shoot slow fire standing in High Power Rifle competitions. If you tilt your head to the rifle sights to get good cheekweld in standing, you mess up your natural balance and are introducing 'muscling' into your position, which leads to instability over time as you fatigue in the position.

 

That being said, in a combat or dynamic scenario, shooting like this isn't practical. You're going to be moving, engaging multiple targets and various distances and directions, so the competition "slow fire" stance really isn't going work. So what do you do? Change stance and holds. Instead of blading the body to the target, you'll square up more to the target, bring the stock more into the pectoral muscle than in the shoulder. This it style that you'll see being currently taught by various weapons manipulations instructors (e.g. Magpul Industries, Haley Strategic, Costa Ludus, Vickers Tactical, the list goes on).

 

I advocate using the type of stance and hold for the situation at hand, whether it be competition - High Power Rifle "Across the Course", 3-Gun, etc, or combat/dynamic.

 

 

 

Self by ocabj, on Flickr

 

Thanks for joining us, some interesting stuff there.